I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Renathras]

I can agree that my idea for AST is more complex than SMN at least, given that you'd have to memorize what the cards do, but I just don't see how the WHM would be...

DoTs are inherently more challenging to track and maintain on falloff. SMN's rotation has none, it's a straightforward rotation with literally no upkeep mechanics that can largely be boiled down to "Use everything then move on to the next stage then use everything again", and the stages are clearly segmented by the Primals/Demis. Like if you use Titan, the only thing you have to use there is its Gemshine. But on using that, you get its Astral Flow. This generates an obvious 1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2 then you move on. You can't keep hitting Gemshine once you use all 4, so then you swap to the next Primal.

This is already less complex than a DoT upkeep, especially a DoT upkeep that has such a short CD that you have to constantly use it. Moreover, a 12 sec Dia would often get in the way of using Solace/Rapture. Someone takes damage after your 3rd Glare and damage is coming up. Now you have to drop the DoT through no fault of your own to heal them. Or you can use an oGCD, refresh the DoT...well, now you have to burn an overhealing Rapture since everyone's at full health and you're coming up on 1 min and need to drop a Misery into your burst. This is already more complex than SMN, which is just "use what's up, oh, and you aren't looking at anyone's healthbars since that isn't your role".

Remember that last part is important: SMN doesn't have to devote ANY mental energy to the party's health bars. They might loosely check every 2 mins (Phoenix) who the MT is at the time (for fights with tank swaps) to apply Rekindle, but outside of someone dying (and giving a "/party <se.2> Please raise healers!" can even eliminate that) have no other responsibility. They are only beholden to their rotation, and can focus exclusively on that and the fight mechanics. Despite some people wanting to think otherwise, that is very much a consideration. We've all been "in the zone" in a 4 man spamming heals to look up and see a party member unexpectedly low on health that we have to address because someone stood in something bad.

Note also that when SMN replaces Ruin (Baha/Phoenix), you just spam that one button weaving GCDs, you don't have a micro 1-2-3 combo "because reasons".

So no, your WHM proposal is arguably more complex than SMN. And, of course, your AST proposal is as well, but I have no issue with that since "4 Healers Model" would call for that anyway. And obviously I've proposed SGE changes to focus more on Kardia and also "4 Healer Model" calls for that anyway, so...yeah.

If it helps, these are not intended to be "good" solutions. Even if both feel non-viable, the purpose of the exercise is to choose one. Although, I suppose the alternative would be that in the hypothetical, if neither are viable, the user quits the game?

I think the problem here is...everyone knows the obvious answer is (2). I think everyone, if they're being honest, answering in good faith, and trying not to hedge, would choose (2).

They don't want to, since they think that would strengthen the argument you and I are making, so instead, there will be non-answers and dithering. The working position of the more DPS camp is that that change MUST happen, and that people have to argue for why it shouldn't. That's what I've been faced with the past months in the Healer forum.

The reality is that (1) is the status quo, and, indeed, the most likely, so an argument must be made FOR the changes, and it must include why (2) ISN'T an allowable option. (2) is acceptable to many as a middle ground, and even the side that likes simple seem to largely think it would be healthy for the game to have some healer Jobs more complex to serve the needs of those who want more complex Jobs. Even I hold that position, and I'd not ever touch the more DPS focused ones. But I think it would be nice to have them for the sake of other people, a consideration the more DPS camp is unwilling to extend to the stay as-is camp.

But (1) is the status quo, meaning if no agreement is made, (1) is the default outcome, not (3). But, to maintain the illusion that (3) is the default outcome, questions like this aren't entertained (I know, I've asked before in the Healer forum. XD)

If honest, I think the more DPS people would grudgingly admit that they'd prefer (2) to (1), as (1) gives them nothing and (2) at least gives them something. It'll be like pulling teeth for you to get any to say it, though, since they likely feel it would weaken their bargaining position to say so.

If given the choice of "SCH and AST that play like/are their SB incarnations" - the literal thing many of them are asking for, btw - it seems unreasonable that those people would insist "No, we WILL quit unless WHM is also changed!". It's a case of literally giving a person the thing they ask for, but them rejecting it because they want EVERYthing and aren't interested in any compromise, and don't really care that other people would be upset and get nothing at all for them to get everything they want.

