Let's talk about the upcoming DRG rework...

[Shurrikhan]

To be fair, this is a triple edged sword.

A lot of people say about healers and even SMN that they like them how they are, too.

I do agree, though, with the premise that not all Jobs are for everyone. I just wish the people who like complex Jobs and say that to defend BLM, DRG, AST, etc would also realize that the reverse of that exists on the opposite end of the spectrum.

The differences between what is allowed to someone who wants to engage only with a smaller kit when given a larger kit (is almost never seen as griefing, since the optimizations already available even to a simpler job dwarf the differences between the use of those marginal tools) and what is allowed to someone who wants to engage with a larger kit when given only a smaller kit (literally impossible) are night and day, however.

To pretend otherwise is beyond disingenuous, as it replaces all concerns of balance and what little is actually expected of players in the relevant portions of content* with a matter of placating near-paranoia (that the GCD healer would suddenly be "found out", to heated or even disastrous result, if only they had those few more spells that were technically worth adding into the mix).

*(I.e., less than Ultimate / anything for which having a lower-risk option share a ceiling with others and therefore outperform others except when handled by the best of players would not wreck perceived job balance.)

[Renathras]

The differences between what is allowed to someone who wants to engage only with a smaller kit when given a larger kit (is almost never seen as griefing, since the optimizations already available even to a simpler job dwarf the differences between the use of those marginal tools) and what is allowed to someone who wants to engage with a larger kit when given only a smaller kit (literally impossible) are night and day, however.

This highly depends on what it is.

On SCH, if you never use Dissipation and seldom use Energy Drain, the difference is not so huge that you're grifing your party. On MNK, if you don't engage with the Nadi system at all (e.g. never use Masterful Blitz), you ARE kind of griefing the party and your output difference is significant enough to potentially make beating enrages difficult or impossible for your party.

Some distinctions are small enough that the outcome is effectively the same, even if not exactly the same. But others are big enough gulfs that they cease to be "optimal" in truth.

If one accepts that some Jobs like BLM, DRG, AST, etc should exist, then it stands to reason that one should accept the inverse as well.

To pretend otherwise is beyond disingenuous, as it replaces all concerns of balance and appeal to a general playerbase with a closed set of very limited options that is only appealing to a niche audience which cannot carry a game, and which will still choose to meta/min-max even from a more limited pool of options.

[Shurrikhan]

If one accepts that some Jobs like BLM, DRG, AST, etc should exist, then it stands to reason that one should accept the inverse as well.

I'm not particularly sure what you're implying connects all these things (the most recent mention was a non-negligible gimmick, but MNK's Nadi itself generates only the difference between a trio of blitzes as Lunar spam (less than 4% of damage), but will the jobs that are to have the "inverse" of whatever quality that is also have the "inverse" of that quality's commensurate output?

To pretend otherwise is beyond disingenuous, as it replaces all concerns of balance and appeal to a general playerbase with a closed set of very limited options that is only appealing to a niche audience which cannot carry a game, and which will still choose to meta/min-max even from a more limited pool of options.

Literally More Gameplay/Options: ...
Renathras: But to min-max, as I was never going to do anyways, I might have to use them, which reduces my options of what not to use!

[Calysto]

Not real excited about it (unless they add a pseudo-pet wyvern... I can dream <.< )

For the changes beside trimming the combos, one change I see coming is AoE changed to circles (will we get back circle of thorns ? or some new mini-jump animations ?)

[Shurrikhan]

Not real excited about it (unless they add a pseudo-pet wyvern... I can dream <.< )

For the changes beside trimming the combos, one change I see coming is AoE changed to circles (will we get back circle of thorns ? or some new mini-jump animations ?)

/shudder

Fat/wide linear AoEs already have by far the greatest affordances/functionality of any AoE type, and I have no desire to deal with this game's (lack of) pet management.

_____________

I'd happily just...

1. Allow players to select whether their conal and linear AoEs follow (A) to-target angle, (B) player facing angle, or (C) check the relevant target account from both player facing and target facing and use whichever hits a greater number of relevant enemies (i.e., excluding enemies that are invulnerable, would kill self or party members if struck, or are afflicted with CC that would break on hit).
   
