Tank mitigation should be balanced to dungeons

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

snip

Meanwhile over here I'm already c*cking regular bad, DF healer as a GNB/DRK who later wrote ":|" in party chat cause I apparently don't need them with current lv of sustain as a non-WAR.

Why does people want to be a one-man army in an mmo game that emphasizes the holy trinity?

"One job is broken so let's make everything broken, too!"

W i l d

[MikoRemi]

Meanwhile over here I'm already c*cking regular bad, DF healer as a GNB/DRK who later wrote ":|" in party chat cause I apparently don't need them with current lv of sustain as a non-WAR.

Why does people want to be a one-man army in an mmo game that emphasizes the holy trinity?

Interesting to have a DF healer somehow annoyed they don't need to heal you, most are relieved around Aether at least. As a GNB and DRK that's pretty neato too since wall to wall pulls can hurt a bit, but that's just a sign of good tanking. Having healed before, most tanks in general forget what Rampart and Arm's Length is over their other cooldowns.

If you want to put trust into others, I guess DRK and GNB are just fine at the moment since they're more in need of Healer's then WAR and PLD. However having had my normal DF and PF days in Stormblood when we all had actual responsibility within the holy trinity(casters Mana Shifting to healers or using Erase to heal and cleanse a debuff as an OGCD, melee DPS needing to Goad other melee's to regen TP, ranged DPS monitering TP and MP on top of other support buffs, all DPS needing to manage aggro with NIN's Smokescreen or Shadewalker or just Diversion to reduce aggro generation, healers and tanks needing to pull up damage in their own unique ways, and much more), I have little faith in most people. It's not as bad these days since jobs have been made less complicated, but it's a real biter when your healer in Dead Ends can't help but soak in the poison pools and can barely even touch their cooldowns let alone their GCD's, or move out of the bad orange markers. It's especially nice to be able to save a long and grueling POTD/HoH run if something unlucky happens, Eureka to not lose experience as often, and so on.

The trinity is nice when it works, but I would need more faith for the players to do their job generally to be fine with blind trust. Besides, silly tank sustain can't solve the body check mechanics that require most/all of the party, esuna only dooms, and classic LB moments we don't usually get anymore outside of Tank LB3 because Nabriales scared people I guess to have too many Melee LB3 moments. Not enough experiences with Healer LB3 being absolutely required outside of UWU from what I've seen admittedly but that's a whole other thing.

Better to wish for everyone to be good than to have everyone mired in sad though. /shrug

[MikoRemi]

Mind telling me where I said "well what about we just do (insert random thing on random class)", CTRL F isn't bringing it up, or I didn't just say it so simply. If you want to bring healer's into a tank mix, then it's fair game I can talk about other classes then. I'm quite specific and it's just an annoyance to have to go backwards. I'm at least bringing up specific points so it's not hard to look back as a courtesy. If you're talking about me mentioning other tanks for buffing, that's because I do want DRK and GNB to be in a better place actually. If it's healers, then I want them to be more fun. They must be related if people keep bringing up WAR along with them.

Or the healing can remain because it's actually fun, and others should join the party. PLD's were already sad Clemency was basically "useless" for being a full dps loss so they got compensation. It's great, now they can still stay alive without making pulls a pain. /shrug

Part 2 final.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Interesting to have a DF healer somehow annoyed they don't need to heal you, most are relieved around Aether at least. As a GNB and DRK that's pretty neato too since wall to wall pulls can hurt a bit, but that's just a sign of good tanking. Having healed before, most tanks in general forget what Rampart and Arm's Length is over their other cooldowns[...]

I'm one those healer mains (alongside all healer mains within my own social circle with varied degree of proficiency) that would actually groan whenever we get a WAR in our DF dungeon runs because we know we're not going to need to press more than 1-2 from our bajillion shiny healing buttons---sometimes NONE of them because there are some WARs who knows which order & when exactly they should press their bloodwhetting & other cooldowns. If DF que doesn't enforce a 1T1H2D compo I might as well beg to be vote dismissed so I can rejoin (lol) as 3rd DPS whenever I see WARs---I'm literally there because DF says I have to be.

