What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Theodric]

I think the reason why it doesnt get called out because it would acknowledge the paradoxical ethics of mankind. In which villians actively trying to destroy your life is considered wrong but if the Scions criticized Venat/Hydaelyn for her actions then they would have to deny their own existence. Ilberd, Thordan, Emet-Selch etc where all active antagonists wanting to kill us so of course they are the villians but to them we arent worth as living beings because they value something greater (which was the theme behind Shadowbringers and Emet-Selch). And the event of the Sundering happened millenia ago by the time of the game so there was no point to judge Hydaeleyn for her actions because its the whole crux for why we exist in the first place.

Because seriously how would you even respond to this?

"How dare you do this thing to your people which created our existence!" Should we just accept that the Ascians are in the right all along and that we dont mean anything?

It doesn't matter if it happened "millennia" ago, we're visiting the past in the here and now and interacting with the people she slaughtered even after Endsinger was dealt with by going back in time once again to interact with them for the benefit of the present day Sundered.

Venat's plan is to force the Scions to defeat her in battle or force them off the Star. Her plan entails the Shards will perish and is futile because Endsinger won't stop. All of that is ample reason for them to criticise her either in her presence, or to reflect on her actions later.

There is not even criticism in reflection of any of this as there was with Thordan and the Scions certainly won't stop existing if they ask why she didn't try other methods or view her with contempt. A serial killer can save someone's life though that individual can still be horrified by the fact that their saviour is a mass murderer. Furthermore, we've seen the Scions call out their own allies many times before. The entirety of the game is full of preaching on that front, no matter how mysteriously bereft it is when one of the greatest atrocities present in the setting is revealed.

There's this, for example:



Much as they're willing to criticise their own father they could easily aim similar comments at Venat...

I think you're simply being disingenuous and attempting to build up a straw-man to deflect away from the idea of Venat ever being held accountable in any meaningful way for her actions. It's perfectly possible to acknowledge the crime that is the Sundering without wanting to be unmade or considering the act of unmaking a good thing.

Ishgard faced same issue with Thordan and the church, who both acted as they did to preserve it from the dragons and seeded a noble lie on that basis. Nonetheless, they are still called out for it - by Ishgardians, no less.

The Nibirun situation is judging them for a pre-crime and she never addresses the situation to her people to allow them to confront it. The Nibirun themselves are shown to have hope rekindled in the Omicron tribe quests. They are but one Dead End of many, and one equally open to the sundered, since the Nibirun themselves were once mortal.

The Sundered have many flaws, shown throughout game and expansions isn't considered sufficient for them not to have a right to fight for their existence. The same areas you mention also showcase many of the virtues of ancient society, especially if you do the side quests. It may not be a perfect utopia but it is still a world that has achieved many, many good things.. Whatever JRPG themes the story might think it is aping here, it is ultimately trying to sell a genocide as necessary and there is no two ways about it. Meanwhile the Scions will still aim at the same lofty goals that would presumably result - if we take the story at face value - in the third dead end without a hint of irony

[Atelier-Bagur]

I don't believe they would need to deny their own existence to acknowledge a past wrongdoing. Many of us are descended from murderers and worse. Many countries were built upon foundations of blood and sorrow. Does acknowledging the wrongdoings of our forebears mean we must deny the value in our own lives?

Sometimes it isn't even a case of looking to call someone out. Sometimes one simply needs to acknowledge wrong was done and go on with their lives afterward. What's done is done, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth a moment of reflection. This is especially true in the case of past atrocities, whether or not they in any way impact people of the modern age. To disregard them is to risk repeating them one day.

I agree, which is why in terms of story it would've been redundant or perhaps even more of a dilemma if it tried to deep focus on Venat's actions whether it be right or wrong. Which wasnt the whole point behind the MSQ anyway, it was about stopping the Final Days. At the very least the game does give you the option to give your own opinion of the matter in that one part where you discussed about the Ancients with the Watcher in Mare. It's also very telling that due to the experiences with the Ancient's trying to do everything without regard of other people (including Venat) is why we nowadays get portions of a story with the Scions having to consider and discuss their plan of actions with other groups of people like Garlemald or the people of Norvrandt rather than just not caring and do whatever the hell he want.

