Tank mitigation should be balanced to dungeons

[HyonaCookie]

Every time this thread comes up it can basically be summed up as “DRK is getting flak for feeling weak compared to how comically overpowered WAR is in normal content so the obvious answer is to buff DRK and not for some reason nerf WAR”

That's because people are less receptive to the idea of nerfing a job. More people are more likely to agree with you if you ask for buffs, and if you were to suggest nerfs to a job, people who play said job would be up in arms.

[Supersnow845]

That's because people are less receptive to the idea of nerfing a job. More people are more likely to agree with you if you ask for buffs, and if you were to suggest nerfs to a job, people who play said job would be up in arms.

And the fact that they won’t nerf jobs is why we have such insane power creep

Does anyone besides WAR’s want every tank to be able to invalidate healers in all content below extreme

[MikoRemi]

That's because people are less receptive to the idea of nerfing a job. More people are more likely to agree with you if you ask for buffs, and if you were to suggest nerfs to a job, people who play said job would be up in arms.

It's probably why WAR tends to get more buffs in general since I hardly ever see WAR mains go out of their way to mess with other jobs. If anything most of whom I interact with and of course the bald legend himself would rather have all the tanks be good rather than simple warrior.

Trying to explain Loss Aversion in threads like these falls upon deaf ears though unfortunately. While everyone else is busy trying to keep nerfing WAR when historically it only ever at worst, has a bad patch at the beginning of an expansion(2.0 with being unable to handle tankbusters, 4.0 with Shake It Off being useless, 6.0 with Inner Release being expended on all GCD's including Tomahawk), before getting stronger later, they'll find they don't get quite as much buffs as they would like. In trying to bring down WAR constantly, they miss a chance to get some buffs of their own.

Of course, that could just be a theory, but it's interesting to say the least. Telling the truth makes us crazy advocates for power creep apparently even when counters are offered. Nerfs should only be warranted when say, Fell Cleave can take 15% off a Savage bosses HP bar. Core-A Gaming's video on Buffs over Nerfs may be on fighting games but it's quite relevant across the board.

[Supersnow845]

It's probably why WAR tends to get more buffs in general since I hardly ever see WAR mains go out of their way to mess with other jobs. If anything most of whom I interact with and of course the bald legend himself would rather have all the tanks be good rather than simple warrior.

Trying to explain Loss Aversion in threads like these falls upon deaf ears though unfortunately. While everyone else is busy trying to keep nerfing WAR when historically it only ever at worst, has a bad patch at the beginning of an expansion(2.0 with being unable to handle tankbusters, 4.0 with Shake It Off being useless, 6.0 with Inner Release being expended on all GCD's including Tomahawk), before getting stronger later, they'll find they don't get quite as much buffs as they would like. In trying to bring down WAR constantly, they miss a chance to get some buffs of their own.

Of course, that could just be a theory, but it's interesting to say the least. Telling the truth makes us crazy advocates for power creep apparently even when counters are offered. Nerfs should only be warranted when say, Fell Cleave can take 15% off a Savage bosses HP bar. Core-A Gaming's video on Buffs over Nerfs may be on fighting games but it's quite relevant across the board.

The problem is you are coming at this from the perspective of thinking that WAR is good and we are trying to make WAR bad instead of Making the other tanks good when In reality nobody because WAR’s think that WAR is good or healthy for the game

Buffing the other 3 tanks to WAR’s level would either

A) functionally destroy the healer role entirely
B) force square to make healers do something else with their time such as debuff cleansing because they are now not needed as healers which would still destroy any content made prior to the time of the buff

I don’t want to nerf WAR because I don’t like WAR, I want to nerf WAR because it’s existence is destabilising 2 entire roles and it is the entire reason for it, unbalancing 8 entire jobs (and basically all 20 of them in old content) is 100% a valid reason for a nerf

[MikoRemi]

This is why I've said in multiple threads, Healer's can focus more on cleansing for a start, then because of the fact all the tanks have sustain the content will be changed to reflect that. I mean we already have some previous dungeons getting reworked like Copperbell Mines and Thousand Maw Totorak, but yes it will take time to get everything reworked but that's just the state of the direction. Again, we have multiple dooms coming in dungeons at this point that require cleansing when before, you were lucky to see it in something like Sunken Temple of Qarn as a stage check. Going back to the content having to challenge all tanks even with their sustain, Healer's in general should be worked more to be like Sage in that offense=healing. They would have more offensive buttons to deal more damage and be active in general, instead of just spamming dia>glare>glare>glare and being bored all day.

