Tank mitigation should be balanced to dungeons

[HyperiusUltima]

* Magic Mitigation

If you account for Physical damage, Dark Knight has no unique mitigation until lv 70, and in current content it only has 10% unique mitigation for it with Oblation. Not an issue in raids as they tend to either be mixed or dominantly magic, but in anything physical DRK only has TBN/Oblation on the other tanks. Not even its raidwide mit can be used here.

I think DRK just needs to have Dark Mind swapped with something else entirely. If anything, in Dungeons you typically get 0 Value out of using it during W2W pulls, let alone normal pulls as mobs do Physical damage a majority of the time. If we're looking at a Raid perspective though, removing Dark Mind wouldn't necessarily harm DRK's mitigation kit too heavily, it'd just be a tad more reliant on TBN and ask for people to hold 3000 MP more often instead of burn it every 60s.

I'll use Bardam's Mettle as a standard as Oizen mentioned it was the hardest for DRK. I'll only be going over personal mits+survival tools and not Role Actions, as those are a given.

DRK: Living Dead(10s Doom and Undying w/ Lifesteal), Abyssal Drain(Minor Lifesteal)

WAR: Thrill(eHP), Holmgang(1 HP), Raw Intuition(100% Damage Lifesteal), Equilibrium(Self-heal)

PLD: Sheltron(15%), Hallowed(Invincible), Bulwark(Guaranteed 20% Mit), Divine Veil(Shield), Clemency(Hard-cast Heal)

GNB: Aurora(Regen), Super(1 HP, but Invincible), HoL(Magic Mit; useless here)

So as you can see, for dungeons PLD and WAR are stacked, while GNB/DRK are lacking in proper defensives pre-70 - DRK moreso due to a lack of survival tools. The 20/30% Mits are a given, but managing them boils down to healer capability mostly. If anything, I'm on the side of the fence for giving DRK one more Mit to be used to replace Dark Mind - but shifting TBN to Lv 62 would make a lot more sense by moving Delirium to Lv 70(since WAR gets Inner Release at Lv 70) and Bloodspiller/Quietus being moved to 64/68. GNB can have Heart of Stone moved to Lv 62 while Bow Shock can be 64, HoL be 68 so you get the mits you need earlier.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

I think DRK just needs to have Dark Mind swapped with something else entirely. If anything, in Dungeons you typically get 0 Value out of using it during W2W pulls, let alone normal pulls as mobs do Physical damage a majority of the time. If we're looking at a Raid perspective though, removing Dark Mind wouldn't necessarily harm DRK's mitigation kit too heavily, it'd just be a tad more reliant on TBN and ask for people to hold 3000 MP more often instead of burn it every 60s.

I'll use Bardam's Mettle as a standard as Oizen mentioned it was the hardest for DRK. I'll only be going over personal mits+survival tools and not Role Actions, as those are a given.

DRK: Living Dead(10s Doom and Undying w/ Lifesteal), Abyssal Drain(Minor Lifesteal)

WAR: Thrill(eHP), Holmgang(1 HP), Raw Intuition(100% Damage Lifesteal), Equilibrium(Self-heal)

PLD: Sheltron(15%), Hallowed(Invincible), Bulwark(Guaranteed 20% Mit), Divine Veil(Shield), Clemency(Hard-cast Heal)

GNB: Aurora(Regen), Super(1 HP, but Invincible), HoL(Magic Mit; useless here)

So as you can see, for dungeons PLD and WAR are stacked, while GNB/DRK are lacking in proper defensives pre-70 - DRK moreso due to a lack of survival tools. The 20/30% Mits are a given, but managing them boils down to healer capability mostly. If anything, I'm on the side of the fence for giving DRK one more Mit to be used to replace Dark Mind - but shifting TBN to Lv 62 would make a lot more sense by moving Delirium to Lv 70(since WAR gets Inner Release at Lv 70) and Bloodspiller/Quietus being moved to 64/68. GNB can have Heart of Stone moved to Lv 62 while Bow Shock can be 64, HoL be 68 so you get the mits you need earlier.

Ok so here is my take on Bardam's Mettle. By every stretch, you are correct - if you look purely at DRK's kit it is possibly the most difficult especially when you consider the first packs with the Gulo Gulo.

However it is important to note that in Stormblood compared to future expansions healing done is comparatively a lot higher relative to your max HP both by healers and tanks. So while you still take a buttload of damage, Healers generally have an easier time keeping you up because their heals are relatively more potent than for example Lv80 or 82, which is weird because Healers only got more healing tools.

