I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Renathras]

If instead you have multiple buttons, maybe one of which is an instant that gets pushed with some relatively high frequency, maybe some or all of which tie into a gauge spender/builder thingy, then it becomes much more difficult for me to judge whether you're DPSing optimally. Maybe I didn't see a cast because you hit an instant instead. Maybe I didn't see some skill because you don't yet have the gauge for it. Your kit gives you plenty of places to hide. I'd have to specifically be gunning for you or just assert rudely, without evidence, that you need to "git gud."

This is less an argument for having more damage buttons and more an argument for making damage buttons instant cast.

This is not true. "Some jobs" is not, your job.

My Job is WHM and you want it to be more complex. So yes, it is true.

Again, in a compromise, everyone has to give up something. Otherwise it isn't a compromise. The solutions you propose tend to be ones that get you what you want, or at least much of what you want, and don't give anything to those who want the Jobs to remain as they are now. "less change" is not giving them anything they want when what they want is "no change". Giving them "no change" for one single Job is also not giving them everything they want, as everything they want would be no change on any of the Jobs. So giving them one Job is the compromise position (actually, giving them 2 Jobs would be, but just 1 is still on the spectrum of compromise.)

I mean, I get it. But again, it's the same thing. If my main is White Mage, and it gets changed in a way that I don't want, that's bad for me. So if Player A and Player B both play White Mage and both want different things, whether the job changes or not, one of them will be at a loss.

So, given that situation, if you're going to change White Mage in a way that will alienate a certain set of White Mage players, there are two basic ways to do it:

1. Change all the healers so that they all have the feature that alienates this set of players.

2. Change some healers to be the new way, but leave some to be the old way.

With the first option, if you're a player who is alienated by the change, too bad, sucks to be you, this game no longer welcomes your preferences. But at least with the second, even if you aren't getting your first choice, even if you need to change classes to do it, there's a class where you can still have the type of experience you enjoy, the one that fits your needs.

I think the option that caters to multiple preferences is the better choice because it serves the most people as best it can, thus maximizing utility.

This.

This this this this THIS.

I've been saying this in the Healer forum for over a year now. I cannot fathom how some people still reject it, but it's the most simplistic and easy to understand thing possible.

Thank you for stating it so succinctly (something I admittedly am not gifted at.)

Just a random opinion. But SE is really missing a huge chance with so many jobs. Not every job needs to have the same limited rotation. If someone wants to press five buttons to get max dps and someone wants to press one button to get max dps. They have more then enough healers to make both playstyles a reality. This is the same for all roles maybe one tank is simple attack that gives a defence buff and another is a heavy rotation and lots of situational cool downs. This game has enough room for both players. And they might be able to make more complex encounters if people had simpler roles and keep the floor about where they are now.

Absolutely agree.

Again, "4 Healers Model" is this very idea.

Healers can have a similar model where in they have a similar healing kit (as they do now) with minor differences with varying degrees of DPS complexity that isn't just primarily a DoT and a Nuke. So why then are we forced to just have 1 or 2 healers with 2 DPS buttons when it works for tanks just fine?

That's the thing, that's what we're asking for.

Healers to have a spread like Tanks do. That would INCLUDE a "2 DPS button" version as an option. Heck, SMN is accused of being a 2 button rotation, and it's a DPS. Condensing the 1-2-3 into one button, WAR's rotation would be a 5 button one, which is roughly where healers are now. 4 GCDs and 2 oGCDs, effectively.

All righty:

1. You and I have seen VERY different proposals, then. And yes, it is how they exist currently which is why even my own proposal suggests...changing that.
2. Again, you and I have seen VERY different proposals, then. Most have annoying and tedious DPS rotations. At least all the ones in the Healer forum that weren't my own proposals (and one of them kind of was, too)
3. I've also proposed the 4 Healers Model.

As to the last: I really like some of the Jobs right now, and some feel like they're missing something and need something.

WHM feels extremely good right now, for example, other than it needs a 60 sec party mitigation button (dare we say "Pro-shell/Wall"?) Otherwise, its healing and damage dealing and even its 2 min "DPS[?]" CD of Presence of Mind all slot into the current game design space extremely well, its kit is consistent within itself, and even (most) detractors tend to say that it does achieve the goal of being straightforward and nothing about the kit is conflicting with itself or unintuitive (many say it's boring, but the kit itself tends to receive near-universal recognition as doing what it needs to do on a basic level).

On the other hand, SCH is powerful but clunky and feels like it has some weird holes in the kit and some things that feel like they were designed for a different time and setup, like Ruin 2 not having as much of a place now that Broil allows weaving and more movement, something Ruin 2 used to be the tool for. Aetherpact was an answer to the removal of macro-able Embrace. Faerie Gauge was designed for that and Fey Blessing...then Fey Blessing was removed from the gauge. I could go on and on (and have many times before).