And for the life of me, I can't figure out how to get people to see that...

One of my favorite things about 14 is that every job is expected to contribute significantly to DPS, not just DPS jobs. Stance dancing of ARR/HW was my absolute favorite playstyle and mechanic. I want to heal, but I also want to hit things and have to think about hitting things while I'm healing.

And as it turns out, that's a thing that a lot of people dislike about 14, and contrary to popular belief, was not common or expected in ARR and HW, especially on WHM. (SCH was a special case in ARR due to Lustrate being % based and ignoring Cleric entirely; can't remember when they changed that, though...)

See my last post.

Healers are NOT where tanks are right now. Look at all the healing tools vs all the mitigation tools tanks have. Tanks obviously do not need a kit front loaded with mitigation. Some have more than others, and that's fine. I think healers should be that way too. They don't need all the healing tools they have with the current crappy encounter design and they can all stand to have more dps buttons.

I think you're missing the part of this argument where literally everyone opposed to ALL FOUR Healer Jobs having more DPS buttons are asking for encounter design to change to require more healing. Even many of the people asking for more DPS buttons. It's a very narrow segment - and exclusively the people asking for more DPS buttons - that are insisting encounter design remain unchanged.

...one could be forgiven for thinking they want to play DPS rather than to heal since they reject anyone suggesting healing requirements be what is changed instead...

WAR, GNB, PLD, and DRK all have a basic 123 rotation.

...and most of the "more DPS button" people have insisted both in the Healer forum and here that they aren't talking about a 1-2-3 and many have even outright agreed that 1-2-3 would be bad for Healers and not fun, and within weeks would lead to the same complaints again.

They also have an extra burst rotation.*** With only WAR and DRK feeling similar.

PLD's burst "rotation" is hitting one button then hitting a second button 4 times.
WAR's burst "rotation" is hitting one button and then hitting a second button 5 times. (I think it's 5, anyway...)
WHM's burst "rotation" is hitting one button then hitting a second button 5-6 times.

Make PoM a 1 min CD and WHM will be a lot closer to WAR and PLD in that sense.

And I proposed a WHM rotation that would be roughly equivalent to PLD (just without the 1-2-3 that everyone in that thread was saying was bad) and you rejected it outright.

[NOTE to be extremely clear:

PLD hits FoF and Requiescat, then Goring + 4x Confetior (you can arguably then say HS + "we now return you to your regularly scheduled combo, already in progress")
WAR hits Inner Release then Primal Rend + 5x Fell Cleave
WHM hits Presence of Mind then Misery (and honestly probably a Dia around here) + 5-6x Glare

If we're talking GCDs.

If we add in oGCDs, WAR has Upheaval then Onslaughts, PLD has Expaciation/Circle and Intervenes, and WHM has Assize in there.

These are pretty comparable other than WHM only doing PoM once every 2 mins vs WAR and PLD once every minute and Assize would need to be a 30 (or 60...but I'd prefer 30) sec CD to line up with 1 min bursts. And, honestly? I'd be totally fine with PoM having a 1 min CD, personally...]

Their tank responsibilities are, by comparison to healers, either lopsided in the DPS > Mitigation or are about spread equally.

This is what I want for healers.***

I absolutely DO NOT want healers to be DPS > mitigation on the level Tanks are. Indeed, TANKS are constantly complaining about that, wanting to do "more tank" things and complaining about how they're just "budget/blue DPS". Your position is directly at odds with how the people that main that role seem to feel about it.

They can still keep the 2 main options, but they also get 2 extra burst options and have bloat removed from their healing kit they obviously don't need with some being more lopsided in DPS than others (think GNB vs WAR).

Odd, as that's basically what I'm proposing with the "4 Healers Model".

2 healers being more like GNB/DRK, 2 being more like WAR/PLD (like they are today)...except my proposal has shifted to 3 being more complex and 1 remaining how it is, so it's even more in your favor.