And with the way the game already gives a sympathetic light towards Emet and his actions and a lot of other characters for that matter, its no brainer why Venat would also get a pass as well.

[Nayukhuut]

True, but I think its more so that she realizes as well as the audience that the Ancients's way of life and civilization of eternal paradise would eventually be its downfall, because of Meteion's report confirming that many other civilizations strived for the same paradise as they did but wound up destroyed. The game shows to us the flaws in their system through both the MSQ and quests in Elpis and Dream Amaraout. There's also the factor that the WoL being there and the events and experiences he/she shared to Venat privately convinced her there was some worth and hope for the star's future due to mankind having to learn to adapt and grow from what we consider the everyday struggles of life. Most of these stories in jrpgs are always written in criticism of the concept of a "utopia" so its most likely the reason why the writers wanted to make Venat come off that way as a Prometheus like figure; which goes with both her character in this game and in FFXII where the Venat the Occurria rebelled against her own kind to give mankind true freedom.

The Nibirun are not a good parallel. Not only did they value different things than the Ancients, they were also shown to be open to reason in the end. As for the Sundered not being on that path, we could easily end up as the civilisation in the Dead Ends too. We are certainly more prone to things like war and over using resources than the Ancients were.

I think the reason why it doesnt get called out because it would acknowledge the paradoxical ethics of mankind. In which villians actively trying to destroy your life is considered wrong but if the Scions criticized Venat/Hydaelyn for her actions then they would have to deny their own existence. Ilberd, Thordan, Emet-Selch etc where all active antagonists wanting to kill us so of course they are the villians but to them we arent worth as living beings because they value something greater (which was the theme behind Shadowbringers and Emet-Selch). And the event of the Sundering happened millenia ago by the time of the game so there was no point to judge Hydaeleyn for her actions because its the whole crux for why we exist in the first place.

Because seriously how would you even respond to this?

"How dare you do this thing to your people which created our existence!" Should we just accept that the Ascians are in the right all along and that we dont mean anything?

I would have taken a "This is the world we have no so we will fight for it and our lives, but Venat was still wrong to do what she did to an entire people" approach. Basically acknowledging her actions instead of just comforting her and pretending she's nothing but love and life. We only have the option to comfort her. I would have liked to call her out.

[Xirean]

I would have taken a "This is the world we have no so we will fight for it and our lives, but Venat was still wrong to do what she did to an entire people" approach. Basically acknowledging her actions instead of just comforting her and pretending she's nothing but love and life. We only have the option to comfort her. I would have liked to call her out.

This is basically the root issue with the EW launch story imo. There's plenty of other stumbling blocks that people can point at, but the single inability to say "What Venat did was wrong/horrible/atrocious/evil and she should have taken different actions." basically poisons quite a bit of the foundational lore of the game. I wouldn't be surprised if a decent number of people want to not be around most of the Scions any more explicitly because they didn't call her out.

[Nayukhuut]

This is basically the root issue with the EW launch story imo. There's plenty of other stumbling blocks that people can point at, but the single inability to say "What Venat did was wrong/horrible/atrocious/evil and she should have taken different actions." basically poisons quite a bit of the foundational lore of the game. I wouldn't be surprised if a decent number of people want to not be around most of the Scions any more explicitly because they didn't call her out.

That is exactly what soured me on the Scions. Us, and them, keep going around spouting morals we no longer agree on. We went from free will is good and no one is beyond hope, to free will is mostly good and only some people are worth saving. And then they keep spouting the same tired old lines and pretending everyone matters all the same. All which means nothing when when they are not willing to call out when the people on their side commit atrocities too.

I feel like a hypocrite as I go through the story now, and I hate it.

[Turtledeluxe]

Except they can't, and it's never been shown nor hinted they could. For one thing, the entire Elpis story never would've happened if Emet-Selch could've just read our past as soon as we arrived, and he's grouchy and suspicious enough that he would've done it.

Watch the video linked for the quest.
The Echo gives people different abilities and it's Venat's unique flavor of it that allows sight to the past. It's never casually stated all Ancients visit the past. The echo varies. That's why the Ancients have specialities. Venat's echo permeates followers of the Twelve, that doesn't mean it was an every day occurrence in Elpis. Finally pay attention to the rules-- the subject has to remember and the main people that would need to be convinced are memory wiped. It also could be etched into the Aether but that is shaky on its own not to mention Kairos alters the Aether.

