All The Doom Threads Are Strange To Me

[Erzaa]

Do people forget that Bozja added like what 45? Or so alliance raid quality bosses

Like I’m genuinely confused when someone goes “I despised Bozja it had nothing I liked but I’m also excited for the next alliance raid”, what do you even like doing in an alliance raid in that case……..gposing in the Boses arena or something

Bozja gave us more bosses than all of the 3 variant dungeons put together AND an entire nother alliance raid series on top of that that had an alliance raid quality story, I think it’s hard to argue on the quality of Bozja even if you don’t like fate grinding

What 45 Alliance Raid bosses were added exactly? The raids were fun, I'll give you that, but Notorious Monsters are not fun past the third time. It's just a FATE with a stronger monster. That's it. But that's the same for any piece of content, what raid is still fun for the upteenth time? Even the best Alliance Raid in the game, Nier, becomes stale and boring, running it 40 odd times to get that one mage dress.

Perhaps you're into, do FATE 60 times and CE 30 times for those books, axles, crystals or whatever silly thing, but I wasn't. It was a drag, I hated every second of it. But I did it, and I didn't complain on the forums about, why must I do this?

[Supersnow845]

What 45 Alliance Raid bosses were added exactly? The raids were fun, I'll give you that, but Notorious Monsters are not fun past the third time. It's just a FATE with a stronger monster. That's it. But that's the same for any piece of content, what raid is still fun for the upteenth time? Even the best Alliance Raid in the game, Nier, becomes stale and boring, running it 40 odd times to get that one mage dress.

Every critical engagement is at the quality of an alliance raid boss

So you have

-30 unique critical engagements
-3(4) Boses from castrum (I won’t include Lyon as a seperate boss)(if the two first bosses count separately is debatable)
-4(6) bosses from DRN (dahu and ghost are debatable)
-4(5) Boses from dal (again debatable on the first split boss)

So 41 at the bottom end, 45 at the top end, I’m not even discussing fates here, I think people underestimate the complexity of bozja’s fates but I’m intentionally omitting them to prove a point, an alliance raid has 12 Boses, so Bozja functionally gave us 3.5 whole extra alliance raids, I cannot overstate how much extra casual content of undeniable quality (since a lot of it is modelled off the universally beloved ivalice) that is

[Erzaa]

Every critical engagement is at the quality of an alliance raid boss

So you have

-30 unique critical engagements
-3(4) Boses from castrum (I won’t include Lyon as a seperate boss)(if the two first bosses count separately is debatable)
-4(6) bosses from DRN (dahu and ghost are debatable)
-4(5) Boses from dal (again debatable on the first split boss)

So 41 at the bottom end, 45 at the top end, I’m not even discussing fates here, I think people underestimate the complexity of bozja’s fates but I’m intentionally omitting them to prove a point, an alliance raid has 12 Boses, so Bozja functionally gave us 3.5 whole extra alliance raids, I cannot overstate how much extra casual content of undeniable quality (since a lot of it is modelled off the universally beloved ivalice) that is

Which you're going to do, 180 FATEs and 90 CEs, in repetition, over and over and over, to collect those silly items for what's essentially a glamour item. You've seen them once, you've seen them twice, you've seen them 20 times. And then what? Just sit there and pray for this hell to be over.

And Variant dungeons aren't that different. They're super fun the first few times, even seeing the minor mechanic changes here and there on separate paths, but then you still need to repeat them over and over and over if you plan on getting all the rewards. Getting all 12 paths isn't even enough to get enough currency to buy all rewards.

When did repeating old content ad nauseum become new quality content?

[Supersnow845]

Which you're going to do, 180 FATEs and 90 CEs, in repetition, over and over and over, to collect those silly items for what's essentially a glamour item. You've seen them once, you've seen them twice, you've seen them 20 times. And then what? Just sit there and pray for this hell to be over.

I mean I don’t see how repetition of something makes the inherent quality of said thing any worse, hell a good chunk of arguments arguing about the content on here usually focus on “well have you done this random achievement that amounts to a meaningless grind”

Hell you can make the argument the core alliance series is pointless, what does myths actually give you in the long run, all content is inherently optional so I’m not sure why that’s an argument one way or the other

The design of the relic steps is entirely external the argument of the quality of the content Bozja added as is variant, this isn’t about repetition of said content, this is about entirely unique content Bozja added

[Erzaa]

I mean I don’t see how repetition of something makes the inherent quality of said thing any worse, hell a good chunk of arguments arguing about the content on here usually focus on “well have you done this random achievement that amounts to a meaningless grind”

Hell you can make the argument the core alliance series is pointless, what does myths actually give you in the long run, all content is inherently optional so I’m not sure why that’s an argument one way or the other

The argument is that, it's the exact same content as any other expansion. That's it. It's really fun the first time, it's fun the second time, it's enjoyable the fifth time, and then it's a snoozefest that you just want to get over and done with the 20th time. At least this time around, the 20th or 24th time, is the last time. You don't need to repeat it for 1,5 months and pretend that's quality.

The CEs were fun the first few times, learning the fight, dying to them. The raids were fun, because they felt like a real assault on a military base. They're all quality fights, the first few times. The Variant bosses were the same, especially that Samurai person, which I died to endless times at first. Even after figuring out how he works, it was still confusing finding the safe spot.

How is repeating them 180 times better than repeating them 20 times though? What exactly makes those quality content?

[Supersnow845]

The argument is that, it's the exact same content as any other expansion. That's it. It's really fun the first time, it's fun the second time, it's enjoyable the fifth time, and then it's a snoozefest that you just want to get over and done with the 20th time. At least this time around, the 20th or 24th time, is the last time. You don't need to repeat it for 1,5 months and pretend that's quality.