I'm tired of the assumption that if all tanks had sustain in general, whether it's similar to WAR or god forbid they make all types of sustain unique but at least usable, that NOTHING in the game would change at all to accomodate that. If you're worried about destroying old content, we already do that by default, try running Satasha's at any point now vs remembering how it was in SB. It was probably even more different in ARR and HW too. That's not even a valid excuse anymore but hey, at least they're trying to fix old content piece by piece so who knows where everything will be in time anyway.

Meanwhile WAR is one of the few tanks that had actual really big issues, like unable to survive tankbusters in ARR, or doing not enough damage in P8S that you have to go GNB or DRK or you're trolling. PLD has it's own issues but I don't see any of them whining about WAR. The only reason WAR gets unbalanced is DRK and rarely GNB it seems want to just try to drag WAR down when they should try to bring themselves up. So by extension, WAR gets buffs when there's actual problems that get addressed while the others don't because they don't address their own stuff enough. WAR is fun, and whether or not you like WAR, asking for nerfs ain't going to go well.

When we have to wait for the bald man to fix DRK's Living Dead by spotlighting how bad it is when he isn't even a DRK main, that's pretty gruesome.

[PercibelTheren]

I don't really tank, but I do heal a lot. I can tell you that a DRK who knows what they're doing will seemingly be taking nearly no damage save for the starts of big pulls. You can slap two or three OGCDs on them and they're golden (compared to WAR who doesn't need you at all). They're fine. It's just that DRK is on the more complex side of things when it comes to actually playing it well, I guess.

[Oizen]

I don't really tank, but I do heal a lot. I can tell you that a DRK who knows what they're doing will seemingly be taking nearly no damage save for the starts of big pulls. You can slap two or three OGCDs on them and they're golden (compared to WAR who doesn't need you at all). They're fine. It's just that DRK is on the more complex side of things when it comes to actually playing it well, I guess.

Now do it in lv 60 content

[Rithy255]

Really I just think early dungeons is bad for tanks, I feel like most tanks at 60 or below feel really awful to play (maybe outside warrior but i don't like warrior lol), PLD needs spells (a massive part of its identity that it doesn't get until stormblood) and some small sustain earlier, DRK/GNB need short mit and raid wides earlier. Also just give us gap closers all around 50-60 (if not eariler). Personally I don't want to play any tank at lower levels it feels so boring.

[VictorSpoils]

Really I just think early dungeons is bad for tanks, I feel like most tanks at 60 or below feel really awful to play (maybe outside warrior but i don't like warrior lol), PLD needs spells (a massive part of its identity that it doesn't get until stormblood) and some small sustain earlier, DRK/GNB need short mit and raid wides earlier. Also just give us gap closers all around 50-60 (if not eariler). Personally I don't want to play any tank at lower levels it feels so boring.

I especially noticed when soloing Aquapolis that WAR has Thrill of Battle, Raw Intuition, and Equilibrium at 60 to go with everything else. It's in a league of its own.

[Oizen]

Really I just think early dungeons is bad for tanks, I feel like most tanks at 60 or below feel really awful to play (maybe outside warrior but i don't like warrior lol), PLD needs spells (a massive part of its identity that it doesn't get until stormblood) and some small sustain earlier, DRK/GNB need short mit and raid wides earlier. Also just give us gap closers all around 50-60 (if not eariler). Personally I don't want to play any tank at lower levels it feels so boring.

DRK and GNB's raidwide are less than useless in dungeons though, unless they want to make them into full mitigation instead of just magic.

To be honest this isn't even a tank specific issue, Level sync in this game is ass, and when jobs are added or reworked it is never taken into consideration.