How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

[Renathras]

Just confidently incorrect as always. Making healing more difficult would put strain on people who just spam medica 2 over and over.

No, it wouldn't. That's kind of the point. Why was P5S "hard"? It wasn't because our healing kits can't deal with the damage. It was because people were used to just popping some oGCDs and being done with healing. When a fight actually demanded people use GCDs for it, they weren't used to that. On the other hand, know who didn't have a problem with that fight? The people that used GCD heals all the time.

So the same thing will happen as with your hyperbole position on damage kits.

Arguably not. That's kind of the point.

Figure it out.

No, you tell me. Because it looks like you accused me of something unfairly, when it was pointed out to you I'm the one person that doesn't apply to, you realized you couldn't defend it, and so instead of just offering an apology from being too quick to accuse, you tried a zippy one-liner to cover the fact you attacked me unfairly.

What Job am I saying to take from you?
We have made one new Healer Job that, to be fair, is a clone of SCH (just EW SCH instead of SB SCH for...whatever reason).
Which one? Because I've already said SCH and AST should go back to their SB forms. Do you disagree with that?

???????

It's called having a priority list. How do you defeat a boss? Bringing his hp to zero. How do you do that? By damaging it.

Alright, let's slow it down a bit.

So you don't need tanks or defensive CDs? And you don't need healing? So games should only be DPS races where the boss has a health bar, one-shot mechanics, and otherwise nothing else?

I KNOW you aren't arguing for that. So on the priority list, the very first thing is "keep the party alive". You cannot get the boss HP to zero if all your party members are dead. Thus the top priority of any party is not dying. That's the first priority.

The second priority is controlling the boss. If the boss is rampaging across the battlefield one-shotting squishies left and right, the party is probably still going to die, isn't going to be able to resolve mechanics successfully, and isn't going to get the boss HY to zero.

The third priority, once party members aren't dead and the tanks have the boss under control, is mastering boss fight mechanics, because even if you're able to take some hits and survive, Vuln Stacks are going to violate keeping the party alive, and Damage Downs are going to cause the fourth priority to fail.

The fourth priority is bringing the boss HP to zero. Once you have the party staying alive, the boss not rampaging out of control, and party members not dying or getting damage downs (or possibly even a bit of that but MOST of it tamped down), the goal is to take the boss's HP to zero for the clear.

This is the order of events for prog, with arguably the first two points being of equal value, and the first and third points being key to progression. Once that is accomplished, you move for the fourth one.

The GOAL is to kill the boss. But the priority to get there is "keep party alive, keep boss under control, execute mechanics (can't do this if dead), kill boss".

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And then we get into the "how can we derail the thread today by lying about Ren" phase of the post.

My position isn't "equal results". My position is "if you propose and change and say it isn't going to hurt people, that means they must be able to do what they are doing now after the change". If you propose a law and say it won't have any negative impacts on people's lives, but people aren't allowed to do things that they do now that they enjoy, then you're lying. It's really that simple.

Note what I said to her. I did NOT say she could not hold the view she had NOR that she could not say it was net beneficial. I said she needed to admit it WOULD hurt some people. As I said, LITERALLY EVERY proposal has some downsides. This weird desire to insist yours does not makes no sense to me, and it's dishonest.

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I don't say everyone is wrong and I'm the only one who is right. This is yet another lie.

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Consider that a lot of the hate I get is from people that REALLY want something, and see me as arguing against it. And it happens that, of the active posters here, a lot of them want that same thing. Instead of disagreeing agreeably, they frequently take shots at anyone who disagrees with them. The reason I have so much hate is because I'm stubborn enough to take it and keep going. Note whenever anyone else suggests what I do - as there have been others - they get the dogpile treatment, too. The difference is, they either say something to the effect of not wanting to fight about it and leave the discussion, or say people are being unduly hostile to them and leave the discussion, or bow to the mob and...leave the discussion. The reason I get so much hate is that I neither capitulate to the mob nor run tail betwixt legs.

Look at the replies to me. MANY of them don't address a single point I raise. They're just namecalling in various forms. SOME do. Those people I respect. Roe and me disagree strongly and don't get along, but we'll generally discuss each other's posts in a respectful way. Sometimes she gets snarky, sometimes I get agitated, but neither of us treat each other with vitriol. Contrast that with Saraide's replies to me, which consistently lie/misrepresent what I say, often times are just insults without any point at all, and studiously avoid any of the topics of the discussion, and often seem to be extensive attempts to "gotcha" me in an effort to discredit me personally (ad hominem fallacy) instead of addressing my arguments.