AST likewise feels like a mashup due to the removal of Nocturnal stance, shoving parts of that into the pseudo-Diurnal stance of EW AST, and the cards feel borderline vestigial at this point - Seals and Minor Arcana were added to the Job to fix problems that no longer even exist, with Astrodyne struggling to keep them relevant, and Undraw.......somehow still exists, despite being LONG passed the point it actually WAS useful to the Job's design.

SGE is the only one other than WHM that largely feels like it does what it's supposed to, though its kit is more complicated to grasp, but easier and more consistent in design than SCH's once adapted to to most players. The bigger issue is that it appears designed around more use of Kardia that was somehow removed. For example, abilities that reference Kardia say things like "increasing the cure potency of Kardion effects granted by you by 70%". This could just be awkward language to indicate "not by other SGE's", but it seems like the Job was built around the idea of having more Kardia to spread around (imagine if Physis was an AOE Kardia for 10 sec instead of just a oGCD HoT), which would also lend more freely to it focusing on a DPS rotation and just moving Kardia around the party to provide healing, or use the AOE "Pankardia" for party healing. It seems like it's mostly there, but not quote there as far as the kit feeling completely put together.

WHM is, interestingly, the only one that seems like it's actually what it's supposed to be.

I would also note that we already do have those things for the Job aesthetics and identities. The bigger problem is making those things actually relevant to healing. For example, WHM has extremely strong, spamable heals...in an encounter design that never actually uses strong, spamable heals and is focused almost entirely on party members completely avoiding damage and on mitigating damage that is unavoidable. The former of those completely removes the value of strong heals and the latter largely does while also being one thing that WHM's kit is lacking and needs, that 60 sec party mit I mentioned earlier.

You used...

Your snark and sarcasm are noted.

This was in answer to the argument of healers being unable to heal the content. Clearly people were able to do it. Hell, I was!

Because 2 dps buttons doesn't equal simple to me.

You...are unique, than. I feel like most people would consider 2 DPS buttons simple.

...notwithstanding all Healer Jobs have at least 5:

WHM: Glare, Dia, Holy, Misery, Assize, Presence of Mind (arguably Solace/Rapture since they feed into Misery)
SCH: Broil, Bio, Art of War, Ruin 2, Energy Drain
AST: Malific, Combust, Gravity, Macrocosmos, Earthly Star
SGE: Dosis, EuDosis, Dyskrasia, Plegma, Toxicon, Pneuma

SMN is an example of a simple DPS Job rotation. It's also generally accused of being a 2 button rotation (another hyperbolized argument, but if it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander). Gemshine and Astral Flow are your main buttons. Honestly, I'm not sure why Gemshine/Ruin are even separate buttons (same for Precious Brilliance and Tri-Disaster) considering Bahamut/Phoenix use those instead. Outside of that, you have two GCDs you use once per minute (Enkindle and Energy Drain/Siphon), one you use once every 2 minutes (Searing Light, like PoM OR Chain Stratagem OR Divination), and the optimization is trying to get Fester/Painflare (x4) into the 2 minute windows (which is similar to what SCH does with its Energy Drain), and then Ruin 4 floating around out there...for reasons.

WAR's actual damage rotation, if you remove the 1-2 (since, as everyone says, 1-2-3 isn't complex and doesn't bring anything to the table), is roughly equivalent. Path, Eye, Rend, Cleave, Upheaval. Most of your time is spent on the Storm's Path (Glarespam) combo, with Storm's Eye used roughly every 30 sec (I was told Dia stacking doesn't add any complexity, so that means Surging Tempest sometimes being optimal to use 2 in a row doesn't count, either), Upheaval used on CD (like Assize), Inner Release on CD (like PoM), Primal Rend after that (like Misery), then Fell Cleave spam (a different kind of Glare spam). Only other thing is it has Infuriate floating around because of how it doesn't stick to a rigid CD.

That is to say, CURRENT Healer rotations are already on a vaguely similar level to the simple Jobs in other roles. So leaving one as it is would not be some terrible crime.

2 buttons =/= a simple rotation. Its a lack of one.

Then fortunate are we that no Job in the game has a 2 button rotation!

[ASkellington]

That's the thing, that's what we're asking for.

Healers to have a spread like Tanks do. That would INCLUDE a "2 DPS button" version as an option. Heck, SMN is accused of being a 2 button rotation, and it's a DPS. Condensing the 1-2-3 into one button, WAR's rotation would be a 5 button one, which is roughly where healers are now. 4 GCDs and 2 oGCDs, effectively.

See my last post.

Healers are NOT where tanks are right now. Look at all the healing tools vs all the mitigation tools tanks have. Tanks obviously do not need a kit front loaded with mitigation. Some have more than others, and that's fine. I think healers should be that way too. They don't need all the healing tools they have with the current crappy encounter design and they can all stand to have more dps buttons.

