Dawntrail Healers need a rework

[Renathras]

Honestly?

I feel like it's more they're not sure what to do with healers, and everything they try (e.g. bleeds that require GCD Regens to be applied) gets them yelled at, so they've shifted to a "as few changes as possible/don't rock the boat" policy regarding healers. They've made some pretty big changes to healers over time, most of them in response to player feedback. But there's a big "day crowd/night crowd" effect where the people complaining about the changes ARE happy (generally) when they get them, but this just pisses off a different group of people who become vocal instead. The Devs don't know who is who, exactly (that is, who is part of which group), they only see "The players complain no matter what we do".

It's one reason I really harp on the 4 healers thing, because I genuinely DO think it's the only solution (outside of specs which would be a game change larger than healers and cause all kinds of...interesting...knock-on and balance and etc effects) that can fix this by making sure each group has something they like. While you'd still get people complaining other people have it easier/better than them or they prefer the aesthetics of another Job but want it in their playstyle, etc, the fact is, the only way to stop the Devs getting told they're wrong no matter what they do is to have an offering/content representing each group's desires in at least some way.

Otherwise, they're stuck in the rut of "any change gets us yelled at, so we'll only make tiny changes so we only get yelled at a tiny bit and people are MOSTLY happy, right?"

Same with the 2 min meta. Few people asked for it, but those that did were...vocal. Synodic Scribe just put out a video this week addressing this point and calling on compromise, noting that that requires all groups to speak AT THE SAME TIME so we can see what the whole community does want and work out something compromise with everyone accepting there will be trade-offs to getting it, but the result should give everyone something to be happy about.

[HappyHubris]

Honestly?

I feel like it's more they're not sure what to do with healers, and everything they try (e.g. bleeds that require GCD Regens to be applied) gets them yelled at, so they've shifted to a "as few changes as possible/don't rock the boat" policy regarding healers. They've made some pretty big changes to healers over time, most of them in response to player feedback. But there's a big "day crowd/night crowd" effect where the people complaining about the changes ARE happy (generally) when they get them, but this just pisses off a different group of people who become vocal instead. The Devs don't know who is who, exactly (that is, who is part of which group), they only see "The players complain no matter what we do".

Strong disagree. The devs are being exceedingly consistent:

1. • There are WAY more super-casual players than any other kind of player.
   • We can't let the least skilled players get challenged or frustrated at all, because they bring in the money.
   • As long as players can wave their hands, green sparklies appear, and health goes up, they're happy they're healing.
   • We need to add a few new skills each expansion, to create the appearance of moving forward.
   • Anyone who doesn't like this style of content can play ultimate, LOL.

People on these forums advance grandiose theories, design reworks, and publish reams of analysis, but the devs are incredibly happy with the current state of healing. And the amount of American forum/social media feedback that reaches the Japanese developers is effectively zero. Indeed, the type of person who comes here and expresses frustration at healing is likely under one percentage point of players. There are way more people who just want to buy a ticket, get on the theme park ride, go through the motions, and feel good about passing content.

Devs probably feel like providing ultimate encounters is a disproportionate use of resources for fixated players, or treat it as an expression of their passion for their game. Rebalancing content across the board or overhauling the core design of healing is a step way way way beyond that and is never going to happen. We see this in interviews and empirical class and encounter design.

[Sylvain]

Healers possess two crucial components in their arsenal: the act of healing, which I find to be generally in a commendable state. However, the Scholar (SCH) could benefit from a comprehensive rework, as it currently resembles the Sage too closely. While Sage presents a smoother experience in most situations, Scholar feels somewhat clunky. To establish a clearer distinction between the two, a profound rework for Scholar seems warranted.

Nevertheless, concerning healing capabilities, Astrologian (Ast), White Mage (Whm), Sage, and Scholar all exhibit distinct characteristics and perform effectively across various content. Therefore, aside from a potential Scholar rework, this aspect should remain largely untouched.

The issue arises in the domain of DPS and downtime. The perennial debate unfolds between those who find downtime monotonous—a one-button snoozefest, often voiced by dedicated Savage raiders—and those who prefer a healer's primary focus to be on healing without the complexity of managing a DPS rotation, typically voiced by a more casual or less skilled audience.

Presently, the balance appears tilted toward the latter perspective, and I am inclined to believe that furnishing healers with a full-fledged DPS rotation, particularly one that significantly impacts their overall DPS, may not be prudent. Healer players typically engage with the role for its curative aspects, and imposing a demanding DPS rotation alongside healing duties could prove intimidating for many, especially considering that a significant portion of healers engage primarily in content up to Extreme trials or Savage 1-2.

