I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[ASkellington]

Ah, I'm guessing you're misunderstanding what I meant when I said:

As I said before, nobody can criticize you for not pressing two DPS buttons if you only have one DPS button.

That wasn't meant as a literal suggestion to only have one DPS button, but rather an example of "Ought implies can". One cannot do what they literally cannot do, and therefore nobody can say that they should do it. For an example that is more precisely tuned to this discussion, there isn't a shred of validity in suggesting that a healer should use their 1-2-3 combo if there is no 1-2-3 combo.

To clarify, I'm not actually suggesting anything less than "maintain one DoT and one DPS skill". I'm suggesting that if there are healers who want a more involved DPS rotation, we should at the very least leave one healer's DPS kit the old way so that players who didn't want that additional complexity can continue to play their role at the same level of efficacy without the potential for increased expectations/criticism.

That's not fair to the people who want their healer to also have that additional complexity.

I'm not saying all healers should have the same complexity. But all four healer's current design needs a massive change to their down time. Not a one is good for an MMORPG.

[LilimoLimomo]

I'm not saying all healers should have the same complexity. But all four healer's current design needs a massive change to their down time. Not a one is good for an MMORPG.

To be clear, I don't think a fancier DPS rotation is a solution to healer downtime. That's a much bigger issue that I feel is outside the scope of this thread.

That's not fair to the people who want their healer to also have that additional complexity.

True, but in the exact same stride it's not fair to the people who want less complexity if their job gains more complexity. The idea with some jobs getting that change and some jobs not getting it is that neither preference is entirely ignored.

[AmiableApkallu]

To clarify, I'm not actually suggesting anything less than "maintain one DoT and one DPS skill". I'm suggesting that if there are healers who want a more involved DPS rotation, we should at the very least leave one healer's DPS kit the old way so that players who didn't want that additional complexity can continue to play their role at the same level of efficacy without the potential for increased expectations/criticism.

But here's the thing: If you have only one casted nuke and one DoT, I can easily criticize you for not pushing them because it's absolutely trivial for me to look over at the party list and see whether that nuke is going off at the same approximate frequency as my own GCDs, or to check the enemy's debuffs and the timers on them. In essence, your kit gives you nothing to hide behind.

If instead you have multiple buttons, maybe one of which is an instant that gets pushed with some relatively high frequency, maybe some or all of which tie into a gauge spender/builder thingy, then it becomes much more difficult for me to judge whether you're DPSing optimally. Maybe I didn't see a cast because you hit an instant instead. Maybe I didn't see some skill because you don't yet have the gauge for it. Your kit gives you plenty of places to hide. I'd have to specifically be gunning for you or just assert rudely, without evidence, that you need to "git gud."

And anyone who's going to be rude in the "more buttons" scenario is assuredly going to be rude in the "fewer buttons" scenario, so there's no loss there, only a potential gain.

(And if someone's using a third-party tool to pass judgement, nothing short of engineering the game to lock those tools out is going to be sufficient.)

[ASkellington]

True, but in the exact same stride it's not fair to the people who want less complexity if their job gains more complexity. The idea with some jobs getting that change and some jobs not getting it is that neither preference is entirely ignored.

This is not true. "Some jobs" is not, your job. This reads as "I want to see greater complexity to my job, but I can't have it, I must go to another job". When said job can have greater complexity, just not as much as one would like. Limiting a job to two buttons means it can't even get that extra complexity.

As for a fancier DPS rotation being the solution. Well no. If you want my opinion on what needs to happen to healers:

• They all do need a few extra dps buttons.
• Said dps buttons need to connect with their theme and kit.
• Encounter design needs to change - faster telegraphs, more unavoidable damage.
• Healer kits need to be gutted and redesigned with all four receiving clear healing and as mentioned before damaging identities akin to what they have in PvP (as in diverse and not the same as the other).
• MP sustain should come back and be a focus.

Now what's the problem with all of that? SE doesn't want to do it and at this point likely can't.

All four healers need an overhaul close to what SMN got. Or more accurately, what the PvP classes got. SE has proven they don't have the resources to do that many classes at once.

Encounter design is where they like it. They don't want to increase healing requirements or make healing harder for the exact same reasons people don't want to add more dps: it will scare new healers. Same with MP.

Adding extra DPS is quite literally the bare minimum they can do to add engagement to players who want more out of their jobs. All four of them.

[LilimoLimomo]

But here's the thing: If you have only one casted nuke and one DoT, I can easily criticize you for not pushing them because it's absolutely trivial for me to look over at the party list and see whether that nuke is going off at the same approximate frequency as my own GCDs, or to check the enemy's debuffs and the timers on them. In essence, your kit gives you nothing to hide behind.

If instead you have multiple buttons, maybe one of which is an instant that gets pushed with some relatively high frequency, maybe some or all of which tie into a gauge spender/builder thingy, then it becomes much more difficult for me to judge whether you're DPSing optimally. Maybe I didn't see a cast because you hit an instant instead. Maybe I didn't see some skill because you don't yet have the gauge for it. Your kit gives you plenty of places to hide. I'd have to specifically be gunning for you or just assert rudely, without evidence, that you need to "git gud."