Aravell has had good AND bad discussions with me in the past. I came to her defense once when she was being attacked by people, too. Also note there are threads and replies and posts - like the "Would you rather healers get more complex healing kits or more complex DPS kits?" thread - where people AREN'T "sick of how (I) act" nor getting in fights with me. So clearly "the common factor" ISN'T me.

The common factor is when people abandon discussion and move to insults, which is something some people do when they get frustrated someone won't capitulate to their demands. As you say, ignore the hecklers, and you KNOW since you've read all these threads there are people that straight up heckle me. There's no rhyme nor reason to it other than they disagree and they don't care to have a discussion or be agreeable and accept differences of opinion.

It also doesn't help that people repeatedly lie and misrepresent what I say. Once or twice could be an accident, but look at how many posts "quote" me saying things in direct opposition to what I've said. The one right above yours, the poster came into the discussion accusing me of being heartless and not caring when SCH lost its DPS kit in ShB and not giving any accommodation to them, so called me a hypocrite...when my position this entire time is that something was taken from SCH players, it should not have been, and I want them to have it back. I even supplied the quotes showing it.

How is it MY FAULT when people are literally making up things to accuse me of saying that I've never said AND that I am on record opposing? How can I make it more clear than the dozens of times I blatantly and clearly spell it out? You can't blame my "attitude" for people not reading what I write and/or outright making things up to strawman me with. Not when I've been explicit that my position is the opposite of what I'm being accused of and they keep accusing me of it anyway.

But you know what isn't discussion? You know what does alienate people? Posts like this: "Take a good look in the mirror mate, you got the answer to a lot of your problems there."

Ren and Titanman and those types (especially the people who get weirdly political) are why the forums are such a meme.

Afraid you've got it wrong, there.

The forums are a meme because of posts like yours - that go after individuals, often by name, in an attempt to ridicule and silence any dissent from the gestalt. There are threads here that are solid discussions. This one and the other healer one both.

Know where the discussion breaks down?

When people decide to call people "absurdly stupid" and start attacking individual posters instead of their arguments.

I mean, SERIOUSLY think about it for a minute.

Your post here, how does it contribute to the discussion of healer and encounter design? You didn't even mention either topic. You lumped me in with Titanman, who's an actual troll and went out of his way to harass people creating dozens of alt accounts to like and promote his own posts while trying to turn people against various forum posters and getting multiple accounts banned just to create more to keep heckling people. Your post and the two above it, which ones are talking about healer design and the game?

On the other hand, what do you see in my posts where I'm NOT having to defend myself from such attacks (which are made against me, not by me)? Well, me talking about game mechanics, why some positions are good and others less good, what the costs and benefits of various suggestions are, and so on.

That is, I engage in "solid discussion" and get heckled to the moon and back - including by you - yet you say I'm the problem, not people like you doing that.

THAT is why these forums are such a meme. They were a meme long before I started posting here because it was this way well before I arrived on the scene.

And you know the REALLY sad thing?

For all the people antagonistic to me, I'm already meeting them 75% of the way there. I'm not the one saying don't change anything, absolutely no more damage buttons on healers, etc. SOME OTHER PEOPLE ARE and do. But I'm most of the way there.

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For my part, I do want to, and do attempt to, have discussions.

When I come into these threads, my posts are on topic, and I rarely will say anything about someone else unless they've started attacking me, and generally only after I've tried gently countering their accusations against my character and they get into outright lying.

Left to my own devices, I talk mechanics and specific concerns with proposals/benefits to proposals.

I do get heated sometimes, but I try to reign it in, and when you have half a dozen consistent anti-fans heckling you, I wonder if you'd do better. But I am the one consistently trying to draw discussions back onto the tracks; it's the people antagonistic to me that want to continue to make threads about me.

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TO WHICH END: So is this.

So I won't be engaging with it further. If you guys want to keep insulting me, you need to look in the mirror and ask yourselves why. For my part:

I like healing and healer kits as they are.
But I recognize some people do not.
So I think we should change some of them for people that are upset so they can be happy.
While also not changing the ones that are fine now and enjoyed so that people who aren't upset can also be happy.
That way, everyone can be happy together.

And I legitimately will never understand the people that want to refuse this and want some people to be upset for no reason when it's completely unnecessary AND refuse to admit their ideas WILL upset people.

[Doragan]

...while promoting more damage complexity for those same healers. That makes no sense. They can't manage to spam Medica 2 and you're telling them to juggle 3 DoTs, a gauge, two resources, a couple DPS oGCDs, and a DPS CD buff?

