What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Turtledeluxe]

You're the one moving the goalposts here. You're also going out of your way to not make sense, from what I can tell.

For example, you claim the Emet-Selch the WoL met on the First should have been able to glean both their identity and experiences they hadn't yet. In what way does this make sense? Like I said, time is linear. In Shadowbringers the WoL had not yet been to Elpis, even if a different version of them might have in a previous cycle of this potential bootstrap paradox. In other words, there's nothing there for anyone to pick up on.

My question was simple:
Do you believe aether ignores the flow of time? As in, do you believe the Echo could be used to see in a character's soul/aether events that version of them hadn't yet experienced? Because, and I reiterate, time is linear.

Yes it is technically true he could not viewed our memories because the trip had not yet happened yet. Are you happy? Please address the Venat plot hole. Tbh it was an off the cuff comment I just didn't think much about because the idea Ancient's casually view the past is wrong.

Ancients casually use the Echo which is revealed in multiple instances from multiple sources to be a versatile power.

[Ravenblade1979]

I don't understand your question. Whether or not the trip occurred, the past could still be viewed in terms of Hermes plotting and Meteion flying off multiple times. If anything you can't really rely on the post Elpis visit instance at all because as we know, that instance cannot directly change history. The fact is the goal posts just continue moving because first it was "Venat should have told someone" then it was "Ancients casually view the past"..now here we are.

So no

Totally right. People tend to forget that before we go to elpis. On the first when we interact with what's left of Elidibus. He actually mentions remembering we were there on elpis.

So saying that, you are correct. We couldn't change history but from him remembering sets it up for us actually being a part of what unfolded there. They reused this as well during panda raid story.

Also if you wonder had we not taken the trip. Could hythlodaeus and emet and venat stumbled upon what Hermes was doing. Or would have hermes plans gone unnoticed and the cataclysmic events happen far sooner then they did.

Like we know venat and them are wicked smart but just how smart. Something to think on.

[Ravenblade1979]

You're the one moving the goalposts here.

My question was simple:
Do you believe aether ignores the flow of time? As in, do you believe the Echo could be used to see in a character's soul/aether events that version of them hadn't yet experienced? Because this is effectively what you were claiming in the post I asked my question in reply to, and it does not make sense.

Actually no. It's been setup for awhile now that the echo let's you see a person's past. Although it's not easily controlled to allow you to do so. As far as it goes. Not use in clairvoyance of seeing ones future.

[Turtledeluxe]

Totally right. People tend to forget that before we go to elpis. On the first when we interact with what's left of Elidibus. He actually mentions remembering we were there on elpis.

So saying that, you are correct. We couldn't change history but from him remembering sets it up for us actually being a part of what unfolded there. They reused this as well during panda raid story.

Also if you wonder had we not taken the trip. Could hythlodaeus and emet and venat stumbled upon what Hermes was doing. Or would have hermes plans gone unnoticed and the cataclysmic events happen far sooner then they did.

Like we know venat and them are wicked smart but just how smart. Something to think on.

The only thing it is unclear if he's referring to seeing Azem us or something or confirming the events of the Ew trip where we spoil the future. My point is that with or without the WoL being in Elpis there's still past to view and investigate because the original timeline, no matter what, leads to Meteion and the final days.

The reason I say this is because the WoL may have been in original Elpis but they don't remember it. So there's something going on there.

[Absimiliard]

Yes it is technically true he could not viewed our memories because the trip had not yet happened yet. Are you happy? Please address the Venat plot hole.

The Pandaemonium raid is canon. The post-Elpis visit indeed happened. Additionally, I would note you're under a bit of a misapprehension regarding whether or not the WoL could affect change during their initial visit. They were told by Elidibus they'd be little more than a shade and thus unable to affect things, but Emet-Selch remedied this problem. They were granted substance and presence, and so they gained the ability to interact with the world of the past in a way Elidibus had no way of knowing would occur. I also recall there being a warning they might not have a time to return to in the event they did somehow find a way to alter things.

As for Venat; she could simply have chosen to try and save her people. Instead, she took to heart the future she'd been told about and decided she'd aim for it instead. The nature of this particular bootstrap paradox precludes the possibility of the WoL having any real choice in matters, but it does not strip agency from Venat. There were other options available to her. This is the crux of the matter. If she had agency, which as of current writing we know she did, then she chose to stay the course despite having been granted a complete picture of future events by the WoL. She had full foreknowledge of the suffering her decision would bring, of what the Ascians would ultimately become and do, and of just how horrible the sundered would be toward one another.

For clarity: a bootstrap paradox is a situation wherein you've a repeating cycle sustained by time travel that has no defined beginning or end. Venat cannot know the WoL's specific future and thus decide to try and reach it without first being told it, and in turn the WoL would not exist, let alone travel back to Elpis, in the event Venat never gained this knowledge and thus enacted the sundering. You might also call this a predestination paradox. Where this differs from your typical example is one of the participants being allowed to maintain their agency, while the other is not.