Not to mention, as someone else noted, Venat basically explains. She does tell the Twelve, obviously. She explains that she is going to develop a force. But her goal was to use Hermes's insights rather than instigate chaos.

[Lunaxia]

What I still don't get is why there couldn't be a timeline split offering the Ancients even a chance of a better future, even if it's not definitive, or we never truly know for sure - just add in something that knocks the time loop off a fraction and we get a hint that something has changed, or suggests, for example, one of the Ancients wound up knowing more than they let on about what we had to say and managed to do something about it. It didn't even have to be explicit, just a "do you think...?" thrown in there somewhere. There's literally an alternate timeline where we're dead and the world has been reduced to chaos that G'raha managed to unmake and he still exists, so why even the possibility of a better outcome was denied to them is beyond my comprehension. It's not even a case of whether or not you like or sympathise with the Ancients, it's reconciling the writing and the moral standards of the characters with everything they've made a point of emphasising before so it doesn't hideously contradict itself.

You could argue "but Pandaemonium!"... but they could have just stuck it even right there at the end of the raid storyline. Have Themis and Eric be the potential catalyst behind it, which thematically would actually be a great fit because in Eric you actually have someone who overcame loss, isolation, despair and abuse and faced up to his fears in his father and his mother. It was right there, and in an expansion that emphasises life and hope and triumph in the face of hopelessness and adversity, it would have felt a lot more uplifting and fitting than handwaving everything they wound up going through with "welp, sucks to be them lol" while going out of our way to save everyone else we meet along the way who didn't need to make way for our survival, and make the WoL look less like a self-involved plank.

[Turtledeluxe]

Lil bro yapping about no evidence when the Ancients can just casually peer into the past with the echo.

Actually you don't know what you're talking about but that's okay..most people popping off about endwalker don't.

[KageTokage]

The "glimpsing the past" version of the Echo is the only one we've ever actually seen anyone using in the MSQ proper, and while it's suggested we have a particularly keen ability to do so (Krile mentions that the shared vision of what Estinien experienced back in Garlemald wasn't quite as clear as ours), there's nothing that suggests it's a rare trait.

[Theodric]

At the very least the game does give you the option to give your own opinion of the matter in that one part where you discussed about the Ancients with the Watcher in Mare.

As far as the Omega side quest is concerned and the brief bit of push back allowed to relay one's thoughts on the Ancients...that'd be more of a compromise if it were put in the actual MSQ and involved the main party in it rather than have it hidden away in a quest chain that many players simply aren't going to do due to being entirely optional. Furthermore the game continues to fluff her up and present what she did via the codex and questionable English localisation decisions as a necessary act, even skewing her role to be more important than it was and making other entries like Zodiark's all about her, while presenting Ascians more matter-of-factly.

It's also very telling that due to the experiences with the Ancient's trying to do everything without regard of other people (including Venat) is why we nowadays get portions of a story with the Scions having to consider and discuss their plan of actions with other groups of people like Garlemald or the people of Norvrandt rather than just not caring and do whatever the hell he want.

...you mean exactly how the Ancients operated? The Scions are simply approximating the way the Ancients went about things, which is research and debate.

And with the way the game already gives a sympathetic light towards Emet and his actions and a lot of other characters for that matter, its no brainer why Venat would also get a pass as well.

That was back in Shadowbringers and involved Emet-Selch being shown to be an understandably tragic figure who had witnessed his entire civilisation and practically every person he had ever known wiped out. He never truly gets a 'pass', though since the game bends over backwards to hold him accountable for his actions and has multiple moments where the Scions confront him over the consequences of his actions.

Venat gets barely anything resembling that and as mentioned earlier, is propped up to a ridiculous degree and even falsely credited for things that aren't even her own doing. Some excellent examples of that can be found within the following thread:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5984120

For example, this is the French localisation which tracks closely to the Japanese version:



"Hydaelyn, or rather Venat, could perhaps help us out. After all, she was there when Zodiark was summoned to fight against the Final Days. She was also the one who kept him alive to protect us."

This, however, is the English variant which mysteriously credits Hydaelyn for everything with no acknowledgement of Zodiark's contributions: