A summary of healer issues

[Shurrikhan]

I want to have the elements back too. But I'd do it in a way where the holy light stuff we have now isn't completely removed. But then, we'd likely see people complaining about my plan because 'oh I prefer the holy lights but they're the weak filler part of the rotation, why can't the part I like be the cool strong bursty part' or such.

That much, at least, could be easily fixed by just having the elements be the set-up and the Holy/Light stuff be the less frequent burst.

My main concern, I guess, is just whether we even need one more "Hard Light" job? How many ways do we really need to express "Bright, thin, wall of force" or "shockwave/percussed zone of light"? It's no more diffuse than SGE's fatter lasers or SCH's Fey stuff.

Like, I'm fine with it, but I also don't see the appeal of including the HolyLight theme kit-wide in general except in that it offers more distinct of name changes on our generic potency upgrade traits (for a single step) than if we had stuck with elements alone. It's just kinda... there.

[AmiableApkallu]

Like, I'm fine with it, but I also don't see the appeal of including the HolyLight theme kit-wide in general except in that it offers more distinct of name changes on our generic potency upgrade traits (for a single step) than if we had stuck with elements alone. It's just kinda... there.

Getting Glare and Dia at Lv.72 post-Lv.71 MSQ makes some amount of sense, I think. By that same token, I'd expect elemental magic to return post-Lv.80/5.0 MSQ.

[Shurrikhan]

Getting Glare and Dia at Lv.72 post-Lv.71 MSQ makes some amount of sense, I think. By that same token, I'd expect elemental magic to return post-Lv.80/5.0 MSQ.

Just for the expansion-matching aesthetics? I guess that makes sense. I just don't really like how it then feels so shoehorned thereafter, like Seraph in post-ShB SCH.

If we're going to do the HolyLight theme, I suspect we should stick with it instead of it just being a 10-level one-off. I just feel like (A) there should be more consideration of future impacts before deciding whether to go for it and (B) if we're do something like a new visual theme, it shouldn't be introduced as an outright replacement for what came before, but rather as part of some new tool to slot in atop (and synergistically with) them. That then leaves a lot more freedom in how that theme is included both in ShB and in later expansions.

[ForsakenRoe]

I'd take something like having Stone as the standard attack, then using a non-lily GCD heal gives a buff that turns your next Stone into Glare (Banish on earlier levels?).

Then bring back AeroIII as an AoE DoT while keeping Dia the main DoT maybe?

Would also like Water somewhere too though

I had it the other way round: After using a specific new GCD heal tool (costs 50 of a new gauge), to make it damage neutral, your next Stone/Glare, Aero/Dia, and Water/Banish (new button, 15s CD) would upgrade for one cast each, into Quake, Tornado, Flood. Since BLM has Flare and Freeze, and Burst in PVP, I figure a way to give WHM those 'elemental capstones' would be well received. Because I'd have the gauge also build not only from single target damage, and from GCD non-Lily heals, but also from Holy at a rate that scales based on pack size (2 gauge per enemy for example), it'd allow for these cool looking moves to also spice up our AOE rotation, so that instead of pressing just Holy over and over, we have another 3 potential skills to work with

That much, at least, could be easily fixed by just having the elements be the set-up and the Holy/Light stuff be the less frequent burst.

While this is also possible (its the same idea just roles reversed), I feel like it's harder to make the holy/light thematics look more 'powerful', given they've gone with this airy 'graceful' kind of vibe for the spells we have already. Glare doesn't really have 'punch' like the earth spells did, it's more 'wispy'. Same with Dia vs Aero, and especially Aero3. Which is why I'd opt for the lightshow to be the 'standard rotation'. One of the main things about what I would want is, specifically, a way to give WHM Quake Tornado and Flood, so that it's on equal footing in terms of spell hierarchy as BLM, the job it's meant to have fought a prolonged war against. And I don't see how to do those spells justice without them being cool, flashy, but also not super accessible. We can't spam Flare, for example. We have to do 2 or 3 before going back to Ice Phase. But when we DO do those 3 Flares, it feels really good because of eg the screen shake, the heat blur, etc.

