Tank mitigation should be balanced to dungeons

[Supersnow845]

That's because people are less receptive to the idea of nerfing a job. More people are more likely to agree with you if you ask for buffs, and if you were to suggest nerfs to a job, people who play said job would be up in arms.

And the fact that they won’t nerf jobs is why we have such insane power creep

Does anyone besides WAR’s want every tank to be able to invalidate healers in all content below extreme

[Oizen]

Its going to be a really sad day if every tank gets their own forms of BW/Nascent/Shake because they refused to tone back WAR.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Its going to be a really sad day if every tank gets their own forms of BW/Nascent/Shake because they refused to tone back WAR.

They will still somehow manage to give Warrior a new toy that makes them stand out from other tanks, as is tradition.

Equalized the sustain of other tanks to get to WAR's level? No worries, WAR gets his 4th stack of Onslaught, two stacks of Shake it Off, maybe get another damage button at Double Down potency + guaranteed critical + direct hit and possibly also an AOE draw-in for mobs because getting rid of the cone-shaped Overpower was not enough.

[MikoRemi]

That's because people are less receptive to the idea of nerfing a job. More people are more likely to agree with you if you ask for buffs, and if you were to suggest nerfs to a job, people who play said job would be up in arms.

It's probably why WAR tends to get more buffs in general since I hardly ever see WAR mains go out of their way to mess with other jobs. If anything most of whom I interact with and of course the bald legend himself would rather have all the tanks be good rather than simple warrior.

Trying to explain Loss Aversion in threads like these falls upon deaf ears though unfortunately. While everyone else is busy trying to keep nerfing WAR when historically it only ever at worst, has a bad patch at the beginning of an expansion(2.0 with being unable to handle tankbusters, 4.0 with Shake It Off being useless, 6.0 with Inner Release being expended on all GCD's including Tomahawk), before getting stronger later, they'll find they don't get quite as much buffs as they would like. In trying to bring down WAR constantly, they miss a chance to get some buffs of their own.

Of course, that could just be a theory, but it's interesting to say the least. Telling the truth makes us crazy advocates for power creep apparently even when counters are offered. Nerfs should only be warranted when say, Fell Cleave can take 15% off a Savage bosses HP bar. Core-A Gaming's video on Buffs over Nerfs may be on fighting games but it's quite relevant across the board.

[Supersnow845]

It's probably why WAR tends to get more buffs in general since I hardly ever see WAR mains go out of their way to mess with other jobs. If anything most of whom I interact with and of course the bald legend himself would rather have all the tanks be good rather than simple warrior.

Trying to explain Loss Aversion in threads like these falls upon deaf ears though unfortunately. While everyone else is busy trying to keep nerfing WAR when historically it only ever at worst, has a bad patch at the beginning of an expansion(2.0 with being unable to handle tankbusters, 4.0 with Shake It Off being useless, 6.0 with Inner Release being expended on all GCD's including Tomahawk), before getting stronger later, they'll find they don't get quite as much buffs as they would like. In trying to bring down WAR constantly, they miss a chance to get some buffs of their own.

Of course, that could just be a theory, but it's interesting to say the least. Telling the truth makes us crazy advocates for power creep apparently even when counters are offered. Nerfs should only be warranted when say, Fell Cleave can take 15% off a Savage bosses HP bar. Core-A Gaming's video on Buffs over Nerfs may be on fighting games but it's quite relevant across the board.

The problem is you are coming at this from the perspective of thinking that WAR is good and we are trying to make WAR bad instead of Making the other tanks good when In reality nobody because WAR’s think that WAR is good or healthy for the game

Buffing the other 3 tanks to WAR’s level would either

A) functionally destroy the healer role entirely
B) force square to make healers do something else with their time such as debuff cleansing because they are now not needed as healers which would still destroy any content made prior to the time of the buff

I don’t want to nerf WAR because I don’t like WAR, I want to nerf WAR because it’s existence is destabilising 2 entire roles and it is the entire reason for it, unbalancing 8 entire jobs (and basically all 20 of them in old content) is 100% a valid reason for a nerf

[MikoRemi]

This is why I've said in multiple threads, Healer's can focus more on cleansing for a start, then because of the fact all the tanks have sustain the content will be changed to reflect that. I mean we already have some previous dungeons getting reworked like Copperbell Mines and Thousand Maw Totorak, but yes it will take time to get everything reworked but that's just the state of the direction. Again, we have multiple dooms coming in dungeons at this point that require cleansing when before, you were lucky to see it in something like Sunken Temple of Qarn as a stage check. Going back to the content having to challenge all tanks even with their sustain, Healer's in general should be worked more to be like Sage in that offense=healing. They would have more offensive buttons to deal more damage and be active in general, instead of just spamming dia>glare>glare>glare and being bored all day.