2. Make Dragon Sight a Dancer Partner kind of thing that, during Lance Charge, allows you to beneficially share attack angle (if partner is standing at enemy's Rear when you use Chaos Thrust, you get the positional no matter where you're standing) and gives them 5% bonus crit chance. In exchange for Dragon Sight no longer buffing self, Lance Charge buffed to a 15% damage increase and the effect of Battle Litany is doubled on self. (Additional faint potency adjustments where appropriate.)
   
3. Have Life of the Dragon grant X casts of Nostrand as replacements to Geirskogul. E.g., once the third is cast, the button turns back to Geirskogul, even if still in Life of the Dragon. This thereby avoids the drift issues without requiring LotD to end early, which therefore would not conflict with whatever future passive benefits we might want to include in LotD.

LNC should be removed entirely.

I don't get this position. Call the class a "Job" and the jobs an "Advanced Job" if you like, but the tiered system is already a franchise norm. We don't aim from character-infancy to be specifically part of an Ishgardian elite lancer force capable of hunting down dragons. We aim to know wtf to do, at least, with this pointy stick, and follow the lead of those trained in effective use of said pointy sticks. Trying to specifically adopt the precepts of X elite and long-historied group can wait for our at least having learned of their existence.

They could literally just force us to go an unlock DRG to continue leveling LNC past 30 and automatically equip the job stone upon equipping a spear once we've acquired it. All the QoL of not having a LNC is possible even with a LNC. Having it just also allows for the character progression to make some damned sense while allowing players to be eased in, as we don't start the game with a third or more of the endgame kit; we start it with a single, basic stab.

Now, if you wanted to see skill acquisition massively accelerated (densest early-game, even if increasingly sparse in new buttons added the further along one gets), I'd be right there with you, but until we're basically thrust into a character story/progression that's already partly complete, starting from jobs ("Advanced Jobs" in any jobs-based single-player FF game) makes no damned sense.

[Ryskim]

I don't get this position. Call the class a "Job" and the jobs an "Advanced Job" if you like, but the tiered system is already a franchise norm. We don't aim from character-infancy to be specifically part of an Ishgardian elite lancer force capable of hunting down dragons. We aim to know wtf to do, at least, with this pointy stick, and follow the lead of those trained in effective use of said pointy sticks. Trying to specifically adopt the precepts of X elite and long-historied group can wait for our at least having learned of their existence.

They could literally just force us to go an unlock DRG to continue leveling LNC past 30 and automatically equip the job stone upon equipping a spear once we've acquired it. All the QoL of not having a LNC is possible even with a LNC. Having it just also allows for the character progression to make some damned sense while allowing players to be eased in, as we don't start the game with a third or more of the endgame kit; we start it with a single, basic stab.

Now, if you wanted to see skill acquisition massively accelerated (densest early-game, even if increasingly sparse in new buttons added the further along one gets), I'd be right there with you, but until we're basically thrust into a character story/progression that's already partly complete, starting from jobs ("Advanced Jobs" in any jobs-based single-player FF game) makes no damned sense.

This was a thing in FFXI and, like you said, "the norm".

FFXIV does not follow that path, sadly. But most importantly, Yoshida said on repeated occasions that he intends to remove all existing classes sooner or later and have only jobs. It it's not a matter of "if", but "when".

So CNJ, MRD, LNC, GLD, THM, ROG, ACN, etc... will all disappear. I just hope that at least some of them become a job on their own. Especially Rogue/Thief.

[Shurrikhan]

But most importantly, Yoshida said on repeated occasions

Then that's another for the growing list of bad decisions.

I said the position wouldn't make sense to me, as it has almost solely negatives, not that it wouldn't happen. Net negative changes aren't a new thing to this game.

[Rithy255]

Not real excited about it (unless they add a pseudo-pet wyvern... I can dream <.< )

For the changes beside trimming the combos, one change I see coming is AoE changed to circles (will we get back circle of thorns ? or some new mini-jump animations ?)

Trimming of combos? look forward to 1, 2, 3! Too much "bloat" so enjoy!

In reality All we can expect for DRG, Astro and any other new job is a real downgrade from what you have currently, Lets be honest when has any recent rework been positive? Like pretty much none the only one I can point to being PLD? that was like 30% good changes but 70% bad changes but the job overall feels really bland with the amount of times you're pressing atonement goring combo removed, wouldn't be surprised if they removed dragon sight and cards because people complain about targeted buffs.