And anyone who's going to be rude in the "more buttons" scenario is assuredly going to be rude in the "fewer buttons" scenario, so there's no loss there, only a potential gain.

In theory you certainly could criticize the exact cadence of a person's timing. But I'm not concerned about that for a few reasons:

In all the casual content I've done with less-skilled players, I've never seen anyone make that kind of criticism. I've seen lots of criticism about not casting specific spells, though.

And that's probably because "You aren't pressing your buttons at optimal times" and "You never cast Glarega" are two very different kinds of criticism. One is talking about never using a valuable part of a player's kit, while one is much more down the nitpick road. Given that difference, I don't think there's a reason to presume that in the absence of Glarega, good faith criticism about never casting Glarega would simply be replaced by good faith criticism about button timing optimization. Again, I've never seen such a criticism.

Have you ever seen criticism like that while running a dungeon? And if so, how frequently?

[Sebazy]

As I said before, nobody can criticize you for not pressing two DPS buttons if you only have one DPS button.

Some people simply can't take criticism, be it grounded in reality, trite jabs or even clearly fictitious nonsense purely aimed at getting under the victim's skin. Even if we had no DPS capabilities whatsoever, there are people that will merrily hurl abuse at you for standing around badly and some people would still allow that to get to them. You can only wrap people up in cotton wool so much, there's a point where people have to do a bit of the leg work themselves and either apply a bit of logic to the flak coming their way or simply grow thick enough skin to ignore it. Different people will handle this stuff in all sorts of ways, some better, some far worse.

Fun story for this tangent:

I helped some randoms in PF carry a PLD through T5 in ARR late in the patch but when it was still current, the PLD was clearly struggling with the fight and as someone who had experienced something similar with a static tank playing on PS3, I offered some tips that we had used to make things easier. The BLM who was organising the carry neatly pointed out if I healed as well as I gave advice, we'd have killed Twin already. Rather than take offence or fire back, I took this as my cue to completely overheal everything, chad the healing as much as I could and step on the SCH's toes as much as possible.

An expansion and house fire later, once I started looking to raid again for Midas, I got recruited by the group that I did that T5 with, BLM, SCH and all. I'd proceed to raid with them from then onwards and we're all still a static to this day.

If there's one thing FFXI taught me well, it's that being able to extract something positive from negativity is a huge skill to have. Even if it's just finding humour in it, it makes a massive difference.

[LilimoLimomo]

This is not true. "Some jobs" is not, your job.

I mean, I get it. But again, it's the same thing. If my main is White Mage, and it gets changed in a way that I don't want, that's bad for me. So if Player A and Player B both play White Mage and both want different things, whether the job changes or not, one of them will be at a loss.

So, given that situation, if you're going to change White Mage in a way that will alienate a certain set of White Mage players, there are two basic ways to do it:

1. Change all the healers so that they all have the feature that alienates this set of players.

2. Change some healers to be the new way, but leave some to be the old way.

With the first option, if you're a player who is alienated by the change, too bad, sucks to be you, this game no longer welcomes your preferences. But at least with the second, even if you aren't getting your first choice, even if you need to change classes to do it, there's a class where you can still have the type of experience you enjoy, the one that fits your needs.

I think the option that caters to multiple preferences is the better choice because it serves the most people as best it can, thus maximizing utility.

[Moonlite]

Just a random opinion. But SE is really missing a huge chance with so many jobs. Not every job needs to have the same limited rotation. If someone wants to press five buttons to get max dps and someone wants to press one button to get max dps. They have more then enough healers to make both playstyles a reality. This is the same for all roles maybe one tank is simple attack that gives a defence buff and another is a heavy rotation and lots of situational cool downs. This game has enough room for both players. And they might be able to make more complex encounters if people had simpler roles and keep the floor about where they are now.

[ForsakenRoe]

True, but in the exact same stride it's not fair to the people who want less complexity if their job gains more complexity. The idea with some jobs getting that change and some jobs not getting it is that neither preference is entirely ignored.

long response

Which is why the solution should not be 'leave one exactly as it is', but 'balance the extra complexity for one of the healers in such a way that it is mostly ignoreable for those who don't want to interact with it'. Look at it this way, if we have only Dia and Glare for the majority of our GCDs, then any movement that costs us a Glare is punished even harder, because that's the majority of our damage: Glare. Dia doesn't need to be 2.3ish Glare's worth of damage, it being that high just makes missing ticks of it (due to being bad at DOT management for example) more punishing. It could be 450p total instead of 715 with the missing potency moved elsewhere in the kit. But because SE has removed so much of our kit now, all of the potency has to be forced into the few buttons we have left.