But those players aren't dealing damage to begin with? They could have 30 different damage timer to manage, and they won't be using it? As in, they never used them aside from job quests (maybe), and over the years of this game, never have and never will? That makes no difference to them. It's time to stop pretending that 2-3 DoTs are going to break the game for the people that do not care about it.

Why was P5S "hard"?

It wasn't, first of all, and those same players wouldn't play savage to begin with.

...studiously avoided because it kind of exposes the lie that SB was peak healer design, as it wasn't for WHM specifically.

And I soundly disagree with that. After clearing all of omega on release, and clearing UWU multiple times with WHM, that just isn't true. HW WHM had a huge MP problem that got resolved with SB. Indulgence was not a great mechanic, for sure, but like, the cool part about SB lilies is that you could plainly ignore them and do your thing, and it wouldn't matter. You had aggro management to do with WHM, since Medica II used to pull so much of it. Use Shroud of Saints at the right time. You had the strongest and longests HoTs in the game. o8s felt truly busy with it. In my opinion, the fact that HW mana issue was fixed on WHM during SB, makes SB the peak healer design. "blood for the blood lilies!!" good twitter meme I'm sure, but in practice, it was a DPS loss. And boring to play. And contributed greatly to me quitting the role, if not the game during Shb.

[SargeTheSeagull]

See what I mean?

[Renathras]

See what I mean?

....

See what I mean?

EDIT:

Hit the post limit for the day, so guess I'll just put this here for now:

people

Okay, if you guys want to derail this thread, go for it. I'm going to just stick with the other one where people are actually discussing the topics and not trying to derail the thread to attack one person. Note how that other thread isn't like this despite me posting in it. What's different is the people there are talking about the topic, both sides of the argument are well represented, and people aren't calling each other names or ganging up on the one person they see as disagreeing.

You may have this thread and make it whatever you will. You can spend the next 10 pages bashing me in my absence, I really don't care. But understand that you're the problem with these discussions, not the person you're calling names who is fine and fully capable of having cordial and good discussions on this very topic when you AREN'T harassing him.

Farewell.

[Sebazy]

Quite the opposite, they want healing to be the part that is challenging.

Ok cool yep, I'd be more than happy for some of that. I don't think it entirely solves the issue of healers being boring in mundane content but absolutely, bring on the challenging healing requirements as far as I'm concerned....

I know your opinion there - but novice healers won't be able to clear 4 mans - yet this is what a lot of healer players want.

Oh right.... I think you've completely misunderstood my point that I'm trying to make. Here goes one more time, if you fail to understand it then so be it, that's a you problem.

Look at a boss like Cagnazzo, he hits hard enough to kill people that are caught napping. Not a significant wipe threat, but dangerous enough that you can't sleep on him like some bosses.

Let's take his most damaging sequence: Over the course of a minute and a half, he dealt 4 hits to me totalling slightly under 72k. How much HP did I have in this dungeon as a DNC? Oh... 72k....

Now granted, that run had a Sadge, so lets recalculate on the assumption that I'm the WHM and not a single mitigation button was pressed by the entire team. That nets us roughly 100k damage taken over the same minute and a half window, lets go with my WHM having 65k hp, so I need to do 35k healing to pass the heal check.

1 single Medica II cast + the hot running it's full duration is ~25k HP per person. Therefore 2 Medica IIs over a 90 second period aka 30% uptime would *comfortably* get us through this damage window. The biggest damage window in the fight. 30% uptime on a level 50 GCD PBAOE with a 20yalm reach and a 15 second duration. On a dungeon boss that's far from the most braindead out there. Think about that for a moment.....

This is a fight that is decidedly middle of the road as far as current dungeon bosses go and 1 cast every 15 seconds of a level 50 GCD spell has it covered with room to spare.

Thus my point ISNT that we can't raise the healing requirements because we absolutely can, people survived stuff like the old Demon Wall bosses and Bardams, they'll survive higher healing requirements than we have now.

Rather my point is: I don't think these people actually realise how comically vast a gap we have between what mainstream content expects of healers and what our current healing kits are actually capable of.

If we increase Cagnazzo's healing requirements by 50% that basically has it breaking even with rolled Medica IIs assuming no mitigation or cooldowns are used. How far do you think we have to go to actually push what's on tap once we start dipping into Lilies, cooldowns and multipliers like Temperance, PI, Asylum, let alone powerhouse CDs like Lilybell? If you're unsure, it's basically Harrowing Hell Savage minus the positioning/movement. That's literally what it takes to make healing genuinely challenging now.

I'm absolutely down for that coming to mainstream content.

Of course, this still doesn't solve the tedium when doing more casual or solo content now does it? Or should that force us to dip into our cooldowns too?

Feel free to tell them they're wrong, I guess.