At the end of the day Simple jobs are also popular, White mage, summoner, reaper and Warrior are all popular for a reason even when they're not "meta" Theirs no reason to make fun complicated jobs, because they don't appeal to a lot of people

[Shurrikhan]

Trimming of combos? look forward to 1, 2, 3! Too much "bloat" so enjoy!

Sarcasm noted, but if "bloat" really were a concern... I'd honestly just like to swap things out such that each button does more (greater total number of actions, despite fewer buttons).

Start with the combos. Rather than having 3 separate combo lines that can't intermix --thereby currently requiring 10 buttons for a single point of decision every 3 or 10 GCDs-- allow us to move through them in whatever order we like while moving up. Even Doom Spike -> Disembowel -> Heaven's Thrust would be permissible. Each gets just 1 button, called Thrust, Drive, or Surge. (Your opening 5 GCDs --TT, Db, CT, WT, F&C-- would just be Drive x4 + Thrust.)

Add a third Dragon skill to go after Coerthan. Dragon skills will still be locked in for the first used (CT always forces WT next, FT forces F&C next), but you can choose any other Dragon skill thereafter.

Drop the various Jumps and Dive buttons except for Jump itself and Evasive Leap. Instead, Jump uses MP to launch you into the air, greatly or wholly mitigating non-targeted and non-raid-wide damage, and replaces your next Thrust, Drive, or Surge GCD with an augmented Jump version. Thrust becomes Spineshatter Dive, Drive becomes Dragonfire Dive, and Surge becomes Divebomb. These cost varying further amounts of MP. You learn more of these replacements as you level up (SSD -> DFD -> DB), and those forms themselves increasingly become replaced under Life of the Dragon (Stardiver -> Dragonwroth -> Extinction).

Yes, that'd need an MP generation loop, ideally in such a way that lets one gamble between sustain and finishing off the encounter then and there, and a bit more besides to flesh out the additions, but this is just a quick mock-up.

10 buttons saved, 4 actions added, and GCD points of decision increased from 1 in 5 GCDs in single-target and 1 in 3 GCDs in AoE to 4 in 5 GCDs in both.

[Chulainn_Loveless]

I literally just created my forum account right now to tell you how much I love this idea. Imagine LotD modifying multiple skills--at that point, to fit it into the 2 minute meta and give dragoon an actual opener, I wouldn't even be upset if LotD was a buff trigger instead of a gauge. The main obstacle I see is how MP regeneration could be implemented--it would have to be enough to allow you to use your jumps between raid buffs as well, lest the normal jumps become unused. I'm also wondering how ogcds would fit into this; personally, if the class becomes less weaving dependent, I think it should have a skill speed buff. Maybe that could even be worked into a gauge of some sort that gets spent instead of MP, and could even be the "sustain vs finisher" element of skill expression. Something along the lines of spending the gauge on jumps can give you an attack speed penalty (in 2 or more stages) if you use more than 2 jumps.
(0) (0) (0) (0) = 1.8 gcd
( ) ( ) (0) (0) = 1.8 gcd
( ) ( ) ( ) (0) = 2.2 gcd
( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) = 2.5 gcd

It could give an interesting flow to the class, where you're still firing off jumps in rapid bursts. Let's say completing a 3 hit single target or aoe will give you one unit unless you modify one into a jump; refilling the gauge while only having used two jumps will let you refill it significantly quicker, so the opener might look something like this:
Jump(ogcd modifier ability) --> thrust, thrust, drive, surge (aligns you with raid buffs and refills the spent gauge)
Jump-->thrust (ssd), jump-->drive(dfd), jump-->surge(db)
We're at 1 gauge tick left now
<Imagine LotD is a trigger ability that enhances your jumps and restores 2 gauge ticks>
Stardiver, Dragonwroth, Extinction--ticks are spent and your burst phase is complete

Then you slowly build your attack speed back up and spend your two gauge ticks that you can keep without slowing you down again. It would sort of be like black mage's umbral and astral phases, only once you stay in your hard hitting phase for too long, it will take a little more time to pick up the pace again. I think it fits thematically, with jumps needing a lot more exertion than thrusting your spear. If there were a way to recharge these ticks before boss fights a la ninja's hide, then I think it would feel even better during dungeons. Call the damn skill "Dragon's milk."

Heck, they could even somewhat copy black mage and I'd be happy with it; switching from a jumping phase to a stabbing phase, and bring back phlebotomize which can be used in either phase (like Thunder) for your DOT.