What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Theodric]

The Echo gives people different abilities and it's Venat's unique flavor of it that allows sight to the past.

We know at the minimum our character as a shard of Azem and former member of the Convocation also possesses the ability to see the past, something that the player character has accomplished a great many times already through the course of the story.

[Turtledeluxe]

The "glimpsing the past" version of the Echo is the only one we've ever actually seen anyone using in the MSQ proper, and while it's suggested we have a particularly keen ability to do so (Krile mentions that the shared vision of what Estinien experienced back in Garlemald wasn't quite as clear as ours), there's nothing that suggests it's a rare trait.

There's nothing in the cutscene that was linked or in thr game that indicates Ancient's "casually view the past". In fact it's the opposite, the game is full of evidence from Hythlodeus statements to Fordola to Lahabrea that the Echo can be used in many different ways.

Even if the link did prove that, even if all the Ancients did it, the rules of peering into the past wouldn't work on Hythlodeus and Emet because it's not in their memory. So you'd have two conflicting versions of events happening, plus an Aether altering element in the mix with Kairos.

Also no it isn't the "only way we have seen anyone use it". Why are people liking these posts??? Zenos literally used it to body hop and its discussed at length. Fordola used it to anticipate movements in combat. The echo is not exclusively a past viewing mechanism-- it's a power derived from the Ancients that allowed them to manipulate reality. But as Hytholdeus tells us, they have all kinds of specific talents.

If it's so obvious that all the Ancient's casually view rhe past, then where is the in game scene confirming that. Does anyone other than Venat talk about it? Does Venat tell us it's casually done? She tells us how she uses it and teaches us..something that then goes down the line of her followers.

[Absimiliard]

The Echo has been shown to grant certain common powers alongside more specific ones. One such example would be the ability to understand the words spoken by those who share no language. It is worth noting we have seen multiple individuals peer into the past, although I can't say for certain if this is a power common to all or if it's simply something ancients and their fragments were likely to possess. What we do know is we've seen several characters utilize it at various points. It's also possible to peer into the past of a place or object, but we are told it becomes less reliable as time passes.

Both comprehension of speech and viewing a subject's past operate via resonance of the souls. Gleaning information about a place or thing instead functions by reading residual aether, as explained by Venat in Elpis. I might note the wording used during the explanation implies this is indeed a trait common to ancients in general.

[Vyrerus]

Literally every Warrior of Darkness upon meeting the WoL and Scions in HW at the Gnath Colony in Dravnian Forelands have echo visions seeing our past, and know that we had an echo vision seeing theirs.

Arenvald remarks on seeing Fordola's past, and uses it to try and build common ground with her.

Fordola sees the past of literally everyone who has an emotion in or near her cell. Most notably the entirety of the WoL's up to that point in time.

Venat's whole life could be viewed using it by any Ancient capable of controlling their Echo. They would be able to see her meet the WoL. WoL's tea meeting with her, Emet, and Hyth. The excursion into Ktsis. And then the conversations she had with the WoL after Ktsis. Not too mention all of the eye witness accounts of her entering, the facility being put on lockdown, Hades remarking on having to team up and do party roles etc..

This has been pointed out to be one of the biggest gaping plot holes in all of 6.0. Many times before. There's no real way to deny it.

[Turtledeluxe]

Venat does make a comment about history being preserved, but it's unclear if that's a translation issue (if she is talking about a formal process in which Ancient's record history that seems very out of place, versus talking about something maybe she does on her own) or meant to be taken literally. If history is constantly being analyzed and recorded, why does no one except the line of Venat use the Echo as such? Why didn't someone other than Venat solve the Final Days without her help? Why didn't Emet figure out who we are...twice...by ignoring our pasts in the First and in Elpis?

Why is the ever any conflict at all in the game if history can just be looked into on a whim?

And I realize that the MSQ trivializes it but the MSQ is current day and all of those people are in Venat's circle.

[Absimiliard]

Why didn't Emet figure out who we are...twice...by ignoring our pasts in the First and in Elpis?

Because everyone else who knew the truth was either dead, memory-wiped by Kairos, or returned to their own place in the timeline.

Why didn't Emet figure out who we are...twice...by ignoring our pasts in the First and in Elpis?

The trip to Elpis hadn't yet happened when first the WoL met Emet-Selch on the First, and he in turn had no way of recalling them due to having had his memories purged by Kairos. The second instance of meeting Emet-Selch occurred while he was still whole and choosing to abide by his people's societal norms, which meant not randomly looking into the minds of others. Unlike the WoL, the ancients had full control of their Echo.