I'm tired of the assumption that if all tanks had sustain in general, whether it's similar to WAR or god forbid they make all types of sustain unique but at least usable, that NOTHING in the game would change at all to accomodate that. If you're worried about destroying old content, we already do that by default, try running Satasha's at any point now vs remembering how it was in SB. It was probably even more different in ARR and HW too. That's not even a valid excuse anymore but hey, at least they're trying to fix old content piece by piece so who knows where everything will be in time anyway.

Meanwhile WAR is one of the few tanks that had actual really big issues, like unable to survive tankbusters in ARR, or doing not enough damage in P8S that you have to go GNB or DRK or you're trolling. PLD has it's own issues but I don't see any of them whining about WAR. The only reason WAR gets unbalanced is DRK and rarely GNB it seems want to just try to drag WAR down when they should try to bring themselves up. So by extension, WAR gets buffs when there's actual problems that get addressed while the others don't because they don't address their own stuff enough. WAR is fun, and whether or not you like WAR, asking for nerfs ain't going to go well.

When we have to wait for the bald man to fix DRK's Living Dead by spotlighting how bad it is when he isn't even a DRK main, that's pretty gruesome.

[Oizen]

I do firmly believe if we don't do some blanket nerf to self sustain we could very well see groups that start to solo heal content out of the gate.
Its already the optimal way to run dungeons, and while its still currently a meme, the fact that current content like P12S or TOP have been cleared with no healers is a sign of things to come if nothing is done.
And it should be noted the core of those groups were running 2 WARs and PLDs.

If you go look at statistics for the jobs, the sheer gap in healing output between WAR and PLD and DRK/GNB its almost comical. Its clear early on the idea was for DRK/GNB to be the damage tanks and WAR/PLD to be the sustain tanks.
Well 5 patches in those sustain tanks are doing GNB levels of damage yet still bring that much more party utility. Not saying those damage buffs weren't warranted, but using P8S as an example when it was a problem for a week and the devs themselves admitted they failed to test it thoroughly doesn't make it an issue with their output, it makes it an issue with developer attentiveness.

And just to put numbers to this, in Anabaseios WAR has a Heal per second of around 4,500, PLD's is about 3,900.
DRK and GNBs both hover around 3,160. That means WAR doing slightly less than 1.5x of GNB or DRK.

Its kinda sad that this hasn't even been viewed as an issue by the devs imo.
Like WAR leading is to be expected due to its gimmick, but then TBN is DRK's gimmick and that logs as healing as well, and here we are.

I understand entirely that this isn't as big of an issue as damage outputs, and things like raw mitigation are also going to play into this not mattering as much, but then WAR really isn't a slouch on raw mitigation despite claims otherwise, and we're also on 6.5, nearly 6.51 so I really don't think the devs even care about things like this.

[Supersnow845]

This is why I've said in multiple threads, Healer's can focus more on cleansing for a start, then because of the fact all the tanks have sustain the content will be changed to reflect that. I mean we already have some previous dungeons getting reworked like Copperbell Mines and Thousand Maw Totorak, but yes it will take time to get everything reworked but that's just the state of the direction. Again, we have multiple dooms coming in dungeons at this point that require cleansing when before, you were lucky to see it in something like Sunken Temple of Qarn as a stage check. Going back to the content having to challenge all tanks even with their sustain, Healer's in general should be worked more to be like Sage in that offense=healing. They would have more offensive buttons to deal more damage and be active in general, instead of just spamming dia>glare>glare>glare and being bored all day.

I'm tired of the assumption that if all tanks had sustain in general, whether it's similar to WAR or god forbid they make all types of sustain unique but at least usable, that NOTHING in the game would change at all to accomodate that. If you're worried about destroying old content, we already do that by default, try running Satasha's at any point now vs remembering how it was in SB. It was probably even more different in ARR and HW too. That's not even a valid excuse anymore but hey, at least they're trying to fix old content piece by piece so who knows where everything will be in time anyway.

Meanwhile WAR is one of the few tanks that had actual really big issues, like unable to survive tankbusters in ARR, or doing not enough damage in P8S that you have to go GNB or DRK or you're trolling. PLD has it's own issues but I don't see any of them whining about WAR. The only reason WAR gets unbalanced is DRK and rarely GNB it seems want to just try to drag WAR down when they should try to bring themselves up. So by extension, WAR gets buffs when there's actual problems that get addressed while the others don't because they don't address their own stuff enough. WAR is fun, and whether or not you like WAR, asking for nerfs ain't going to go well.