The reason I cited Tower of Zot in particular is because it is within that reach where you notice the disparity of mob pulls compared to other tanks the most. After the first boss the rooms with the Hypertuned hurt a lot and grabbing all iron giants + roader + magitek spiders at the end needs a LOT of mitigation AND healing, so both the tank and healer need to be completely on their game for that bit if they do the maximum pull.

This is why I suggest treating Dark Mind like Addle: 20% magical mitigation, 10% physical mitigation. It would help out in dungeons for being dominantly physical in mob pulls and would keep the emphasis of being a magical defensive vs GNB's Camouflage being more suited for physical damage, notably auto attacks.

[SerophisRagnarok]

I watch tanks not use all their resources on almost every occasion. You can mitigate dps with Reprisal and Arm's Length. You have a limit break that will just sit on 1 or two bars cuz barely anyone uses it in casual content like dungeons. You have your invuln which you don't owe it to the healer to not use because it hurts their feefees thinking you dont trust their healing, which you shouldn't because you don't know them in Pug roulette parties. I watched a Gnb not superbolide with 10 percent of his hp because i had fallen behind because of an irl distraction. I had to blow ALL my resources to keep him alive because he didn't invuln. you have resources and NO tank should ever have trouble in dungeon content unless its pre heavensward...screw ARR dungeons just saying.

[Luizgazen]

I hope they would give back DRK Dark Dance as a 100% parry rate like they gave PLD Bulwark, if it comes around the same level as Dark Mind it would already fix a lot of DRK's mit problems trought the entire game

[VictorSpoils]

A bare minimum change would be bumping Oblation down to ARR levels and maybe TBN to 60. That is, if they aren't changed entirely.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

A bare minimum change would be bumping Oblation down to ARR levels and maybe TBN to 60. That is, if they aren't changed entirely.

...or give Dark Mind additionally 10% physical mitigation. No need to move Oblation all the way down, it absolutely deserves to be Lv82.

Ignoring the simplicity of implementing this rather than throwing around Level ranges, it hits two birds with one stone...

1.) Fills that extra gap or throughput in mitigation early on (pairs well with Reprisal)
2.) Would solve the issue a pure-magic Dark Mind would have in fights with physical autos, busters and mechanics compared to Camouflage, the physical counterpart to Dark Mind.

[VictorSpoils]

...or give Dark Mind additionally 10% physical mitigation. No need to move Oblation all the way down, it absolutely deserves to be Lv82.

Ignoring the simplicity of implementing this rather than throwing around Level ranges, it hits two birds with one stone...

1.) Fills that extra gap or throughput in mitigation early on (pairs well with Reprisal)
2.) Would solve the issue a pure-magic Dark Mind would have in fights with physical autos, busters and mechanics compared to Camouflage, the physical counterpart to Dark Mind.

That works too, but 70 levels with no support abilities is rather harsh when the other tanks get at least one in that span. They already moved Stalwart Soul down to that range, which made just as much sense. Oblation provides the same 10% mitigation that this new Dark Mind would give, but the latter is available 40 levels sooner and can't target allies.

It's not like Oblation was crucial to getting through those four or so leveling dungeons that you have it in, compared to the flashier abilities the other tanks got. Camouflage also similarly suffers from lack of use in 8-man fights with magic auto-attacks or when off-tanking. The fact that it has a 10% mitigation already built in makes Dark Mind and Oblation look like one action that was split in half.

[Shurrikhan]

Minor per hit healing from Salt and Darkness. 10% physical mit, also, on Dark Mind. Done.

Frankly, even without that, we have tools enough not to need GCD heals as a DRK unless we and/or our party are undergeared.

[Rithy255]

I think it's pretty simple what can change

War needs AOE healing removed to be balanced, also remove regen healing from Shake it off, regen can go off equilibrium as well quite frankly.
PLD needs a tiny bit less healing, I've mentioned before Removing the Magic attack healing and putting *some* of that in another skill such as a way to make clemency OGCD or something.
DRK could use a tiny bit more in AOE, such as making DM have some physical (like 10% while being 20% magic) and giving them some small sustain. (Nothing on par with warrior or even pld, im saying small sustain for a reason).

I think the biggest issue is warrior, As you can't balance having bigger harsher pulls while warrior is in their current state, I personally want to feel more on wall to wall, I want it to be a group effort instead of something i barely think about.

[Supersnow845]

Every time this thread comes up it can basically be summed up as “DRK is getting flak for feeling weak compared to how comically overpowered WAR is in normal content so the obvious answer is to buff DRK and not for some reason nerf WAR”

As a healer main DRK and GNB have the right amount of sustain (especially with things like being able to abuse living dead for a proxy benediction), the problem is WAR, why the hell does bloodwhetting need to be per target hit rather than per GCD, why do shake and equal need regen effects, I don’t like being cucked out of my own role by the tank