My proposal stays away from a traditional rotation and leans toward a priority system, similar to that employed by the Sage, wherein additional DPS is marginally increased—by no more than 20%. While this might seem substantial for a DPS role, the context changes for healers. In practice, the DPS variance among healers in challenging content often stems from factors like downtime, inefficient use of abilities, and casting interruptions during movement mechanics, rather than a lack of intent to contribute damage.

The key determinants of a healer's DPS are uptime and healing resource management. Therefore, introducing a few more DPS skills would likely have a negligible impact on overall results. For instance, abilities like White Mage's Blood Lily, Sage's Phlegma, and Astrologian's cards could be regarded as downtime skills—simple additions to enhance DPS without interfering with the primary healing responsibilities. Scholar, with its current toolset, might require more substantial enhancements.

To illustrate, Scholar's Ruin II could be transformed into a 9-second Damage over Time (DoT) effect, dealing the same potency as Broil. This adjustment would allow the healer to move every 9 seconds without sacrificing DPS, exemplifying a more nuanced approach to downtime skills.

In essence, a priority system could benefit healers at varying skill levels, aiding less experienced healers by reducing the overall number of button presses while ensuring that the selected actions contribute meaningfully to DPS. Establishing a balanced middle ground entails encouraging the community to appreciate healers striving for excellence and acknowledging that, for lower-tier content such as Ex trials or dungeons, the inclusion of additional DPS skills can be optional without jeopardizing the group's success within reasonable time constraints. The goal is to foster an environment where healers feel empowered to optimize their contribution without overwhelming them with unnecessary complexity.

[ForsakenRoe]

My proposal stays away from a traditional rotation and leans toward a priority system, similar to that employed by the Sage

I've been trying to say this for like a year, but every time the topic of 'healers getting a couple more damage buttons' comes up, someone skips to the end of the currently active thread, ignores the previous discussions, and retreads the same debunked 'well you just want a 123 combo then????' lines

I suggested, for WHM, Dia to be 12s duration instead of 30, and a new 15s CD called Water (later Banish). In effect, it's a priority system of 'refresh Dia, use Banish, fill with Glare'. SCH's two additional DOTs, 24s Miasma and 15s Shadowflare, are the quintessential 'priority system', you just refresh them as they fall off, and if two are falling off at the same time, you refresh the one that does more damage over its duration (assuming it can tick for the full duration). AST was 'use Minor Arcana on CD (15s), fill with Malefic', and SGE was almost entirely unchanged from current, just changing Toxikon to be a selfbuff effect instead of 'scuffed Ruin2'.

The issue is that we can say 'priority system' all we like, it seems there are certain people who don't understand the idea that in that priority system, 'keep party alive' comes before every damage action. Besides that though, I've also wanted the 'fill downtime with damage' to have more interactivity and reward in the kit than just 'the enemy dies faster'. To incentivize players to do damage instead of waiting around for something to heal, making damage build towards healing tools. Maybe WHM gets a gauge to build, that is spent on a big heal. Maybe SCH gets some effect where Fairy Gauge also builds based on DOT ticks, and Quickened Aetherflow returns. SGE can have actual 'damage>healing' interactions by augmenting Kardia with various effects, like if we had 3 or 4 more moves that work like Soteria but with other effects like 'makes it AOE' or 'converts it to shields'. IDK how AST would 'get healing opportunities from doing damage', maybe it doesn't need them though, if it's the 'buff focused healer'

[HappyHubris]

The issue arises in the domain of DPS and downtime. The perennial debate unfolds between those who find downtime monotonous—a one-button snoozefest, often voiced by dedicated Savage raiders—and those who prefer a healer's primary focus to be on healing without the complexity of managing a DPS rotation, typically voiced by a more casual or less skilled audience.

It's a false dichotomy. There shouldn't be downtime in the first place, if content was designed to keep healers occupied.

To make an analogy, if DPS players could only do damage for five seconds every minute and the other 55 seconds they had to spam a buff button, everyone would agree that it's insane. But (FFXIV) healers are stuck in a rut of deciding what to do with downtime, as clears are done without 2 healers or even any healers at all.

[ForsakenRoe]

To make an analogy, if DPS players could only do damage for five seconds every minute and the other 55 seconds they had to spam a buff button, everyone would agree that it's insane.

Ironically, such a thing existed for healers in old WOW, the one that uses the model of healing some people want to move towards, with the triage and the 'MP is a real concern' and all that. Loatheb only let you heal once, and then you got a 55ish second debuff that prevented you from healing again, so you had to really ration out what you were going to use your one heal for.

I wonder what the healers did during those 55 seconds where they couldn't cast any heals... Surely it wasn't doing damage, that'd be 'against what the healer role is about' right /s

[HappyHubris]

Ironically, such a thing existed for healers in old WOW, the one that uses the model of healing some people want to move towards, with the triage and the 'MP is a real concern' and all that. Loatheb only let you heal once, and then you got a 55ish second debuff that prevented you from healing again, so you had to really ration out what you were going to use your one heal for.