Just for the expansion-matching aesthetics? I guess that makes sense. I just don't really like how it then feels so shoehorned thereafter, like Seraph in post-ShB SCH.

That then leaves a lot more freedom in how that theme is included both in ShB and in later expansions.

Which is why Feo Ul should be a Seraph Glam option, thank you for coming to my TED talk /s

As for the other part, this is why I believe having the elements live on as a burst window, damage refund effect, whatever non-filler solution, makes sense. There's earth, wind and water on the First, right? So, even if they have been slightly umbral'd by the light, I'd argue that it stands to reason that we can still tap into their power. IDK what the logic in keeping us with Glare was after 5.0, if the reason we got it in 5.0 was lore related. Which I am pretty sure, it wasn't. I expect they did it just because they ran out of ranks to give Stone (we were at 4 in SB, so they were out of suffixes back then).

On the plus side, if that is true, either 7.0 will have the last Glare and we can have something else (since it'll have Glare 4), or they'll stop giving us filler spell upgrades and have to come up with something more unique to give us

[Shurrikhan]

While this is also possible (its the same idea just roles reversed), I feel like it's harder to make the holy/light thematics look more 'powerful', given they've gone with this airy 'graceful' kind of vibe for the spells we have already.

That seems like an issue of insufficient shockwaves. /shrug

Glare doesn't really have 'punch' like the earth spells did, it's more 'wispy'. Same with Dia vs Aero, and especially Aero3.

Oh, it is, for sure. I just don't think that's the limit of the aesthetic. And even then, you're going to run into some conflict. First, if the previous spam was Stone IV, for instance, and you replace it with just 'wispy' it's still going to sound like it should hit for less. More importantly, though, why the heck would Stone IV be a spammed animation. It looks like it should punt enemies skyward via sudden creation of earthen pillars capable of breaking line of sight! At which point, you're really comparing Glare to whatever seems like it should be the filler, if only to allow the cooler animations to have effects befitting their appearance.

Though, all this is tangential; I'd be fine with either take. I just feel like the HolyLight theme could play on some established thematic aspects that have been budding from the start, especially if used as a sort of upgraded state that's temporarily unlocked via buffs.

[Recon1o6]

snip

With stone at least, I think we had too big of a gap between stone 2 and stone 3. We went from small ground spike to massive floating stellation of rock. Stone 4, though visually less impressive had the sound effect of that gorgeous crunch which made it feel more powerful.
So its not just visually, its sfx and as you say camera shake.

This is why glare 1 and glare 3 feel like glare 1 and glare 1.5, they are just too visually piddly, their sound is dainty and there's no tertiary attributes to make them feel stronger than rock pillar go crunch
Holy is an example of a strong light spell. I'm not just talking about the flashbang here, but the rest of it. It has an audible and visually notable charge up. Its a spell so strong it charges up after its cast. Then there's the sound when it blasts. At least for holy. Idk about holy 3 because I haven't touched whm since I quit none blu healing and I play with party fx limited.

I know why GCD healing is bad. What I want to know is why the people who don't care about chasing numbers on the funny number website feel bad for pressing their GCD heals. If you're not chasing numbers, why would you be upset at losing numbers? That's what I don't get.

As I just said. It means you've messed up your healing (abilities) and you're playing rubbish. Or your party is that bad. That's nothing to do with parse, that's "I've been wasting my good healing, now I got to use my crap stuff".
I'm a good healer, I should be dismissing the dps' booboos with a emet selch wave of my hand between my glare/malefic/broil/dosis, that feels good. Im such a good healer I don't need to cast to heal. If I wanted to cast a heal, then I have to take a big chunk of my mana out and that sucks because I can't rez the idiotic dps when they all ignored me and got cleaved to death.
My mana is valuable. I use that to give myself carpal tunnel or to pick up the poor bastard who got clipped by the tankbuster.

