What's going on Frontlines?

[Mayhemmer]

You're aware you can get those numbers solo, and that ultimately they don't tell me much right? How do they tell you those players were in premades?

Huh, I don't know. Same team, stacked job, all sticking so close to each other the whole match they might as well be holding hands, diving together at once, retreating together at once, in-sync skill usage, all appearing together multiple matches in a row... I guess it's a mystery... /s

The ultimate point isn't about premades; I did say they weren't the root issue. It's the fact that a healer can top the damage chart in the first place.

Just use a job with heavy, easy splash application like, gasp, DRG, SMN, SCH or AST. I've seen solo players going over 4M damage a game.

You sure do give a lot of "just do this, just do that" perfect scenario responses to things, even after claiming you don't like when people do.

See, I'd agree with that statement, because it's the same in CC, and I'm sick of people using the same cookiee cutter, perfect scenario replies.

[Valence]

Huh, I don't know. Same team, stacked job, all sticking so close to each other the whole match they might as well be holding hands, diving together at once, retreating together at once, in-sync skill usage, all appearing together multiple matches in a row... I guess it's a mystery... /s

Sounds more like wishful thinking and jumping to conclusions to me but whatever comforts you I guess. Either way, even if they were in a premade, those numbers are pretty mediocre overall compared to what can even be achieved solo, so I'm not sure chief.

You sure do give a lot of "just do this, just do that" perfect scenario responses to things, even after claiming you don't like when people do.

Let me rephrase then: remove the "just do", and replace by "those jobs can easily reach those numbers solo".

The ultimate point isn't about premades; I did say they weren't the root issue. It's the fact that a healer can top the damage chart in the first place.

In a relatively role agnostic pvp model, this comment puzzles me the most.

[Mayhemmer]

Snip.

The point I've been making for the past 3-4 posts has never been about being able to make number go up solo or in a group. It was about pre-mades, among many things, shining a light on Frontlines baked-in issues and that said issues should be resolved. I just don't really know what to tell you if you don't want to get that.

Though, honestly, I don't believe these issues even can be resolved without some pretty massive changes to FL's core design, and I don't have any reason to believe the dev team is willing to bother, let alone acknowledge them.

I can't believe these guys, playing together in team based mode in an MMO.
The nerve of some people.

I see you're having this issue as well. Try going back and reading the rest of the thread leading up to this, it might clear up your confusion.

[kayll]

It is indeed a "team-based mode" where the team consists of 24 players. It seems rather sad to me that people construct 4-person premades to inflate their personal stats. Just because the exploit is permissible doesn't stop it being an exploit.

Sometimes I play PvP without a keyboard, since you are using one does that mean you are exploiting?

I see you're having this issue as well. Try going back and reading the rest of the thread leading up to this, it might clear up your confusion.

Nah, I acknowledge that Frontlines has glaring issues, but are you seriously expecting them to basically remake PvP again instead of just disabling party queue and calling a day?

[Valence]

The point I've been making for the past 3-4 posts has never been about being able to make number go up solo or in a group. It was about pre-mades, among many things, shining a light on Frontlines baked-in issues and that said issues should be resolved. I just don't really know what to tell you if you don't want to get that.

You said above, quoting: "The ultimate point isn't about premades; I did say they weren't the root issue. It's the fact that a healer can top the damage chart in the first place.".

I noticed the "among many things" on this one, but please understand that you keep jumping from one statement to a relatively contrary other statement just after, so that's a little confusing to say the least.

[Sinstrel]

In the beginning of the PvP re-work everyone complained about WHM and SAM limit break. Although there were some slight nerfs to WHM, overall, people improved and became aware of the easy gimps. Then came the complaints about SCH, DRG and SMN. As players got more experience they then learned how useful DRK and and AST were and now we are complaining about these jobs.

Could it be perhaps that not the majority of games you lose are because of 2-4 friends playing together and instead because players, overall, are becoming more experienced and aware of the best advantages and scenarios to press their buttons?

If they removed the ability to que with even a single friend, I feel like complaints would continue pouring in to nerf whatever job combination experienced players come up with. From the devs point of view, it seems like a lose-lose scenario where we end up with no ability to que with any friends and bland jobs that cant do much of anything outside of a narrow range of damage/healing that every job is capable of.

[Mawlzy]

In the beginning of the PvP re-work everyone complained about WHM and SAM limit break. Although there were some slight nerfs to WHM, overall, people improved and became aware of the easy gimps. Then came the complaints about SCH, DRG and SMN. As players got more experience they then learned how useful DRK and and AST were and now we are complaining about these jobs.

Could it be perhaps that not the majority of games you lose are because of 2-4 friends playing together and instead because players, overall, are becoming more experienced and aware of the best advantages and scenarios to press their buttons?

If they removed the ability to que with even a single friend, I feel like complaints would continue pouring in to nerf whatever job combination experienced players come up with. From the devs point of view, it seems like a lose-lose scenario where we end up with no ability to que with any friends and bland jobs that cant do much of anything outside of a narrow range of damage/healing that every job is capable of.

Great point about the evolution of the meta and the likelihood people will complain whatever is done. It also seems the whole premade issue is going round in circles, I'd suggest the following are the key points:

1. A 4-player premade, particularly on voice, confers an advantage on those in it. Sure, skilled players can minimize that edge, but to suggest it doesn't exist strikes me as disingenuous.

2. Assuming a single such premade is in a fight, this means that solo-queuing players have a less than 1/3rd chance of being in the team with the premade. Of the 68 remaining slots, 48 are in a non-premade team. Hence you have a 71% chance to be facing this premade, not 67%.

3. Over a significant sample size, and all other things (a good shot-caller, spawns) evening out, this inevitably lowers the win-rate of solo queueing players. Again, a skilled player can completely wipe out that margin, but for less-experienced players I'd suggest the disadvantage is actually amplified. This is partly because current balance issues mean a premade of a sensible composition is inevitably a noob-killer. The issue here is that, to grow FL, new players actually need to enjoy it, rather than feel they are simply fodder for what Salamander has called the "DRK blender."

4. Some people wish to queue with friends, thus addressing the problem by removing 4-player parties would remove the desired playstyle of part of the player base.

So the remaining question boils down to: should anything be done about this? And if removing party-queueing is too much of a blunt instrument, is there an alternative?

[Mayhemmer]

You said above, quoting: "The ultimate point isn't about premades; I did say they weren't the root issue. It's the fact that a healer can top the damage chart in the first place.".

I noticed the "among many things" on this one, but please understand that you keep jumping from one statement to a relatively contrary other statement just after, so that's a little confusing to say the least.

I've made the problems I see with FL pretty clear, but if you say so.

[kayll]

Huh, I don't know. Same team, stacked job, all sticking so close to each other the whole match they might as well be holding hands, diving together at once, retreating together at once, in-sync skill usage, all appearing together multiple matches in a row... I guess it's a mystery... /s

I can't believe these guys, playing together in team based mode in an MMO.
The nerve of some people.

[Mawlzy]

I can't believe these guys, playing together in team based mode in an MMO.
The nerve of some people.

It is indeed a "team-based mode" where the team consists of 24 players. It seems rather sad to me that people construct 4-person premades to inflate their personal stats. Just because the exploit is permissible doesn't stop it being an exploit.