Why is the ever any conflict at all in the game if history can just be looked into on a whim?

Because the Echo is extremely rare. Everyone technically has it, but very few actually awaken it during their mortal lifetime. Plus it would be all kinds of boring from a narrative perspective. You could maybe get away with that once or twice if you handled it well, but I don't think people would be too keen on seeing it happen often.

[Turtledeluxe]

Because everyone else who knew the truth was either dead, memory-wiped by Kairos, or returned to their own place in the timeline.



The trip to Elpis hadn't yet happened when first the WoL met Emet-Selch on the First, and he in turn had no way of recalling them due to having had his memories purged by Kairos. The second instance of meeting Emet-Selch occurred while he was still whole and choosing to abide by his people's societal norms, which meant not randomly looking into the minds of others. Unlike the WoL, the ancients had full control of their Echo.



Because the Echo is extremely rare. Everyone technically has it, but very few actually awaken it during their mortal lifetime. Plus it would be all kinds of boring from a narrative perspective. You could maybe get away with that once or twice if you handled it well, but I don't think people would be too keen on seeing it happen often.

That's not how the rules work. Venat tells us you need the subject to recall or you can view it etched into the Aether, albeit it is unreliable. My point being the trip may not have happened but technically the events are "preserved" according to the rules unless you want to say it was one of those events prone to waning or perhaps Kairos affected it (as operates using Aether waves). But in that case why don't the rules apply to the events in the past well? Or can Venat/ whoever only pull an instance of the Kairos event only when convenient for EW critics?

The fact is it is a flavor of Venat using the echo. It's unclear whether it's common knowledge or even how reliable it is to begin with. Venat did clue certain people into the fold and they weren't able to stop the reaction of summoning Zodiark. When faced with the choice of a tempered future she gambled and sundered the world. Very simple.

[Absimiliard]

That's not how the rules work. Venat tells us you need the subject to recall or you can view it etched into the Aether, albeit it is unreliable. My point being the trip may not have happened but technically the events are "preserved" according to the rules unless you want to say it was one of those events prone to waning or perhaps Kairos affected it (as operates using Aether waves). But in that case why don't the rules apply to the events in the past well? Or can Venat/ whoever only pull an instance of the Kairos event only when convenient for EW critics?

The fact is it is a flavor of Venat using the echo. It's unclear whether it's common knowledge or even how reliable it is to begin with. Venat did clue certain people into the fold and they weren't able to stop the reaction of summoning Zodiark. When faced with the choice of a tempered future she gambled and sundered the world. Very simple.

Do you think aether ignores the flow of time? Because it doesn't. An experience cannot be etched into aether if it has never occurred, just like it can't dwell in someone's memories. The trip to the First occurred earlier in the WoL's personal timeline than their trip to Elpis, meaning Elpis and its events would have no bearing whatsoever on that leg of their journey.

Venat did clue certain people into the fold and they weren't able to stop the reaction of summoning Zodiark. When faced with the choice of a tempered future she gambled and sundered the world. Very simple.

We're told quite explicitly she withheld the truth even from her closest followers.

[Turtledeluxe]

I don't understand your question. Whether or not the trip occurred, the past could still be viewed in terms of Hermes plotting and Meteion flying off multiple times. If anything you can't really rely on the post Elpis visit instance at all because as we know, that instance cannot directly change history. The fact is the goal posts just continue moving because first it was "Venat should have told someone" then it was "Ancients casually view the past"..now here we are.

So please explain again how in the original timeline, Venat could have done better given that she did tell certain people and they failed. How could she have done better in post visit instance when it can't affect history? Where is the venat plot hole?

[Absimiliard]

I don't understand your question. Whether or not the trip occurred, the past could still be viewed in terms of Hermes plotting and Meteion flying off multiple times. If anything you can't really rely on the post Elpis visit instance at all because as we know, that instance cannot directly change history. The fact is the goal posts just continue moving because first it was "Venat should have told someone" then it was "Ancients casually view the past"..now here we are.

So no

You're the one moving the goalposts here.

My question was simple:
Do you believe aether ignores the flow of time? As in, do you believe the Echo could be used to see in a character's soul/aether events that version of them hadn't yet experienced? Because this is effectively what you were claiming in the post I asked my question in reply to, and it does not make sense.