Red Mage: I am not a Back line class

[SwordCoheir]

Wat? I thought RDM was just supposed to be a swordsman with debuffing spells only?

Nah RDM lore in all the games were a highly diversified class that wielded roughly 3/4th - 4/5ths the power of normal classes but had the ability to use participate in combat and use both schools of magic. FFXI's RDM however went through a series of changes in the early pre-RotZ age, and was eventually rebuilt with it's core purpose as an enfeebler when advanced jobs were first introduced. Unfortunately FFXI's evolution has not been kind to RDM and much of that versatility went underutilized and became underpowered as updates for RDM stagnated.

[JTSpender]

FWIW, if you took the most recent player's poll, it sounds like they might have a general concept for the RDM. One of the options from the "what new classes do you want" question was "A new type of magic-user that uses enfeebling magic and close-range attacks. (ex. Red Mage, etc.)".

I find it unlikely that from a game mechanic perspective they're going to fit what people imagine as a traditional Final Fantasy RDM "jack-of-all-trades" (as a career RDM or hybrid class player, I hate hate hate that term) which is going to melee and cast both Cure and Fire. It's possible, but... that's how FFXI's RDM ended up where they ended up.

And in general, doing hybrids well in MMOs and having them not either be strictly worse than bringing a dedicated class or totally OP because they can do everything is really hard. Hybrids work well in games with small groups but when you start getting to large-group content stuff kinda goes out the window. You can sort of pull it off by either having state-based hybrids (see Scholar from FFXI or Druid from WoW) or cheat by giving them something absolutely necessary (lolRefresh) or a totally different role in large group play (crowd control is one example).

All that said, like a lot of people I would totally love to see something that looked a lot like Dancer, which used one set of abilities to build up a resource which gets expended with a different kind of ability. Honestly, as long as there is the base flavor of having something that looks like fencer-y melee skills (these may or may not actually be real, TP-using weapon skills) lead into something that looks like magey spells (which may or may not be real, MP using spells) I will be happy. Frankly, even if the only magic they get at all is debuff spells I'm fine with that; I'd much much rather they err on the side of magic-fencer flavor than jack-of-all-trades flavor.

My only other big concern is how they solve the itemization problem so they don't end up being magic fencers in stupid mage robes all the time.

[Jinko]

My only other big concern is how they solve the itemization problem so they don't end up being magic fencers in stupid mage robes all the time.

You could have them wear Bliaud and Gaskins, I think that would suit a RDM more than a full on robe.

Just have the robes unfavourable to RDM/Fencer.

[Babydoll]

OP you are right. RDM should have been what BLU was in FFXI. RDM in the other FF's is front line, can wear heavy/medium armors..can dish out good damage and help backup with some spells while BLU usually had light armor and was always back row doing stuff to support the party and it had some good spells like BLM type.

I REALLLLY hope they don't ruin RDM like they did in XI in XIV...

[Tahldon]

You could have them wear Bliaud and Gaskins, I think that would suit a RDM more than a full on robe.

Just have the robes unfavourable to RDM/Fencer.

Yeah, I was thinking along these same lines, myself, in terms of what they would wear. The Devs would have a lot of work on their hands though to implement Favorable RDM clothes too, but they're good at that sort of thing so it's no biggie. Although... I do wonder if the primary stat for them would be the "Enfeebling Magic" one, being as though "Healing Magic Potency" is directed towards CNJ/WHM and "Attack Magic Potency" is catered more towards THM/BLM and all.

Seems only right to me, but JT makes a good point. I'd like the class to be more than it was in reference to what people describe it as in FFXI.

(And in case you all haven't noticed, I didn't get knee deep in FFXI as some of you so that's why my questions are a little... naive?)

[SwordCoheir]

You could have them wear Bliaud and Gaskins, I think that would suit a RDM more than a full on robe.

Just have the robes unfavourable to RDM/Fencer.

Well RDM's do generally have access to all but the heaviest of armors so jerkin, scale, tunic armors would work well too.

If there was going to be a problem with MKT/RDM's main weapon (most likely being Sword types are taken by GLA/PLD) I'd say you could have Epee/Rapier weapons as their own type, and a parrying dagger as an offhand for kind of a dual wield/parry like setup. You could hit like a PLD, but damage would be supplemented by the addition of the dagger to do damage so it would be more speed auto-attack DPS focused than big number WS focused.

Of course my fear is scaling between Sword type weapons vs other DD weapons is growing so it might hurt both jobs badly when the level cap is raised.

But that's just throwing some ideas out there.

[Jinko]

Yea I agree with that, I listed some skills and spells above which i think would be suitable to this class/job, I think the chance to inflict random status on enemies would be pretty sweet for RDM as these have been removed from the game since the battle reform and it would be a nice way to get them back into the game.

So enfeebling could increase the chance for those to land or perhaps the damage per tick or something.

[Lux_Rayna]

That's all i could think of for now if you have any other idea's so Red Mage wont get stuck in a back line position like in XI. Please give some feedback, or suggestions.

I really don't want to see this class to feel like an Pure Mage again.

The solution is actually really really really simple. Do not give Red Mage BLM/WHM spells. What I mean is, a RDM can have access to THM/Cnj abilities (like PLD has access to cnj moves), but thats it. RDM job spells should all be enfeebles/melee stuff. Of course with the changes to CC SE might have to get creative with certain moves, so RDM can do something besides poison spam.

[SwordCoheir]

Yea I agree with that, I listed some skills and spells above which i think would be suitable to this class/job, I think the chance to inflict random status on enemies would be pretty sweet for RDM as these have been removed from the game since the battle reform and it would be a nice way to get them back into the game.

So enfeebling could increase the chance for those to land or perhaps the damage per tick or something.

Aye maybe WS-> WS-> Spell

RDM might only have one combo for the front and two for the back, but any Enfeeble could be cast with any of the combos and depending on which combo pattern you use would affect the Combo Bonus on the Enfeeble cast.

Combo Bonus for spells could be like.
-Combo Setup 1: Increases Enfeebling Potency/Duration Massively
-Combo Setup 2: Damages Enemy (element of spell cast would vary based on Enfeeble but comparable to Thunder in damage)
-Combo Setup 3: Guaranteed chance to land Enfeeble at unresisted duration.

Something like that maybe?

[Viritess]

Must shoot forums mechanics!

But i digress. I like the idea of WS>Spell and Spell>WS

WHat i'd like to see is Weapon skills that cause the debuff. and the spells that lets say, Invert, the debuff to a party buff for the same effect on the combo. for example

Your WS "XXXXX" causes Blind.

it combos into your "Magic Inversion" spell that takes that blind effect and applies it as a party buff +X/+X% resistance to blind.

Aslong as theres many choices as far as combo trees instead of the more linear routs many current classes have it can be instead of a "Jack of all trades" type of class to a versitile Buff/de-buffing class.

Could also give a WS skill that causes Poison damage. then the "inversion" spell can make that a party regen effect.

I think a mechanic like thiss will not only make the RDM fun and interesting on its own. but also give it a position as a melee caster. since WS will be needed to do its magical job.

Add in some spells that perhaps do magical Debuffs, and then can be used for inversion. but perhaps not on a combo. to "urge" folks to melee.

ANd weather the Debuff pre "inversion" needs to be used up or not i would expect would be a Balance issue, and could be worked out.

Overall the Above is what i'd love to see in the RDM class.