FFXIV Job Design Feedback

[Oizen]

If anything giving a dps a move like that would let them skip a singular raidwide damage at most.
Almost every mechanic in recent memory has some sort of way of bypassing invulns if the mechanic is failed. It wouldn't be as impactful as it sounds, save for maybe some niche application in content like Deep Dungeons.

[Shurrikhan]

If anything giving a dps a move like that would let them skip a singular raidwide damage at most.
Almost every mechanic in recent memory has some sort of way of bypassing invulns if the mechanic is failed. It wouldn't be as impactful as it sounds, save for maybe some niche application in content like Deep Dungeons.

Let's say I give you the choice between (A) a 60s CD that shields for 25% of your HP and (B) a 3-minute CD that fully immunizes a single hit.

Which are you going to take in Deep Dungeons?
Which are you going to take in Savage, or other content that could actually be significantly cheesed by skipping that mechanic?

...I don't think the impact, if balanced to be anywhere of use to Deep Dungeon, would be particularly negligible unless you make it as shit as original Shake it Off (working on almost nothing, with no indicator as to whether something will work until you risk wasting it and likely wiping in the process if it would have actually made a tactical difference). Which would probably cause more annoyance that it's worth.

[Shurrikhan]

But I don't think that limit break system translates very well to PVE. I think PVE limit breaks needs a rework, and I'm not entirely sure how they should go about it, but I don't think the answer is PVP limit breaks.

I mean, I guess the first order of business is just to set down what the PvE LB does for gameplay, and perhaps what it's supposed to do and how it could better do that (if different from what it currently accomplishes).


At present, it's, what... a band-aid "fix" to removing too many tanks or healers if a fight would demand a tank LB3 within the first 7 minutes or so? I.e., it allows the devs to mask role issues via the occasional hard composition check. (The damaging LBs, though, are of increasingly little significance, as their throughput hasn't increased over levels at the rate that party DPS has, so without an actually required LB... the constraint is impotent.)

Apart from that, it just adds the gameplay of making sure you can stand in place for long enough for an LB3, a tiny bit of mechanical trimming (though this hasn't been especially noticeable or offered much choice in recent times), and redeeming near wipes (especially in more casual content where you wouldn't then just die to Enrage anyways), and who among the parse-party gets stuck with the rDPS penalty of using the LB.


Of those, probably the Healer LB3 is the only real notable advantage of having that system, since the pulls it can save aren't usually the ones we're worried about being too thereby cheesed to the point of losing the engagement they'd have otherwise (even in the Ultimate mechanics it's useful for, it seems to add to that engagement rather than undermine it), since tank LB requirements are largely just circuitous on-cue uses (though lower Tank LB optional uses can be decently interesting at times, if the timing of the mechanic to gauge generation lines up nicely enough).

Moreover, each could probably be just as interestingly produced from job-unique LBs (be they a party-shared resource or not, or even half-shared) with high maximum charge (and assuming they could use a fine/granular charge system instead of current LBs block system).

:: For instance, the maximum effect of the current Healer LB3 could as easily be some 6 minutes' worth of WHM Adrenaline/Limit Gauge saved up, while most DPS and tanks might generally have far shorter maximums. Etc., etc.

[ty_taurus]

I'm working on setting up the Media Tour Survey which I'll be able to share in a new thread soon. I'm in the process of trying to collect some early data that I can use to help build a hub for written answers, and once I have all that finished for the blogpost, I'll share it here, on reddit, and also try and reach out to some other communities of players to try and get a more varied selection of responses. But here's a sneak peak:

[ASkellington]

Are the jobs there supposed to be your "main" or are supposed to be options for what you play on the regular?

[ty_taurus]

Are the jobs there supposed to be your "main" or are supposed to be options for what you play on the regular?

The first question is "Do you currently consider yourself a [job] player" with a follow-up if you answer "no" that asks why you're interested in those jobs' changes: you used to play the job, you're interested in playing the job, you're interested in the balance of that job's role, you're interested in all job changes, or other.

So It doesn't have to be your main. The follow-up questions are about what out of several categories are you interested in seeing added or changed during the media tour, of those you chose, which is the one you are most interested in, how do you rate your job currently, an a 1000 character written response about any specific details you want to see.

[Sebazy]

Media Tour Wishlist.

