I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Renathras]

Your example doesn't really match though. You're talking about a playstyle: melee vs magic. Not wanting actions is not a playstyle. If someone does not want to have more than 5 or 6 actions in PVE, that's not something that should be supported, because that's now how this game is structured.

No, I'm talking about the type of actions.

Right now, all four healers have basically an identical playstle of dot, spamable nuke filler, 1-3 other Job gimmick damage actions, lots of oGCDs that the bulk of healing is through, and some backup GCDs used mostly in low level content before you get the oGCDs. They're different, but very similar at the same time. And there's complete opposition to making them distinct if that doesn't involve making them all equally more dps focused and complex. All the healers use more than 5 or 6 actions in PvE (oGCDs count).

I agree that we should have less oGCD/GCD overlap. I disagree that every healer Job should be made to appeal to one type of player (which is bad design) or to everyone (which is impossible). This was more a reaction to other comments, though, it just bleeds over here.

I agree all the actions should be useful - I don't like a lot of the PvP kits, but one thing they have going for them is nothing feels useless other than the filler nukes...those feel pretty useless most of the time. Unless someone's AFK, you'll never get a kill with your filler nuke, and other than SGE, which HAS to use it for healing, it doesn't really do anything useful. Like WHM I'd get WAY more use out of a filler Cure 1 than a filler Glare, but that's neither here nor there. The point, though, is that they are very slimmed down kits with very few buttons, forcing the buttons they have to all be pretty useful. There's not a lot of overlap or redundancy, but the gametype also has a very different pace. For example, imagine PvE with 20 second Deployment Tactics. Instead of having lots of buttons, they make the buttons pull more double duty because of it.

We could do that. Slash half the kits out and make abilities double up a lot more. I'm not sure if that would be well received or not, since whenever people suggest it in the healer forum, they tend to get...disagreement.

[ty_taurus]

We could do that. Slash half the kits out and make abilities double up a lot more. I'm not sure if that would be well received or not, since whenever people suggest it in the healer forum, they tend to get...disagreement.

And this is where my ugly shows, because if it were me behind the wheel, I'd rip the bandage and do it anyway. I would just make it my goal to try and make the gameplay that I replace all that bloat with more enjoyable than the negative of losing cooldowns and OGCD healing. And this also includes reworking AST to be the healer designed for healers that don't want to DPS. A while back you asked me if I'd do that regardless of the couple AST players who responded not liking that suggestion, and my response would be "tough. We need this to end this eternal feud, and AST is the healer that makes the most sense to do it with." Now it wouldn't just be the theory crafts I've regurgitated in the past, but something that would be worked on and refined with the help of the other designers, as well as playtested, but I would redefine AST regardless of what any existing AST player wants, because that's the only way I see this war ending before healer number 5 comes along in 2030.

[Renathras]

And this is where my ugly shows, because if it were me behind the wheel, I'd rip the bandage and do it anyway. I would just make it my goal to try and make the gameplay that I replace all that bloat with more enjoyable than the negative of losing cooldowns and OGCD healing. And this also includes reworking AST to be the healer designed for healers that don't want to DPS. A while back you asked me if I'd do that regardless of the couple AST players who responded not liking that suggestion, and my response would be "tough. We need this to end this eternal feud, and AST is the healer that makes the most sense to do it with." Now it wouldn't just be the theory crafts I've regurgitated in the past, but something that would be worked on and refined with the help of the other designers, as well as playtested, but I would redefine AST regardless of what any existing AST player wants, because that's the only way I see this war ending before healer number 5 comes along in 2030.

I feel weird.

I've never simultaneously disagreed AND agreed with a post as much as I simultaneously disagree AND agree with this one, lol

Not sure how to say that, but it's a funny feeling of "This part is completely wrong" and "But THIS part I couldn't agree with more".

[Kacho_Nacho]

I feel weird.

I've never simultaneously disagreed AND agreed with a post as much as I simultaneously disagree AND agree with this one, lol

Not sure how to say that, but it's a funny feeling of "This part is completely wrong" and "But THIS part I couldn't agree with more".

You're not the only one.

[ty_taurus]

You're not the only one.

About what I said?

[Kacho_Nacho]

About what I said?

Yes. But, it really needed to be said. It's the sort of radical idea I would not expect to occur to Square Enix.

[Renathras]

About what I said?

For my part, I'm far more accommodating. I want there to be something for everyone, rather than just making everyone angry with the hope/faith that they'll all end up enjoying it more somehow. Sometimes, it is very true that people would like an endpoint but not the process to get to that end point (e.g. dieting and working out to get in shape; people would like the endpoint of feeling better and looking better, but the intermediate stage of being achy and grumpy all the time until their body and mind adjusts is decidedly an unpleasant hurdle which makes the current state of being lazy and stuffing one's face with potato chips on the couch seem preferable. In chemistry, it's like how some reactions need a catalyst since the final state is more energy stable [and thus preferable], but the initial energy that must be expended before the reaction takes place to release a net amount [nature prefers ending in a lower energy state, hence boulders rolling down hills] means that it won't happen spontaneously without some initial energy input.)

So in a way, just saying "tough, we're going to do it" might be necessary and could end in a better state...

...but the trouble is that upending all the healers and completely disregarding what current enjoyers of the Jobs do enjoy about them is a certainty (that is, it WILL upset people) while the outcome isn't certain (you're banking on all healers that don't enjoy DPS liking your final state of AST and people that currently enjoy AST either liking that or, if they don't, liking one of the other healers to swap to them), which is a gamble. It could pay off, or it could end even worse than today.