The CEs were fun the first few times, learning the fight, dying to them. The raids were fun, because they felt like a real assault on a military base. They're all quality fights, the first few times. The Variant bosses were the same, especially that Samurai person, which I died to endless times at first. Even after figuring out how he works, it was still confusing finding the safe spot.

How is repeating them 180 times better than repeating them 20 times though? What exactly makes those quality content?

If you do them once and only once you are getting 3.5 extra alliance raid series worth of high quality bosses, where is the equivalent to that in EW’s battle content

Variant certainly doesn’t have it, variant has 12 bosses between 3 dungeons, if I generously include the 9 EO Boses (and I’m stretching it, DD bosses have like 1.5 mechanics) EW still falls 13 bosses short of ShB not even accounting for how much variability lost actions add

Even if you do this content once, it’s still not remotely comparable

[Erzaa]

If you do them once and only once you are getting 3.5 extra alliance raid series worth of high quality bosses, where is the equivalent to that in EW’s battle content

Variant certainly doesn’t have it, variant has 12 bosses between 3 dungeons, if I generously include the 9 EO Boses (and I’m stretching it, DD bosses have like 1.5 mechanics) EW still falls 13 bosses short of ShB not even accounting for how much variability lost actions add

Even if you do this content once, it’s still not remotely comparable

I disagree.

Variant fights have fewer bosses, but they all have mechanics, you'll likely die the first time if you go in blind, probably die more than once even, different choices will also change their mechanics a little, which will throw you off.

As for Deep Dungeons are, to me, much more fun, because no run is exactly the same. It's more than just, oh boss has so and so mechanic.

You won't always have the same poms, the enemies will spawn in different locations, patrols come and go and can cause a run to go bad. All the mobs and bosses have to learned individually, because they can all kill you, and every time you reach a boss fight, your heart is racing because you don't know this fight, it's your first time reaching them, and you might die and lose all progress and need to restart. The next time you'll be just a little better, just a little faster, but you also just might get unlucky.

You're still adding up numbers and calling it quality. More, doesn't equal better.

If you do the Bozja CEs, yes, you have more bosses, and they all have unique mechanics, which you will learn and get the hang of after a few deaths. Then you need to repeat them 90 or 180 times or whatever to get your reward.

If you do the Variant Dungeons and Deep Dungeons, yes, you have fewer bosses, and they all have unique mechanics, which you will learn and get the hang of after a few deaths. You need to repeat Variant Dungeons, what? maybe 30 times to get your reward. That means less grind, less chance of you getting bored and frustrated at how long this is taking, progress faster, complete the content and feel good you beat something, got what you wanted out of it, and go find something else to do.

This is entertainment, not a job. If I want to repeat the same thing every single day for months or years on end, all I need to do is go to work in the morning.

I mean, like... You repeat roulettes daily, you repeat the same content over and over daily, and then you get into situations where everyone just wants this over and done with as quick as possible. The tank doesn't pull wall to wall? Complain about tank players wasting your time. The healer isn't keeping up? Complain about how healers are wasting your time. The dps isn't using AOE rotation? Complain that dps are wasting your time. That doesn't come from roulettes not having variety, or having bad content. It comes from the fact you've done all that content so many times, it's boring to you.

Bozja/Eureka zones are no different. You're just repeating content over and over, except now, because Endwalker's content is completed a little sooner, all of a sudden, ah! now the game is bad, I'm not repeating things so there's no grind and no grind means no quality.

But how many people complained that Bozja/Eureka were miserable experiences in previous expansions? That they were boring to do?

[Banriikku]

I mean I don’t see how repetition of something makes the inherent quality of said thing any worse, hell a good chunk of arguments arguing about the content on here usually focus on “well have you done this random achievement that amounts to a meaningless grind”

Hell you can make the argument the core alliance series is pointless, what does myths actually give you in the long run, all content is inherently optional so I’m not sure why that’s an argument one way or the other

THIS.... if reptition is bad then Dungeons, Raids, leveling a char, crafting, gathering, fishing, etc. all are bad. This is not true. This is way too generalised. The way its done matters. I love DnD, but if you look at it you can summarize its always the same on a certain level. You want to differentiate between "unfun grind" and a repeating task that is fun and entertaining. Both fall under the definition of grind but are not the same.

[Jeeqbit]

Which you're going to do, 180 FATEs and 90 CEs, in repetition, over and over and over, to collect those silly items for what's essentially a glamour item. You've seen them once, you've seen them twice, you've seen them 20 times. And then what? Just sit there and pray for this hell to be over.

They are good because, unlike farming Expert dungeons all week, farming Bozja meant you got a variety of different bosses in different orders. It wasn't set in stone which CE would be next or if certain CEs would even spawn while you were there. There was so much variety, whereas if you do an Expert roulette, it's the same 3 bosses, in the same order.

SE did put the degree of development into CEs that they put into dungeon or trial bosses. Internally, that is the sort of work they put in. It wasn't just "let's give it a conal AoE to spam" like fates.

[Erzaa]

They are good because, unlike farming Expert dungeons all week, farming Bozja meant you got a variety of different bosses in different orders. It wasn't set in stone which CE would be next or if certain CEs would even spawn while you were there. There was so much variety, whereas if you do an Expert roulette, it's the same 3 bosses, in the same order.

SE did put the degree of development into CEs that they put into dungeon or trial bosses. Internally, that is the sort of work they put in. It wasn't just "let's give it a conal AoE to spam" like fates.

Agreed! There was some randomness to them, at first. But eventually, they're finite. You're going to see them all, learn them all then repeat them all ad nauseum, they're going to get old, just like any other raid, any other roulette, any other piece of content in the game.

Why is it better for someone to repeat content 100 times and that's quality, instead of 20 times, get your reward and be on your merry way?