I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Renathras]

Please just stop. What you propose has debunked 10000000 times ever since ARR (and even though there were more sources of damage back then). With its gcd and encounter design this game is NOT made for -reactive- heal bots. Stop with this bs that seemingly only comes from clueless people.

I don't think "debunked" is the correct word here.

But still, we (well, I) do exist! Just hiding in dark corners dreaming of things that will never be. I do agree that buffing is a very good compromise way, since it allows for a healer to contribute in more varied ways than just directly dealing damage to the enemy

Honestly, I feel the same way. I prefer more healing, but I like buffing, too. The problem is it has to be buffing...well, works as a "rotation". For example, I hate AST right now (despite it being the most buffy of the healers) because it's oGCD power weaves you try to unload all in the 2 min burst windows as oGCD weaves between Malific casts. If they were GCDs and you were casting them all the time (like imagine some parallel universe where AST Draw and Play were GCDs but Draw had no CD so you could literally just keep rotating cards on party members to keep full buff uptime in between healing), that would be kind of fun.

So it's not just "does buffs" but how, and in this game, that means GCDs.

EDIT:

You hate skill and hate high APM jobs. That's really all I'm seeing.

That's because you're blind, can't pass up any of my posts without a snarky and insulting reply, and don't read.
And no, I'm not wasting one of my daily posts on you to say that. Unlike you, I don't run a dozen alts so I can get around the post limit.

EDIT2:

I do agree that giving healers oGCD buffs wouldn’t solve the issue, because as you say it would simply become ‘thing you use between dps casts’ as opposed to being a meaningful support option.

The thing is, we’ve actually had quite a few GCD buff spells in the past, the developers just will not stop removing them. Take Bard. They had Foe Requiem which was a standard cast, drained MP, increased damage taken by enemies (ok that’s a debuff but still lol), Mage’s Ballad and Army’s Paeon worked the same and gave a buff that gradually restored MP / TP. Warden’s Paean was initially a GCD spell (though weirdly no Mp cost), so Bards could actively remove status ailments or choose to proactively cast it on a party member (though it was kinda busted in PvP lol). There’s even more the further back you go. In the game’s alpha Archer has a ton of debilitating status effects attached to its weaponskills, Rain of Death even used to lower damage dealt to the enemy. Naturally these are all abilities for a different role, but at the same time they’re proof that ffxiv can have gcd based support abilities that actually affect a job’s playstyle and don’t fall into the trap of ‘just slap it between your dps spells’.

And yes, there is of course the trumpet in the room that all those support abilities had to get removed because it was like, disgustingly, game-breaking(ly), unstoppably over-powered in raids. But still, I feel like they could’ve worked to simply balance them more appropriately than just throw the entire concept out the window

I think spells like Bravery and Protect from Bozja should go into role skills for healers too. GCD support spells that can easily be utilised for optimal output, ignored completely, or used casually as and when required.

Yeah, pretty much agree with all this.

Worst part is, they do it with our healing, too.

Stoneskin? Nah fam, Divine Benison. /facepalm
Cure 2? Nah fam, Tetragrammaton (okay, Solace, but...just for WHM, the other healer Jobs all do it with oGCDs).

I'd much rather "Proshell" as a 10/20 sec buff that has to be cast vs Temperance being an oGCD weave that does the same thing with no effort.

EDIT...3?:

I'm not wrong, you said you want every healer to cast everything on the GCD basically, which means, yes, the job becomes slower, there's much lower APM, and there are no more complicated burst windows, yes that quite literally means you don't like jobs requiring high skill, what I'm hearing is you want it to be like SMN, everything is on the GCD

Source?

You're still wrong - I've never said I want every healer to cast everything on the GCD, "basically" or otherwise. I've said I think the majority of healing should be on the GCD to force people to break "X-spam" up and make healing actually require thought. Even there, I think there should be oGCD heals, I just think they shouldn't be one-button-solutions to all problems and should generally be for patch up, for emergencies (Benediction), or used in tandem with GCD heals (Plenary Indulgence, etc)

I don't think there should be DAMAGE DEALER burst windows on healers, because they're HEALERS, but even there I make exception. The entire 4 Healers Model I push all the time, in fact, would require at least one healer Job to have one, and possibly as many as three.

Also, SMN doesn't have everything on the GCD. Energy Drain, Fester, Searing Light, Enkindle, and Astral Flow, of which you get 1 for each Demi, 4 for Titan, 2 for Ifrit, and 1 for Garuda (making 9 per 60 seconds) are all oGCDs.

I'm not sure how you could be more wrong if you tried with that post, Titan.