So you're right, if your end result is right, but completely wrong if not, and in either case, would be harming a lot of people in the process; but, if it WAS something that was decided as the correct course of action (the endpoint), then that WOULD be the most effective way to get there and "rip the band-aid off" potentially less overall painful.

.

So I both highly disagree with it and agree with it at the same time.

...I'd also note the "4 Healers Model" would also "end the eternal feud", but for the people that aren't content unless they get literally everything they want.

[Kacho_Nacho]

For my part, I'm far more accommodating. I want there to be something for everyone, rather than just making everyone angry with the hope/faith that they'll all end up enjoying it more somehow. Sometimes, it is very true that people would like an endpoint but not the process to get to that end point (e.g. dieting and working out to get in shape; people would like the endpoint of feeling better and looking better, but the intermediate stage of being achy and grumpy all the time until their body and mind adjusts is decidedly an unpleasant hurdle which makes the current state of being lazy and stuffing one's face with potato chips on the couch seem preferable. In chemistry, it's like how some reactions need a catalyst since the final state is more energy stable [and thus preferable], but the initial energy that must be expended before the reaction takes place to release a net amount [nature prefers ending in a lower energy state, hence boulders rolling down hills] means that it won't happen spontaneously without some initial energy input.)

So in a way, just saying "tough, we're going to do it" might be necessary and could end in a better state...

...but the trouble is that upending all the healers and completely disregarding what current enjoyers of the Jobs do enjoy about them is a certainty (that is, it WILL upset people) while the outcome isn't certain (you're banking on all healers that don't enjoy DPS liking your final state of AST and people that currently enjoy AST either liking that or, if they don't, liking one of the other healers to swap to them), which is a gamble. It could pay off, or it could end even worse than today.

So you're right, if your end result is right, but completely wrong if not, and in either case, would be harming a lot of people in the process; but, if it WAS something that was decided as the correct course of action (the endpoint), then that WOULD be the most effective way to get there and "rip the band-aid off" potentially less overall painful.

.

So I both highly disagree with it and agree with it at the same time.

...I'd also note the "4 Healers Model" would also "end the eternal feud", but for the people that aren't content unless they get literally everything they want.

Square Enix has been fiddling with healers every expansion, making them more homogenesis, and destroying job identities. In addition, the skill floor for healers has been set too low. Veteran healers are bored.

There's a saying. "You can't polish shite." In other words, sometimes you mess up on a project, and no matter what you do, the end result is crap. So, it's better to pitch the whole thing and start anew.

As I said earlier, I don't expect this to occur to Square Enix. At least, not with regards to healers.

If they did rip the bandage off, a lot of players would be upset, and there would be a huge uproar about it. I might even be upset about it myself.

BUT, if the end result will be much improved healing jobs and a more engaging game, then it'll be better to do it all at once; rather than keep polishing the lump of manure.

[Shurrikhan]

And this is where my ugly shows, because if it were me behind the wheel, I'd rip the bandage and do it anyway. I would just make it my goal to try and make the gameplay that I replace all that bloat with more enjoyable than the negative of losing cooldowns and OGCD healing. And this also includes reworking AST to be the healer designed for healers that don't want to DPS. A while back you asked me if I'd do that regardless of the couple AST players who responded not liking that suggestion, and my response would be "tough. We need this to end this eternal feud, and AST is the healer that makes the most sense to do it with." Now it wouldn't just be the theory crafts I've regurgitated in the past, but something that would be worked on and refined with the help of the other designers, as well as playtested, but I would redefine AST regardless of what any existing AST player wants, because that's the only way I see this war ending before healer number 5 comes along in 2030.

I feel like I agree with much of this, though perhaps just incidentally? I'd definitely have an authoritarian streak when it comes to de-cluttering healer oGCDs. If someone cried out "But I love my Panhaima button. I don't care whether I'm still capable of a near identical action without using up that button on it separately!" I'd still take their button without even offering a pacifier.

Long CDs with highly specific use cases (basically hit Button X only when you see Cue X; if no Cue X, Button X mostly goes to waste) are just an utter waste to me. (Much like inflexible 123 combos, Cleric Stance existing just to grey out one half one's kit or the other, most actions --like Lucid Dreaming-- that exist solely to be hit on CD, purposely sabotaged macro systems, etc.)



In the case of AST, it's the job I think least needs a bunch of damage actions only because to me damage is just downtime/additional complexity, and Cards are already a huge factor there, so I'd like for what damage options AST has to synergize well with them as sort of big, pivotal, and set-up (kind of like a revised no-CD, more flexible, and more involved Earthly Star).

But, I wouldn't tell them "No additional downtime tools for you because internal-rotation-phobes might get offended at there being an option they don't want to use, even if they literally have no need to do so." It's simply that there are some things that fit better than others with its core (Cards and Time-Space Magic), so I'd want their kit to account for and build around what's core to that job.

[AmiableApkallu]

Long CDs with highly specific use cases (basically hit Button X only when you see Cue X; if no Cue X, Button X mostly goes to waste) are just an utter waste to me. (Much like inflexible 123 combos, Cleric Stance existing just to grey out one half one's kit or the other, most actions --like Lucid Dreaming-- that exist solely to be hit on CD, purposely sabotaged macro systems, etc.)

My absolute favorite: P11N (yes, normal) on WHM. Hit Lilybell when you see the first Styx start to be cast. Mechanic solved. Naturally, as this mechanic is tailored to make Lilybell feel needed, the next cast of Styx starts 165 seconds after the start of the first.

(On paper, if you want to Lilybell both, you have to plunk the first one down ~10 seconds before the start of the first cast.)