Tank-Healer dynamic are being designed without the perspective of a healer main (It should come from both sides imho). Do they have no idea why do we pick up the role from first place? Have they forgotten there's this one role in their own game that in its nature interacts with party interplay more often than other roles? Why do they keep removing these interplay just because some booboo cries from their own or another's incompetence?

The reality is people just play at different skill level. Some are going to be suck. Some going to be mediocre. Some going to be flawless. And we're going to come across all these individuals---it's an MMO. Dumb things down and people will always find ways to be even more dumb. Do we seriously want to accommodate even lower after reaching certain point?

With all that being said, I'm not saying tanks should have 0% agency in the matter. The current status quo is ain't it however (shrugging off healer from 95% health boss can be funny/hilarious on a tank/dps perspective, but is absolutely miserable from the healer's perspective because you are playing the game for them, metaphorically speaking). And even if that came to be, is still not the magical solution because frankly healer issue is another whole can of worm that I'd rather not see being peeled at the moment. (much less in a tank sub-forum of all places!)

tl;dr giving Bloodwhetting treatment to 3 other tanks will remove what little vestiges (read: cookie crumbs) that currently remains on one from 3 major role in the game. Don't do that. Unless one day they just decide to rip off the bandage and nuke the holy trinity system out of the orbit lmao.

[MikoRemi]

I'm one those healer mains (alongside all healer mains within my own social circle with varied degree of proficiency) that would actually groan whenever we get a WAR in our DF dungeon runs because we know we're not going to need to press more than 1-2 from our bajillion shiny healing buttons---sometimes NONE of them because there are some WARs who knows which order & when exactly they should press their bloodwhetting & other cooldowns. If DF que doesn't enforce a 1T1H2D compo I might as well beg to be vote dismissed so I can rejoin (lol) as 3rd DPS whenever I see WARs---I'm literally there because DF says I have to be.

A rare breed, but a statistical eventuality, just like WAR's who press their buttons so bad they actually die. Terrifying to see but it does exist unfortunately.

I do agree they would need to work on healers more, mostly in giving them actual stuff to do like giving back Miasma 2 and Shadowflare and weaving the jobs in to be more Sage-like in having offensive healing so Cure bots die off and the jobs are allowed to be a little more interesting. Also I can definitely say they're the only real ones who can cleanse, and that's already getting leaned into with the dooms lately. Who knows where else things will go, but I'll hope for the best.

Indeed, yet with the environment currently, there isn't too much need to push oneself. Doing so though either wastes time or worse, gets people destroyed needlessly. Of course people will always be dumb, so I'd like to protect myself and others with my Bloodwhetting and Nascent. I'd love for players to be challenged more but with Stormblood showing me when they tried, yeah DPS can't even be bothered to hit a shiny button that lowers their aggro generation.

I would still put the healer issues into the healer thread really, that's a whole other can of worms not for this thread. Here it's about tank mitigation overall, and yeah there's some tanks that have good mits, some that clearly don't.

I doubt they'll nuke the trinity since it's core to the game, but there needs to be a little more redesigning. What SE decides to do, I don't know. Hopefully Dawntrail will work on reviewing stuff overall over the coming months. I'd rather everyone be happy though, but gutting a class isn't the way. Start the nerf train, and it's a ride that has no brakes.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]I would still put the healer issues into the healer thread really, that's a whole other can of worms not for this thread. Here it's about tank mitigation overall, and yeah there's some tanks that have good mits, some that clearly don't.[...]

I'm only bringing up WAR and healing talks briefly because that's exactly the OP wants to see happening to DRK.

[...]I shouldn’t have to rely on gear or hope my healer is good at the game to be able to clear a dungeon on a tank.