Needs an option for 'The expansion to drop without 1 healer being hobbled by stupid oversights' or I riot

[ForsakenRoe]

Needs an option for 'The expansion to drop without 1 healer being hobbled by stupid oversights' or I riot

Best I can do is 'SCH feels wonky because the devs removed Energy Drain again', take it or leave it

[AnotherPerson]

I agree that DRG's invuln on jumping wouldn't be an 'unfair' mechanic in PVE. Is it possible DRG could cheese enrages on some level? Maybe, but as a fragile DPS with no access to raising, the amount of time it has after it lands to try and take advantage of a few extra seconds is highly limited, and even then situations where you even could try and cheese a few extra seconds are extremely rare anyway.

But I don't think that limit break system translates very well to PVE. I think PVE limit breaks needs a rework, and I'm not entirely sure how they should go about it, but I don't think the answer is PVP limit breaks. I know most people around the forums have no faith in Dawntrail being anything more than Shadowbringers 3.0, but as a new expansion, there's an opportunity to introduce more drastic changes to spice up the gameplay in some way. It's been done with gauges. Saying it cannot happen is silly; which isn't to say that it will happen either. It just shouldn't be discounted.

Enrages just kill the party regardless. You could just have enrage constantly spam to nullify any chance of specific invulnerability skills past a certain point. LB skills aren't particularly spammable in the sense that you could constantly use it every 5 seconds to dodge enrage. It wouldn't really make difference even if Phoenix Downs were made available in combat and DRG suddenly has access to raise.

The Limit Break system as it is won't translate well. The PvP LB gauge is called the adrenaline gauge, which substitutes the current Limit Break Gauge. However, we already have gauges that is literally meant for one action nowadays (SCH Fey Gauge for example). I don't think there's anything stopping SE from just adding another gauge into the jobs and let that be the personalized LB gauge while keeping the group LB gauge separate.

[Renathras]

PvP abilities: One thing with PvP is that they bundle a lot into single abilities, but this also means removing a lot of oGCDs and such, and covers over its slim pickings with short CDs allowing more frequent use (don't get me wrong, I think PvE DOES need more of that; a button you just press every 2 minutes like clockwork feels wrong to me and like it's pointless for them to even have in the game). For example, Seraph Strike on WHM is Icarus + Misery-lite (AOE stronger than Glare) + Protect + Thin Air + Cure 3 (a proc). Afflatus Purgation is Misery + Holy (stun) + Temperance + Medica 2. Aquaveil also has Esuna built in. Misery sorta has Solace/Rapture built in in the sense it doesn't require any Blood Lily, it just has a flat 20 sec CD. Cure 2 is Solace with 2 charges that doesn't interact with Misery at all (odd that it doesn't decrease its CD by 5 or 10 secs, when you think about it, especially considering AST does have an interaction like that with Doublecast...). But other than that, it just has stock Glare and a cutesy version of Repose that's instant cast but with a very short range and would be useless in boss fights.

While others have varying layers of complexity (WHM is still the most straightforward), you still end up with a similar overall situation of "combined abilities instead of separate button oGCDs; shorter CDs on everything".

So while I get people like the PvP abilities, there's more going on there. I'd say the biggest thing is that somewhat powerful abilities have very short (15-20 sec) CDs, and very powerful abilities (LBs aside) are still very frequently available. Even the LBs are. A 120 sec LB would still be something you use 3-5 times in a given Extreme/Savage fight and more akin to your 2 min bursts in current PvE in terms of frequency.

...but they also allow a lot of shenanigans, like the Tanks all having invulns and the PLD being able to give one to another person, DRG being invuln during jump, SGE's LB, etc.

Basically, I imagine if someone doesn't really know a lot about a job to really have any sort of expectations on what new changes it will see in the next expansion, they probably wouldn't fill out the poll for that job. But someone who's maybe interested in the general balance of their role, or who used to play a job but no longer does, may still have certain expectations they're looking for.

I could be wrong, but I'm not sure we can trust the honor system that far.

...not to mention the whole thing is an honor system exercise to begin with. XD Though maybe people will, but if that's what you want, you really need to specify it. Something like "Please only fill out for jobs that you play and are familiar with/know a lot about". I don't think people filling out a survey that lets them do all Jobs is going to naturally assume that in all cases.