Also you're completely undermining the tanks' dps situation. Which I've explained to you before but again, you don't want to read what I have to say.


WAR, GNB, PLD, and DRK all have a basic 123 rotation.

They also have an extra burst rotation.*** With only WAR and DRK feeling similar.

Their tank responsibilities are, by comparison to healers, either lopsided in the DPS > Mitigation or are about spread equally.

This is what I want for healers.***

They can still keep the 2 main options, but they also get 2 extra burst options and have bloat removed from their healing kit they obviously don't need with some being more lopsided in DPS than others (think GNB vs WAR).

[Renathras]

I can agree that my idea for AST is more complex than SMN at least, given that you'd have to memorize what the cards do, but I just don't see how the WHM would be...

DoTs are inherently more challenging to track and maintain on falloff. SMN's rotation has none, it's a straightforward rotation with literally no upkeep mechanics that can largely be boiled down to "Use everything then move on to the next stage then use everything again", and the stages are clearly segmented by the Primals/Demis. Like if you use Titan, the only thing you have to use there is its Gemshine. But on using that, you get its Astral Flow. This generates an obvious 1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2 then you move on. You can't keep hitting Gemshine once you use all 4, so then you swap to the next Primal.

This is already less complex than a DoT upkeep, especially a DoT upkeep that has such a short CD that you have to constantly use it. Moreover, a 12 sec Dia would often get in the way of using Solace/Rapture. Someone takes damage after your 3rd Glare and damage is coming up. Now you have to drop the DoT through no fault of your own to heal them. Or you can use an oGCD, refresh the DoT...well, now you have to burn an overhealing Rapture since everyone's at full health and you're coming up on 1 min and need to drop a Misery into your burst. This is already more complex than SMN, which is just "use what's up, oh, and you aren't looking at anyone's healthbars since that isn't your role".

Remember that last part is important: SMN doesn't have to devote ANY mental energy to the party's health bars. They might loosely check every 2 mins (Phoenix) who the MT is at the time (for fights with tank swaps) to apply Rekindle, but outside of someone dying (and giving a "/party <se.2> Please raise healers!" can even eliminate that) have no other responsibility. They are only beholden to their rotation, and can focus exclusively on that and the fight mechanics. Despite some people wanting to think otherwise, that is very much a consideration. We've all been "in the zone" in a 4 man spamming heals to look up and see a party member unexpectedly low on health that we have to address because someone stood in something bad.

Note also that when SMN replaces Ruin (Baha/Phoenix), you just spam that one button weaving GCDs, you don't have a micro 1-2-3 combo "because reasons".

So no, your WHM proposal is arguably more complex than SMN. And, of course, your AST proposal is as well, but I have no issue with that since "4 Healers Model" would call for that anyway. And obviously I've proposed SGE changes to focus more on Kardia and also "4 Healer Model" calls for that anyway, so...yeah.

If it helps, these are not intended to be "good" solutions. Even if both feel non-viable, the purpose of the exercise is to choose one. Although, I suppose the alternative would be that in the hypothetical, if neither are viable, the user quits the game?

I think the problem here is...everyone knows the obvious answer is (2). I think everyone, if they're being honest, answering in good faith, and trying not to hedge, would choose (2).

They don't want to, since they think that would strengthen the argument you and I are making, so instead, there will be non-answers and dithering. The working position of the more DPS camp is that that change MUST happen, and that people have to argue for why it shouldn't. That's what I've been faced with the past months in the Healer forum.

The reality is that (1) is the status quo, and, indeed, the most likely, so an argument must be made FOR the changes, and it must include why (2) ISN'T an allowable option. (2) is acceptable to many as a middle ground, and even the side that likes simple seem to largely think it would be healthy for the game to have some healer Jobs more complex to serve the needs of those who want more complex Jobs. Even I hold that position, and I'd not ever touch the more DPS focused ones. But I think it would be nice to have them for the sake of other people, a consideration the more DPS camp is unwilling to extend to the stay as-is camp.

But (1) is the status quo, meaning if no agreement is made, (1) is the default outcome, not (3). But, to maintain the illusion that (3) is the default outcome, questions like this aren't entertained (I know, I've asked before in the Healer forum. XD)

If honest, I think the more DPS people would grudgingly admit that they'd prefer (2) to (1), as (1) gives them nothing and (2) at least gives them something. It'll be like pulling teeth for you to get any to say it, though, since they likely feel it would weaken their bargaining position to say so.

If given the choice of "SCH and AST that play like/are their SB incarnations" - the literal thing many of them are asking for, btw - it seems unreasonable that those people would insist "No, we WILL quit unless WHM is also changed!". It's a case of literally giving a person the thing they ask for, but them rejecting it because they want EVERYthing and aren't interested in any compromise, and don't really care that other people would be upset and get nothing at all for them to get everything they want.