I guess I just did.

For all the people that answer is 'Yes' for, post-change, those people should be able to clear content playing the way they do today.

I can clear an alliance raid today without barely looking at my screen. Make of that what you will.

Again, some people felt bad FOR SCH players who lost their damage kits in ShB. And SMNs in EW. Those changes shouldn't have happened. Doing the opposite here would be just as harmful.

No it wouldn't, and because I'm not you, I'll even explain why:

Because SHB took away a substantial facet of the job and replaced it with nothing. That is harmful. We can both agree on that right?

You suggest that adding damage complexity would somehow be just as harmful. What are you basing this conclusion on? Are you forgetting that we have actual prior examples of this to go on?

Remember Cleric Stance? Many didn't like it or never clicked with it's risk vs reward and as such, they simply chose not to use it. Say what you will about the eventual drama, but the fact remains that a very sizeable chunk of healers simply chose not to engage with that portion of their kit despite the fact that it dropped their damage contribution to the group not by 1%, not by 3%, not even by 10%, but by something like 90% or more depending on the timeframe.

More relevantly, until Gordias Savage landed and pushed the importance of DPS as a metric upon the community, people generally didn't care all that much. It wasn't a problem. If a ~90% drop in damage contribution wasn't a problem back then, why would a ~10-20% damage drop for not engaging with the new mechanics be an issue now? It's absolutely not going to stop them from clearing anything that they couldn't already given that once people stop dying to mechanics, modern extremes are usually getting cleared with minutes left on the enrage timer.

EDIT:

Also, the midcore content isn't gone because it became casual.

The midcore content is gone because it became hardcore (or was removed).

Serious question, did you do Crystal Tower on it's release? Or Lighthouse?

[Saraide]

No, it wouldn't. That's kind of the point. Why was P5S "hard"? It wasn't because our healing kits can't deal with the damage. It was because people were used to just popping some oGCDs and being done with healing. When a fight actually demanded people use GCDs for it, they weren't used to that. On the other hand, know who didn't have a problem with that fight? The people that used GCD heals all the time.

Not talking about savage and you know it

[Thurmnmurmn]

I'm not even gonna bother reacting to you anymore. It's a lost cause.
But just to finish this one here

I don't say everyone is wrong and I'm the only one who is right. This is yet another lie.

Hmmm?

C) Mine is the only one that addresses the needs of all sides as currently presented. The "solutions" I'm arguing against do not, and I've said why they do not.

[Saraide]

Oooops!

It's definitely just us conspiring against him because we are all detractors and not players with vastly different outlooks on the game finding the one topic we agree on.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[…]Then one of the usual suspects shows up, says something absurdly stupid, and the thread unwinds into a bunch of people arguing over semantics.

Been roughly over two years now lol. Two years spent on generating chatGPT responses without actually understanding it rather than actually playing the game more that would’ve otherwise bring them the experience & a solid opinion of their own.

I joked in the past about getting more fun at sifting through official forums than actually spamming 1211111 in-game. Now that I think about it, how this rings (quite possibly) true in their case lol.

————

On the topic though, I might have missed it at some point but has there been any ideas in the thread that pitches for AST’s damage rotation? I’ve seen WHM SCH & SGE but I don’t think I’ve seen one for AST outside from vague statements like ”give them more buffs to play with”(paraphrased).

[Aravell]

Hmmm?

It doesn't surprise me that he thinks the solutions other people present don't address the problems when he keeps adding conditions and loopholes to set up the other ideas to fail.

I noticed how in the argument I had with him about extreme clears, he subtly moved the goalpost from "people who play like they do now can no longer clear" to "parties that barely scrape by can no longer clear" to "people with 0 logs can no longer clear". See how he's slowly setting up my argument to fail by continuously switching conditions?

On the topic though, I might have missed it at some point but has there been any ideas in the thread that pitches for AST’s damage rotation? I’ve seen WHM SCH & SGE but I don’t think I’ve seen one for AST outside from vague statements like ”give them more buffs to play with”(paraphrased).

I think Ty and Roe have made a fleshed out suggestion for AST, maybe Shurrikhan too? I can't recall. Personally, I don't think AST needs too many damage buttons, maybe 1 more DoT and a button to detonate current DoTs for full damage, I'd want them to focus more on making the card system viable to use for the entire duration of the fight rather than used for only 15s every 120s.

I have seen suggestions to put cards on the GCD as well, though I greatly disagree with that. AST becoming slow would be as jarring as WHM becoming an OGCD weaving beast. Although, knowing SE, GCD cards are exactly what's coming. They see people complain about weaving too much? GCD cards!