When we have to wait for the bald man to fix DRK's Living Dead by spotlighting how bad it is when he isn't even a DRK main, that's pretty gruesome.

Restructuring 8 seperate jobs and having to tweak 5 expansions worth of old content because 1 class can’t handle a nerf is a massive problem, nobody thinks that the content wouldn’t change, I am saying that changing all that content rather than just nerfing WAR is a totally unrealistic expectation

Have you ever stopped to consider that healers may not want to be cleansers; I don’t want my entire role restructured because you don’t want your job to be nerfed, that’s essentially what you are asking for. The complete redesign of 7 other jobs to accomodate WAR’s OP self healing

Not sure why you are mentioning WAR having “legit issues”, you don’t hear AST mains going round demanding they be the best at everything and doing the tanks job for them because AST was damn near unplayable in 3.0

[MikoRemi]

Funny because you don't see this being a problem in content like UWU when everyone brings up TOP. Why? There's a Healer LB check just like there's a Caster LB check, and a Melee LB check. Good luck sustaining through those even with massive WAR and PLD sustain. Good luck clearing things like SOS or A12 without Tank LB either among many other pieces of content if you want to see it flipped around also.

Yeah it sure is comical when GNB has bad sustain and DRK has virtually no sustain. How about give it to them? GNB could get some sustain off the cartridge combo so while it's doing its super long opener, it can actually sustain itself throughout the combo without having to worry about misaligning a burst window because they have to press a mit first. DRK instead of getting MP back from Delirium like it used to could just heal 50% of whatever damage it takes. If that's too low then make it higher, but it's better than the Abyssal drain nerf its got. Those are already better then trying to nerf WAR's sustain. Might as well remove the healing from PLD's Holy Spirit combo while were at it. It's only fair to sustain if it's a complete DPS loss right? Why stop there, nerf Bloodbath for those pesky Melee DPS. Oh wait, that didn't matter in P8S anyway because WAR damage was so comically low compared to GNB that even with two damage downs in a group, GNB had 500 more dps to clear in general without breaking a sweat. I don't even care if WAR is the lowest dps for the record, but there shouldn't ever be a situation where you're forced to swap or play like it's Eureka Orthos for an entire fight.

Well the devs would look at it if people wouldn't try to constantly nerf another job instead of bringing their own job up. It's worked so well the past 5 expansions so why not go for a 6th one right?

[MikoRemi]

Restructuring 8 seperate jobs and having to tweak 5 expansions worth of old content because 1 class can’t handle a nerf is a massive problem, nobody thinks that the content wouldn’t change, I am saying that changing all that content rather than just nerfing WAR is a totally unrealistic expectation

Have you ever stopped to consider that healers may not want to be cleansers; I don’t want my entire role restructured because you don’t want your job to be nerfed, that’s essentially what you are asking for. The complete redesign of 7 other jobs to accomodate WAR’s OP self healing

Not sure why you are mentioning WAR having “legit issues”, you don’t hear AST mains going round demanding they be the best at everything and doing the tanks job for them because AST was damn near unplayable in 3.0

Yet they're already changing the content as is because things have changed. We don't have TP anymore. We don't have to keep Stone 1/2/3 on our hotbars or worry about attribute points and cross classing, or elemental resistances. Things have already changed, it's not that unrealistic. Especially if all jobs had a universal kit of sorts it can actually be planned around it instead of accommodating for DRK's lack of healing in dungeons, but then having to make sure we don't have a P8S incident again in higher content.

Healers in general would love to have more than three dps buttons that's for sure. I would love to see them be more active with the offensive healing which would also solve the problem of Cure bots. Cleansing is just something they can do that nobody else can, like tanks in general taking much less damage than anyone else, and DPS doing more damage in general than anyone else. They're already doing it with the dooms lately in dungeons, as I'll repeat over and over and over again. Just give them Erase at least on a shorter cooldown for some OGCD cleansing and maybe some more options so it's not too much of a pain. I shouldn't even have to bring this up here though considering this isn't a healing thread but there you go. Also can just use the same argument that WAR's don't want to lose their kit, but it's not valid because it's just so good. Let me know when Raw Intuition can res cheese Lahabrea's doom in UWU, or kill him faster than a Melee LB3, or allow tanks to aoe nuke like a Caster LB3.

If tanks are all fun, healers will have to get changed for the better given their horrible position at the moment. To suggest content wouldn't ever change going forward when an entire classline is getting changed is ridiculous. But hey, if we keep going in circles like this, WAR and PLD I guess will just be the only ones with proper sustain and have to help fix DRK and GNB as well since they would rather tear down others because it's simpler.