I'm not going to sugarcoat it: that literally screams "I want to unga bunga in dungeon oh so who cares about the enjoyment of that one role which DF forces upon us to have in order to even start the duty!" --- at which point, why are we catering to the folks who refuses to budge in a group content? Let them stay suck, leave duty, vote dismiss, or improve.

This reminds me a of post from another forum dweller (same sentiment, but this is going a little bit of tangent here so I'll just /HB it):

Support classes in general feel like garbage in this game but BRD probably feels the worst because not only does it suffer from the problems of every other support class, but it also had a fun dps setup that got completely gutted for no discernible reason.

In other multiplayer games where party synergy actually exists, playing a support class feels good. These games are getting rarer and rarer, and it's definitely not a thing in 14. The only times a party syncs up in 14 is to hit their buff button on the 120s mark. Things like MP management basically do not exist unless you consider pressing lucid dreaming off cd for like 3 jobs "management" in which case lmao. Even if bard got an MP regen song, it would not affect like 90% of jobs in this game because most jobs don't use mana for anything. Bard's current songs affect things like crit chance and direct hit, basically invisible number stuff that you can't actually feel when you're partied up with a bard player. In essence, this means if a bard parties you, you might not even notice you're being buffed. This is incredibly shitty from just a "how does it feel to play this support class" angle. Compare this to other MMOs with actual support/party synergy elements. A support class might actually boost your attack speed so that you can accomplish more during your burst. This changes the entire feel of your class and makes you keenly aware of the fact that you're being supported. CBU3 lost track of this and doesn't want us to actually rely on our party members at all, so now all the support jobs just feel hella boring. But on top of this, BRD's DoTs actually felt meaningful in shb because they fed into your ability to take advantage of your songs. Now though, the DoTs don't do anything. Why? Was someone out there forgetting to just press Iron Jaws? So now we all get to pay for it? Who asked for this change? It makes aoe in dungeons slower and it makes the DoTs themselves completely meaningless; just remove them entirely if you're gonna cut out their purpose.

I seriously can't wrap my head around how bad support classes feel in this game sometimes. In the MMO I'm playing right now, the main support class boosts your attack speed, boosts your defense, boosts your accuracy, and boosts your attack power all while also debuffing other enemies. For people on the receiving end of these buffs, this has the effect of "I can't kill this monster by myself, but if I party up with [support class] I'll be faster, be able to hit the monster I want to kill for more damage, and not get immediately killed if I'm hit in turn." See how there's a noticeable difference from support buffs in a game where party synergy is a thing? See how that difference isn't only noticeable if you're eyeing a dps meter? For this to happen in 14, they'd need to basically roll back the game 3 expansions and suddenly make people dependent on each other again via things like MP/TP management. Players would riot and quit in droves because everyone who preferred that system probably quit ages ago and have been replaced by people who just want to do their 123 and not care about the rest of their group -- which is a fair thing to want, since most people you'll meet in this game suck at it.

[Supersnow845]

“It’s not destabilising it’s just showing how fun a class can be” isn’t tearing into someone’s responses, it’s having no actual defence of your position other than just wanting WAR to not change

Our evidence that nothing will change is that fact that nothing changed when WAR was hilariously buffed in EW, that isn’t “being held back by DRK” that’s them buffing a class with zero regard to how it changes the content then refusing to fix the problem because they are terrified to need anything, do you honestly expect they will restructure all content and change the design of healers just because WAR doesn’t want to be nerfed, healers can’t even get fixed by begging square for 4 years straight, and think about it, let’s say they committed to a full game wide rebalance, how do you even balance all tanks being functionally immortal for 10 seconds every 30 seconds, if you are just going to up the damage to counter this to the point that bloodwhetting doesn’t feel effective anymore you have just effectively nerfed WAR anyway, just in a really wasteful and roundabout way that messes up the numbers on all the content