[FenyxRising]

I hate AST right now (despite it being the most buffy of the healers) because it's oGCD power weaves you try to unload all in the 2 min burst windows as oGCD weaves between Malific casts. If they were GCDs and you were casting them all the time (like imagine some parallel universe where AST Draw and Play were GCDs but Draw had no CD so you could literally just keep rotating cards on party members to keep full buff uptime in between healing), that would be kind of fun.

You hate skill and hate high APM jobs. That's really all I'm seeing.

That's because you're blind, can't pass up any of my posts without a snarky and insulting reply, and don't read.
And no, I'm not wasting one of my daily posts on you to say that. Unlike you, I don't run a dozen alts so I can get around the post limit.

I'm not wrong, you said you want every healer to cast everything on the GCD basically, which means, yes, the job becomes slower, there's much lower APM, and there are no more complicated burst windows, yes that quite literally means you don't like jobs requiring high skill, what I'm hearing is you want it to be like SMN, everything is on the GCD

[Connor]

snip

I do agree that giving healers oGCD buffs wouldn’t solve the issue, because as you say it would simply become ‘thing you use between dps casts’ as opposed to being a meaningful support option.

The thing is, we’ve actually had quite a few GCD buff spells in the past, the developers just will not stop removing them. Take Bard. They had Foe Requiem which was a standard cast, drained MP, increased damage taken by enemies (ok that’s a debuff but still lol), Mage’s Ballad and Army’s Paeon worked the same and gave a buff that gradually restored MP / TP. Warden’s Paean was initially a GCD spell (though weirdly no Mp cost), so Bards could actively remove status ailments or choose to proactively cast it on a party member (though it was kinda busted in PvP lol). There’s even more the further back you go. In the game’s alpha Archer has a ton of debilitating status effects attached to its weaponskills, Rain of Death even used to lower damage dealt to the enemy. Naturally these are all abilities for a different role, but at the same time they’re proof that ffxiv can have gcd based support abilities that actually affect a job’s playstyle and don’t fall into the trap of ‘just slap it between your dps spells’.

And yes, there is of course the trumpet in the room that all those support abilities had to get removed because it was like, disgustingly, game-breaking(ly), unstoppably over-powered in raids. But still, I feel like they could’ve worked to simply balance them more appropriately than just throw the entire concept out the window

I think spells like Bravery and Protect from Bozja should go into role skills for healers too. GCD support spells that can easily be utilised for optimal output, ignored completely, or used casually as and when required.

[TheOperator3712]

I'm honestly not sure even 90% hp every 15 seconds is enough for a pair of competent healers with our current kit. E12S door boss wasn't that far off that mark and could be spreadsheeted down to pretty unthinkable levels.

Our kits need to be rethought and pruned in tandem with changes if we're going to see a return to Coil/Gordias levels of healing pressure.

Oh, I was thinking in dungeons. Although, the soft enrage mechanics in O12S and E12S both have similar healing requirements to 90% every 15 seconds; perhaps a tad faster. And both of them could wipe out a healing team's resources pretty fast.

That's beside the point though, as it is completely unrealistic to expect new healers to be able to keep up with that level of healing in casual content. Which was really my point.

[WaxSw]

If they made healing requirement harder --> it would clense out the dps-healers
and we would actually get ppl decent/good at the role in our duties. ^o^

Cleanse lol, as if healers who know how to play were a plague.
Hate to break it for you but spamming cure 1 and medica 2 is not knowing how to heal, good healing is all about efficiency not mindless bulk of useless hps

[SaberMaxwell]

If they made healing requirement harder --> it would clense out the dps-healers
and we would actually get ppl decent/good at the role in our duties. ^o^

Actually if they increased healing requirement, low skill healers would be booted from the role entirely. In this high healing requirement hypothetical, what happens in a boss if a dps is bad? Boss dies slower. If a tank is bad? Boss dies slower and healing requirement is higher. If the healer is bad? Wipe until the healer improves.

This is the primary concession that healer DPS provided--in lieu of a skill floor that would wall the party if not met, healers could express skill and reach a ceiling that primarily affected them and could be achieved through careful resource management.

J Allan Brack is a man I don't know beyond this quote but it does so often apply: "You think you want it, but you don't."

[ForsakenRoe]

Sorry in advance this is a long post, but if I put it in HB tags the person who needs to read it might just skip it and then claim I've not answered their questions

As I've told you before - you just like to ignore things I've said to you that answer your question so you can act like it hasn't been answered as some kind of damning mic drop moment - actual changes would require a complete readjustment to the kits. Potency balancing and oGCD timer adjustments. So it wouldn't be "with our current kits".