I wonder what the healers did during those 55 seconds where they couldn't cast any heals... Surely it wasn't doing damage, that'd be 'against what the healer role is about' right /s

I know you have an axe to grind against WoW, but digging up a single encounter is silly when we're Glare spamming so much in almost every fight.

[Renathras]

Scholar rework

I feel like if they do a SCH rework, it will shift it more in the direction of SMN. Other than MNK, most reworks have been to make things simpler/more streamlined.

I still believe that the solution isn't to do the same thing with all the healers. For example, _A_ healer Job having a priority system makes sense. But all of them having it? Then we're in the same situation we're in now. The problem, I think, is all the healers' downtime being more or less the same. Going from one same to a different same doesn't fix that. There needs to be an outlet for people that don't like what the others offer. And just having a different priority system doesn't help when there are people who don't like priority systems.

It's like taking a bunch of people that hate sports and were playing videogames and saying you want them to play soccer, and when some say they don't want to play soccer, offering them basketball and football as options, ignoring that they aren't saying they don't like soccer, they're saying they don't like sports, which is why they were playing videogames instead of sports when you happened upon them. While some might like videogames AND sports and take you up on one of the options presented, that doesn't help the people that don't like sports and were explicitly avoiding sports.

It ultimately comes down to different people like and are good at different things. The Caster role reflects this well, with BLM, RDM, and SMN all being distinct and appealing to different types of player.

EDIT:

It's a false dichotomy. There shouldn't be downtime in the first place, if content was designed to keep healers occupied.

To make an analogy, if DPS players could only do damage for five seconds every minute and the other 55 seconds they had to spam a buff button, everyone would agree that it's insane. But (FFXIV) healers are stuck in a rut of deciding what to do with downtime, as clears are done without 2 healers or even any healers at all.

This is honestly a REALLY good analogy. Thank you.

[Icecylee]

It's a false dichotomy. There shouldn't be downtime in the first place, if content was designed to keep healers occupied.

To make an analogy, if DPS players could only do damage for five seconds every minute and the other 55 seconds they had to spam a buff button, everyone would agree that it's insane. But (FFXIV) healers are stuck in a rut of deciding what to do with downtime, as clears are done without 2 healers or even any healers at all.

tbh we actually really, really *do* need downtime. Not nearly as much as we have right now, but if there was none at all playing with randos, especially in lower level roulettes, would be basically impossible. Downtime creates buffers for people that have messed up or fallen behind to catch up if they aren't already on top of things and thus throwing out dps instead. If there was no downtime you'd need everyone to be perfect 100% of the time.

Also to be perfectly honest, in modern FF14 DPS and tanks aren't really that far off either. You cram all your biggest damage buttons into one small 20s window once every two minutes and then just coast until it's time to burst again, and a significant chunk of your total damage happens in that window. Tanks slam every single defensive cooldown they can into the tankbusters that happen infrequently enough to make this the normal way to play. All the roles could stand to have less downtime, and more varied things to do during the luls between the important parts of each encounter.

[ForsakenRoe]

I know you have an axe to grind against WoW, but digging up a single encounter is silly when we're Glare spamming so much in almost every fight.

You misunderstand, I think there's plenty of things we could learn from WOW. I just want to know, in that fight where the healers had very little healing to do, not because of a lack of damage per se, but because they literally could not heal thanks to the fight's mechanics, what did those healers do to fill the downtime? I'd imagine that it'd be damage, which is just what we have here, in which case the two games are very alike. The difference was that there was more damage to heal back then in WOW, but we might not be able to get away with raising healing required here as much because WOW has something we don't: responsiveness

It's like taking a bunch of people that hate sports and were playing videogames and saying you want them to play soccer, and when some say they don't want to play soccer, offering them basketball and football as options, ignoring that they aren't saying they don't like soccer, they're saying they don't like sports, which is why they were playing videogames instead of sports when you happened upon them. While some might like videogames AND sports and take you up on one of the options presented, that doesn't help the people that don't like sports and were explicitly avoiding sports.

I think the analogy falls apart a bit when you consider that the four healers are part of the same role, therefore they have to be related. Probably makes more sense to say that each role is a hobby, like 'sports' or 'video games' or 'reading books', and within that category you have different things. Like the four healers can be four different sports, and some sports involve a ball, some don't (running/highjump/longjump), but at the end of the day they're all linked in that they require some amount of physical exertion, like how healers have 'healing' as their core. And regardless of the sport, all of them have a fair amount of depth to 'master' said sport. Pretty sure most people agree that the four healers should feel different in their damage, there's just disagreement on why one should be left as it is