WAR is hilariously overpowered in palace and HOH now, it’s totally messed up the leaderboards for the solo runs and trivialised group runs since you have zero incentive to bring any other tank, as for Bozja the other two are strong because of essence abuse; WAR has one of tje most powerful essences built into its kit, this is the third time or so you’ve implied “well just because it can’t do (insert super unrealistic feat) it must not be unbalanced” without considering the implications of having the strength it does as a baseline

That comment about what are you even trying to say was specifically that one random comment you made about “well what about we just do (insert random thing on random class)” as if that really relates to WAR, go back and read that comment, it legit makes no real sense

Mitigation should be balanced I agree and small changes like DRK getting dark mind being Omni reduction is good. That doesn’t change the fact that bloodwhetting needs to be reduced to one heal per GCD and PLD needs a reduction on its magic combo healing potency (I’d half it), so their mitigation remains in tact but their healing is nerfed

[MikoRemi]

snip

Except it is a valid defense when it's a new bar. If you don't personally find it to be a defense then that's a you problem.

Given the many attempts at other content as well as Yoshi P having his attention divided with FF16, the job balance has been a bit of a sad time for a lot of different jobs. Not exactly a full measurement when it's simply one expansion. I would expect them to fix content going forward as top priority if tanks and healers were changed as drastically as mentioned, but if that doesn't happen then sure it won't. They kinda go hand in hand if you can't tell.

I don't really know a healer with a voice as strong as Xenos or MrHappy, but if we ever got one I'd be happy if healers got to experience a nicer direction. I know plenty are as I've stated; bored of spamming glare all day and want more options.

Balancing immortality for 10 seconds? Sounding like the average invuln timer...oh wait you're talking about sustainability. Maybe actually strong busters where you need to properly use all your tools including sustain? Or just attacks in general? And it's not a nerf so much as WAR would have to consider healing as more of a normal tool. That way you get your beloved healing like you want. I'm advocating for that adjustment as is because that way healers stay relevant, because that's being nice.

I've gone into plenty of POTD/HoH with various classes, all most people care about is who can fill a slot and bring good aetherpool and not screw the party. I've never had a tank denied for not being a WAR, we just want our clears and sacks. Leaderboard people are their own beast, but at least everyone can do leaderboards now rather than the old days of primarily(if not exclusively) Red Mage in Stormblood with solos in POTD, so I fail to see how that's any more messed up. And no, casters and healers aren't only essence abuse, it's skills like Chainspell and Cleric stance alone that can make them a force not even accounting essences, but also the majority of enemies being weak to magic helps. WHM and BLM can also use shields which can be a cutting edge for pure optimizing, whether you choose to believe it or not. WAR is about as strong as any other tank in that regard because basic Bloodsucker essence as a whole makes things a breeze as a tank. You want to say WAR is hilariously overpowered yet ignore other classes that are also legit powerful in Eureka/Bozja. Don't even bring up no incentive to bring other classes in either, I've been around as a RDM/MCH/BLM before, I know what class lockouts actually look like, but all it tells me is saving me time from a grief party.

Part 1 because it's impossible to shorten at this point.

[Oizen]

Well to be entirely realistic here, the two scenarios I can see happening are:

-WAR continues to be the favorite child and nothing changes
-More Tank homogenization happens and every tank gets some form of Bloodwhetting, and healers are only played in lower content because the duty finder forces them to be

I don't think they're ever going to nerf their favorite job to spoil, theres really just no precedent for it.

[Supersnow845]

Okay I’m just gonna tap out at this point it’s obvious we aren’t going to agree here, you won’t let go of the idea that WAR is the pinnacle of perfection and that everything should bend around that and I won’t give up the fact that I view WAR as an abomination that has no business existing in its current form

It’s also obvious the way we talk on the forum doesn’t work well, you take literally things that I mean in more vague sense (which is more a me problem)

So I guess thanks for the chat, it’s at least interesting to see the opinions of someone who thinks current WAR is a good thing