You aren't "Still waiting on this one" because I've answered you on this before, probably multiple times. I've never dodged it and I DID give you exact numbers before.

So you aren't "Waiting for an answer to a simple question", since you got answers, you just handwaved them away or ignored them.

I'm not looking for any mic drop moments, I'm just curious what you think would be an acceptable amount of damage from an EX roulette dungeon boss would be, such that it would be entertaining for all players, of various skill levels. If you think this:

Given that, changes aren't being made to "dungeon bosses" to keep you entertained, since nothing will. So we aren't talking about dungeons. We're talking about Savage bosses and Extreme bosses.

...That anyone who does Extreme/Savage/Ultimate should just... not be considered for 'dungeon boss' balance changes, that 'how to make the content more fun for a player of a higher skill level' is not something to bother with looking into, such that the dungeons remain piss-easy to those higher-skill players and are nothing more than a chore to get through to cap tomes (rather than content that is fun in it's own right), then it's not a 'solution' at all. It's a half-arsed deflection to let SE pretend they've 'made changes see we're listening guys!' but it would solve little to nothing about the issues being raised

What level of DPS rotation WOULD IT TAKE to keep you entertained in current Extremes? The answer was crickets. Because I suspect we all know it would need to be something like BLM otherwise you're going to still end up bored. More DPS buttons masks the problem, it doesn't fix it. At the end of the day, you won't be entertained/not bored in Extremes unless you have something comparable to a DPSers rotation because there just aren't going to be enough mechanics for your SMN-lite rotation to be entertaining. 1-2 more DPS buttons, or even 3-5 likely won't help. Can you REALLY tell me that applying Dia every 12 seconds is going to make you not bored anymore? Especially when your AOE rotation will ignore it anyway in favor of Holyspam?

I've answered this, multiple times: the rotation I suggested would be one I'd be satisfied with. The ones you've suggested, I'd have reservations about how long the 'this is enough' would last, but I'd try it. And here's the receipts for you to not read (again) because they're in a HB tag:

We don't need much, just a couple of small, focused changes is enough to spice things up. For example, for the damage side of things, all I would ask for WHM is to reduce Dia's duration to 12s (because 30s feels stupid), and to add a new Water/Banish GCD with a 15s CD. That's all. That's not going to suddenly make WHM gigabrain to play, you could even make a macro to auto-use Banish if it's ready and Glare if it isn't, if you wanted.

The question was "how in-depth would a healer rotation in Lapis Manilis have to be for you not to be bored?", and this meaning "running it for ~8-9 months".

And I answered. You might not like the answer, but it was given. I think that the changes to WHM that I have posted, almost a year ago now, would be enough to keep healing EX roulettes interesting to me, and also be casual-friendly enough that SE might actually implement them if anyone actually sent a copy across the design team's desks. Not much chance of that happening though.

I said I'd be agreeable to your WHM, and your SCH. Why am I getting flak for being 'opposed to your ideas' when I've literally said 'yeh this sounds alright'. For example, here for SCH, and here for WHM.

Yes, I remember your WHM proposal, and agreeing that it'd be pretty acceptable.

Reducing Dia to 12s doesn't sound like much of a change, but you can go to Bozja and try it yourself (so you can have Lost Banish in place of actual Banish). As for 'ignore Dia in AOE rotation', yeh, that's why after using the damage neutral heal, Dia would become a gain as Tornado, even in AOE. So your GCD AOE kit (vs a pull of 7 mobs) could potentially be (27 GCDs listed, so just over 1min of gameplay, or less than 1min if you actually use POM on trash instead of saving it for next expansion the boss):

-Holy (+14 gauge per cast) x 11 (gives a total of 154 gauge)
-Blessing of the Elementals (-50 gauge per cast) x 3 (total cost of 150 gauge)
-Quake x 3
-Tornado x 3
-Flood x 3
-Solace/Misery x 3
-Misery x 1

...Or you can just stick to Holy as you do now, because it's a dungeon and nobody gives a damn if you fully optimize the heck out of the Haam RainbowGolems in Aetherfont. It's not like I bother to do the 'force prep Misery to use on AOE pull' thing in dungeons because it doesn't matter. Even though, unlike singletarget where it's a gain in raidbuffs, it's an outright gain in AOE, buffs or not. But the point is, you'd still be able to use the Dia DOT in AOE, because I thought it'd be a cool idea to have the DOT have an AOE component when it's empowered, such that you can tear packs of mobs to shreds with it, without the whole 'tab target, apply DOT, tab target, apply DOT' thing. If you didn't want to use that extra button in AOE (should said design be the one in the game) then you could just keep pressing Holy and not care.