Actually no. It's been setup for awhile now that the echo let's you see a person's past. Although it's not easily controlled to allow you to do so. As far as it goes. Not use in clairvoyance of seeing ones future.

I... didn't even remotely imply it can? The poster I was replying to was claiming the WoL's trip to Elips somehow meant Emet-Selch should've been able to see it in their aether when they met on the First, which makes no sense. They have since recanted that claim.

[Turtledeluxe]

Actually no. It's been setup for awhile now that the echo let's you see a person's past. Although it's not easily controlled to allow you to do so. As far as it goes. Not use in clairvoyance of seeing ones future.

Fordola uses it for clairvoyance actually but it's limited and why I'm not arguing that Emet could have viewed our Elpis trip.

[Turtledeluxe]

The Pandaemonium raid is canon. The post-Elpis visit indeed happened. Additionally, I would note you're under a bit of a misapprehension regarding whether or not the WoL could affect change during their initial visit. They were told by Elidibus they'd be little more than a shade and thus unable to affect things, but Emet-Selch remedied this problem. They were granted substance and presence, and so they gained the ability to interact with the world of the past in a way Elidibus had no way of knowing would occur.

I know it happened. But it's not clear whether it was an exact replication of what happened originally or a deviant timeline. As far as Emet "remedying the problem" I don't buy that. I think the entire point of it is that no matter what happens, our actions in the Elpis wouldn't change the course of history ie stop the final days from occurring. Hence why despite what Emet did, it still happened.

As for Venat; she could simply have chosen to try and save her people. Instead, she took to heart the future she'd been told about and decided she'd aim for it instead.

She did try and she failed.

[Absimiliard]

I know it happened. But it's not clear whether it was an exact replication of what happened originally or a deviant timeline. As far as Emet "remedying the problem" I don't buy that. I think the entire point of it is that no matter what happens, our actions in the Elpis wouldn't change the course of history ie stop the final days from occurring. Hence why despite what Emet did, it still happened.

Nowhere in anything pertaining to Pandaemonium is it remotely implied there's a tangential timeline at play. Quite to the contrary; we are explicitly in the same Elpis for the portion of the story taking place there.

Now, here's a question:
If the WoL was unable to effect change in Elpis, how exactly is it they are directly responsible for morbols? And no, I'm not joking. That's a thing you can do while you're there, and the game makes it super apparent their continued existence in the modern world is entirely your fault. There's also the matter of the WoL having say in what traits behemoths have.

She did try and she failed.

The writers make it clear that she at no point divulged what she knew of Meteion or the world's future to her people.

I should also point out Emet-Selch only made it through the sundering intact because she intentionally left a crack in it with full expectation he would recognize it and save himself. This action was deliberately carried out with the intent of facilitating the timeline she'd had described to her by the Warrior of Light. Noting of course she possessed full knowledge of what Emet-Selch and his fellow Ascians would become in time, their objectives, and the untold deaths they would cause in the pursuit of those objectives.

[Turtledeluxe]

Nowhere in anything pertaining to Pandaemonium is it remotely implied there's a tangential timeline at play. Quite to the contrary; we are explicitly in the same Elpis for the portion of the story taking place there.

Now, here's a question:
If the WoL was unable to effect change in Elpis, how exactly is it they are directly responsible for morbols? And no, I'm not joking. That's a thing you can do while you're there, and the game makes it super apparent their continued existence in the modern world is entirely your fault. There's also the matter of the WoL having say in what traits behemoths have.



The writers make it clear that she at no point divulged what she knew of Meteion or the world's future to her people.

I should also point out Emet-Selch only made it through the sundering intact because she intentionally left a crack in it with full expectation he would recognize it and save himself. This action was deliberately carried out with the intent of facilitating the timeline she'd had described to her by the Warrior of Light. Noting of course she possessed full knowledge of what Emet-Selch and his fellow Ascians would become in time, their objectives, and the untold deaths they would cause in the pursuit of those objectives.

If our Elpis visit is what actually happened in the original time then I don't understand your original argument that Emet couldn't have gleaned our past from someone who saw us or the Aether. His memories were wiped and we are clearly a reincarnation but surely since it's so casual he could find it from some other subject or the Aether? And then what about everyone else who were investigating the final days? I've already asked why is Venat the single person who can solve the mystery? Bc you want to poke holes in EW or?

Her playing games with Emet doesn't prove anything. The point is she explicitly tells us she's going to bring people I to the fold and I assume she does (the Twelve??) but whatever she does fails because she can't stop the Zodiark solution...

Emet also says "our solutions would not have brought mankind this far". So Venat has those solutions because why???

[Xirean]

Just gonna throw out there that Venat directly shows the WoL how she could have shown the convocation what happened. By just going to the physical places where events occurred she can look into the past and bring others with the Echo with her into the vision. Theoretically, other convocation members could do this without her help, but the point stands that the solution is painted very clearly right in front of us as players.

Also just gotta say that Emet not caring to learn what he forgot seems rather out of character.