Besides that, the 'leave one exactly as it is' has been argued to death already. For my part, my reasoning for why it's not a great idea is twofold: one, the job that usually gets thrown out there as 'the one to leave alone', WHM, previously did have more buttons than currently. 'Keep it as it is, for those who enjoy the current gameplay' didn't seem to matter going into SHB, so I equally don't see it as a reason that applies now, at least, no more than it should have back then. Secondly, 'keeping one simple for those who like simpler healer design' does not have to directly translate to 'keep it exactly as it is, with zero changes at all'. We already know that SE will add stuff for the expansion, so that alone will cause 'changes to the job', so that falls flat IMO. I would agree that there should be a spectrum of 'complexities', going WHM>SGE>>>SCH>>AST probably, but that spectrum does not necessitate WHM stays exactly where it is. I made a chart a while back, here is a retrofitted version to illustrate what I mean:

This is something along the lines of what I'd like to see for each job's complexity. Green is 'complexity of getting your healing out', red is 'complexity of dealing damage, either by direct skills or buffing allies', and gold is 'the absolute theoretical maximum complexity, which you'd run into if you were aiming to get rank 1 parses'. The reason for the SGE 'gold bar' being so long is because I would like to see it's 'damage>healing' identity properly realized, so optimizing that would theoretically be quite technical. Bearing in mind that the DPS classes, not shown on this chart, would have their bars fall anywhere between the 4th and final lines (with BLM probably having it's 'gold bar' going off the side of the chart), I'd say the proposed complexity totals for healers, even AST, is quite respectful of casuals and of the players that the 'one needs to stay the same' intends to benefit.

As the chart shows, I would like to have WHM's healing AND it's damage both be simple and easy to execute, as it is the case now. But I would also like for there to be a bit of optional depth, wherein optimizing your healing and damage adds up to a complexity total larger than the sum of it's parts. This would not affect it's simple 'easy to get into' nature for casuals, just be an extra minigame for the hardcore optimizers to mess with. The minigame of 'use Lilies to prep Misery for raidbuffs, but still make sure to use them in good places for healing' is a good example of one of these optional optimizations

As Skellington put, and I have mentioned elsewhere: I am a good example of why this idea (keep one as is) would not work well. I want to have more complexity in my healing downtime, to keep me more engaged in lower difficulty content. Doesn't matter how good I get at the game, EX roulette is still the fastest way to cap my tomes. So, I have an alt I use to reclear Savage fights with a friend, so she can 'skip' her static to the later fights they want to do (because they no longer need gear from earlier ones). This alt has one class levelled. For the sake of the example, let's say it's WHM. I do not believe that watching the other 3 healers, that my alt does not have levelled, getting more complexity to their downtime damage rotations while WHM stays exactly where it is, is going to feel good. Doubly so, when people suggest that 'if you want more complexity, play one of the other healers'. It takes time to level another job to max, I don't believe that telling someone they have to grind another job to max is a 'solution'. It's like if DRK was dying too much in dungeons because Dark Mind only affects Magic damage, and the suggested solution is 'level another tank'. Maybe I like WHM's aesthetics, or it's healing-side gameplay, or my personal reason, 'I really do not want to have to do the AST opener over and over while progging because it makes my hands hurt', but whatever my reason, I'm apparently going to be told 'nope, it's gotta stay as is, play another job'. Compared to just making all four healers have extra complexity, and said extra complexity be optional, I just don't see how it's a valid solution.

Besides, if someone's going to be a melt and complain that 'healer didn't do their optimal rotation in Aetherfont', report them. But also, if they're going to get whiny because a hypothetical reworked SCH that has 3 DOTs of staggered duration (30/24/15 for example) forgot to refresh 1 or 2 of their their DOTs for a couple of ticks (movement for example), then I'd expect they'd also be whiny about the SCH in the current design missing their one DOT for a few ticks. Doubly so in fact, because 'it's easier to refresh one DOT than three' or something. Point is, if someone's gonna be a dick, it's not going to be made less likely or more likely to occur based on job design. The healers could have passive 'you deal 100p damage to any enemy you're within 10 yards of' and they'd be complaining if you ran out of range to do a mechanic, y'know?

damn took so long to type that like 3 people already said what I wanted to

[LilimoLimomo]

Some people simply can't take criticism, be it grounded in reality, trite jabs or even clearly fictitious nonsense purely aimed at getting under the victim's skin. Even if we had no DPS capabilities whatsoever, there are people that will merrily hurl abuse at you for standing around badly and some people would still allow that to get to them. You can only wrap people up in cotton wool so much, there's a point where people have to do a bit of the leg work themselves and either apply a bit of logic to the flak coming their way or simply grow thick enough skin to ignore it. Different people will handle this stuff in all sorts of ways, some better, some far worse.

I guess I don't really see the point of bringing this up? It seems like a way to dismiss the issue as being not really an issue at all, but more of a personal problem for people who have skin with deficient thickness. Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying though.

For my part, I'm not interested in who can or can take it the best; as the FF14 team has stated, players shouldn't need to take it. Ergo, that's the guiding principle that will guide my discussion of these issues.