So yeh, again for the umpteenth time, the 'damage rotation I'd be satisfied with' is what I suggested. Seems a bit silly to suggest a change that I wouldn't be happy with, doesn't it? Of course, you're free to ignore that and claim that 'Roe keeps dodging and never answers the question of 'what complexity would it take to satisfy?' because clearly the answer is that if it's not BLM hard then it won't be enough for them!'

And for the raidwide frequency/intensity question, I'll add some numbers: Current AST can heal, completely for free via it's 60s OGCDs, 20k raidwide damage each 20s, by just cycling which tool it uses like you would with WHM Lilies. I wasn't even in BIS, I put my old prog crafted set back on for this one. It also doesn't factor in Macrocosmos or Lady of Crowns. A casual player can handle this with just 100% Medica2 uptime (in fact, it'd be around 300p worth of overheal each time, as you'd only need 700p ish to equal the damage). But if you wanted to make GCDs 'required', you'd have to put out damage enough to not only match the HPS output from these tools, but vastly exceed them. Like, 20k every 10 seconds would be closer to what you'd need. And I don't know if every casual player can 'grow to meet higher HPS requirements' like you've said previously, if that's the number they're having to try and meet.

You're right that a change like this would take 'a complete readjustment to the kits'. The problem is, I don't know if you're fully grasping the sheer size of the 'readjustment' required. To get us using enough healing GCDs to satisfy your desire to have us 'feel like healers', without ramping the damage on raidwides (as that would be casual player-exclusionary), would require that all the 60s CDs on AST become like... 180s. Or 120s, with halved potencies. Essential Dignity to a 90s CD. Benison recharge time to 60s. Asylum potency halved or something (450p total instead of 900). That wouldn't just 'make us rely on GCDs more', it'd feel awful in practice. And I'm not just saying that because 'opinion', you can see how people felt about the potencies of AST in 5.0, on launch, when it's OGCDs were super weak. The fact that SE fixed them so fast shows that the 'make the OGCDs weaker/less accessible' 'solution' is not the one to go for.

And that's not even considering that if your OGCD potencies/CD are less accessible, then you're spending more MP thanks to the extra reliance on GCD healing. So now you've got 6.0 WHM style MP issues. So then, do you want to 'fix' the 'fix' by changing MP costs or Lucid's potency to rectify the problem you've created, of running dry on MP? Or would you want to leave the higher costs as a 'feature' of the gameplay, thereby raising 'complexity' of all of the healers (and thereby messing up your '4 healers' thingy)? It's easy to say 'here's how to fix the problem' but it's a butterfly effect of extra knock-on issues that get raised that also have to be factored in and removed or minimized, and no matter how it gets sliced, I can't see how 'more healing needed' results in an overall smaller devtime cost than 'add more damage buttons'

[Zeastria]

Cleanse lol, as if healers who know how to play were a plague.
Hate to break it for you but spamming cure 1 and medica 2 is not knowing how to heal, good healing is all about efficiency not mindless bulk of useless hps

Based on if they made healing req higher:
They would go OOM, and such healing would be too weak ^^

DPS and Tanks have expectations to their role..
so why shouldn't healers too? other then just do good dps?

Actually if they increased healing requirement, low skill healers would be booted from the role entirely. In this high healing requirement hypothetical, what happens in a boss if a dps is bad? Boss dies slower. If a tank is bad? Boss dies slower and healing requirement is higher. If the healer is bad? Wipe until the healer improves.

This is the primary concession that healer DPS provided--in lieu of a skill floor that would wall the party if not met, healers could express skill and reach a ceiling that primarily affected them and could be achieved through careful resource management.

J Allan Brack is a man I don't know beyond this quote but it does so often apply: "You think you want it, but you don't."

Increased healing requirements does not make healing itself harder!.
it just means you have to press your heal buttons more often ,
rather then pressing your 1,1,1,1 dps button..

Also healing requirements should inc gradually with your level....
that way even new player can learn..

[Nizzi]

DPS and Tanks have expectations to their role..
so why shouldn't healers too? other then just do good dps?

Increased healing requirements does not make healing itself harder!.
it just means you have to press your heal buttons more often ,
rather then pressing your 1,1,1,1 dps button..

Serious question: for someone who is constantly saying that they need to "make healers healers" implying they aren't already while calling others "dps-healers", do you actually do any endgame "high end" content on healers? Have you proven to yourself that you can handle the healing requirements of content that makes you press GCD heals more?

[Ivtrix]

You hate skill and hate high APM jobs. That's really all I'm seeing.