[ForsakenRoe]

sorry if this is a doublepost, I'm sure we can appreciate why

Though, all this is tangential; I'd be fine with either take. I just feel like the HolyLight theme could play on some established thematic aspects that have been budding from the start, especially if used as a sort of upgraded state that's temporarily unlocked via buffs.

Yes, there's ways to make light look cooler. Like, Chrono Trigger's got Luminaire and that is very visually spectacular, as an example. I get the feeling that swapping from 'light is the spammable' back to 'elements are the spammable, light is now the empowered version' would be more jarring than to just add elemental finishers at earlier levels that don't upgrade to light, and have light remain as the spams, so we level up from elements/big elements, to light/big elements.

As I put in another thread in general, the animations would be suitably flashy, specifically because they're so gated behind time/resource. Stone4 was a bit over the top in VFX compared to how often it's spammable, but I figured it was to mirror the VFX of things like Blizzard4 and Fire4 on it's foil, BLM. But I'll relink my thinking for the animations here since it's a more suitable location for them:

I've been thinking about what animations the player would do for a theoretical Quake, Tornado and Flood to make them 'feel powerful', and what would get people excited if they saw them in a job action trailer. So far my thinking is something like:

Quake: Raise left hand to sky during cast time, earth energy/aether swirling around fist. Upon cast completion, jump, punch floor, rocks/faultlines shoot out toward enemy, giant spikes of earth erupt from the ground and then explode into fragments. An example of what I'm imagining is the first attack of everyone's favorite fictional member of the US political system, Senator Armstrong. The big final 'spike' at the end can reuse the Dominion spikes in P8S, though I wouldn't object to a 'Blade of Valor' style one where many small ones appear first, then one massive one

Tornado: There's plenty of wind attack animations to reuse throughout the game, pick any that look like they are powerful enough to be worthy of the mantle of 'the most powerful of Wind Magicks'. Or recolor Tail Screw, or Charybdis. For player animation, just reuse Aero 3 (the cane spin), since Aero 3 was also a wind attack it stands to reason

Flood: Hand outstretched as if offering something to another, with water aether in palm. Massive sphere of water lands on enemy. Draw hand towards chest, crushing water aether in hand. At the same time as the 'crush', the big water droplet on the enemy condenses in under the pressure, then explodes violently in several directions because the pressure within got so high. Example of the player's movement would be, again an MGR reference, when you 'absorb electrolytes' (specifically the version at the timestamp, not the midair variants etc)

I reckon if those were shown in a job action trailer people'd be losing their mind like it's a Super Smash Bros character reveal. Well, some people at least

Im such a good healer I don't need to cast to heal.

This is an interesting aspect to consider. If we saw two SGEs in a trailer, one who's working overtime to heal people, and one who's using their nouliths in multiple ways, eg one is shooting enemies, one is drawing shields on someone as they charge in, and two are helping heal people in the back who are injured, multitasking all four at the same time... Which of the two SGEs is the 'better healer'? I'd argue it's the one that is keeping up with the healing, while also going on the offensive to prevent any more healing from being needed. Alternatively, healer 1 is focused on healing allies in a battle, healer 2 walks through the battlefield, healing allies as they pass automatically (the nouliths do it for them) but they don't stop walking, or look down or anything, they just keep walking. Healer 2 would probably 'look cooler' in a trailer setting, because they're clearly a very capable healer if they don't even need to focus on the task of healing, yet are able to perform it regardless. Imagine the WOL's a SGE in a trailer, and no matter how many attacks are thrown by how many enemies, the nouliths keep drawing shields, sniping at straggling enemies on the sides etc, and the WOL isn't even fazed by the attacks, nothing makes him flinch or slow down or anything. Everyone watching would be like 'wow he's so cool'