And for the life of me, I can't figure out how to get people to see that...

One of my favorite things about 14 is that every job is expected to contribute significantly to DPS, not just DPS jobs. Stance dancing of ARR/HW was my absolute favorite playstyle and mechanic. I want to heal, but I also want to hit things and have to think about hitting things while I'm healing.

And as it turns out, that's a thing that a lot of people dislike about 14, and contrary to popular belief, was not common or expected in ARR and HW, especially on WHM. (SCH was a special case in ARR due to Lustrate being % based and ignoring Cleric entirely; can't remember when they changed that, though...)

See my last post.

Healers are NOT where tanks are right now. Look at all the healing tools vs all the mitigation tools tanks have. Tanks obviously do not need a kit front loaded with mitigation. Some have more than others, and that's fine. I think healers should be that way too. They don't need all the healing tools they have with the current crappy encounter design and they can all stand to have more dps buttons.

I think you're missing the part of this argument where literally everyone opposed to ALL FOUR Healer Jobs having more DPS buttons are asking for encounter design to change to require more healing. Even many of the people asking for more DPS buttons. It's a very narrow segment - and exclusively the people asking for more DPS buttons - that are insisting encounter design remain unchanged.

...one could be forgiven for thinking they want to play DPS rather than to heal since they reject anyone suggesting healing requirements be what is changed instead...

WAR, GNB, PLD, and DRK all have a basic 123 rotation.

...and most of the "more DPS button" people have insisted both in the Healer forum and here that they aren't talking about a 1-2-3 and many have even outright agreed that 1-2-3 would be bad for Healers and not fun, and within weeks would lead to the same complaints again.

They also have an extra burst rotation.*** With only WAR and DRK feeling similar.

PLD's burst "rotation" is hitting one button then hitting a second button 4 times.
WAR's burst "rotation" is hitting one button and then hitting a second button 5 times. (I think it's 5, anyway...)
WHM's burst "rotation" is hitting one button then hitting a second button 5-6 times.

Make PoM a 1 min CD and WHM will be a lot closer to WAR and PLD in that sense.

And I proposed a WHM rotation that would be roughly equivalent to PLD (just without the 1-2-3 that everyone in that thread was saying was bad) and you rejected it outright.

[NOTE to be extremely clear:

PLD hits FoF and Requiescat, then Goring + 4x Confetior (you can arguably then say HS + "we now return you to your regularly scheduled combo, already in progress")
WAR hits Inner Release then Primal Rend + 5x Fell Cleave
WHM hits Presence of Mind then Misery (and honestly probably a Dia around here) + 5-6x Glare

If we're talking GCDs.

If we add in oGCDs, WAR has Upheaval then Onslaughts, PLD has Expaciation/Circle and Intervenes, and WHM has Assize in there.

These are pretty comparable other than WHM only doing PoM once every 2 mins vs WAR and PLD once every minute and Assize would need to be a 30 (or 60...but I'd prefer 30) sec CD to line up with 1 min bursts. And, honestly? I'd be totally fine with PoM having a 1 min CD, personally...]

Their tank responsibilities are, by comparison to healers, either lopsided in the DPS > Mitigation or are about spread equally.

This is what I want for healers.***

I absolutely DO NOT want healers to be DPS > mitigation on the level Tanks are. Indeed, TANKS are constantly complaining about that, wanting to do "more tank" things and complaining about how they're just "budget/blue DPS". Your position is directly at odds with how the people that main that role seem to feel about it.

They can still keep the 2 main options, but they also get 2 extra burst options and have bloat removed from their healing kit they obviously don't need with some being more lopsided in DPS than others (think GNB vs WAR).

Odd, as that's basically what I'm proposing with the "4 Healers Model".

2 healers being more like GNB/DRK, 2 being more like WAR/PLD (like they are today)...except my proposal has shifted to 3 being more complex and 1 remaining how it is, so it's even more in your favor.

[ASkellington]

Odd, as that's basically what I'm proposing with the "4 Healers Model".

2 healers being more like GNB/DRK, 2 being more like WAR/PLD (like they are today)...except my proposal has shifted to 3 being more complex and 1 remaining how it is, so it's even more in your favor.

Last I checked, no it wasn't. At no point did I ever see your 4 healer model give WHM 2 new dps buttons.

You changed Dia (in two different ways), made Glare increase the damage of Holy, gave Misery more of a chance to come up into the rotation and gave Assize 2 charges.

That's not 2 new buttons like I asked.

What does me pointing out tanks having a 123 button rotation have anything to do with healers getting a 123 rotation? The 123 rotation all healers share is quite literally their DoT and Nuke. My point that you keep refusing to see is that they can keep that and get something extra. WHM doesn't HAVE a burst rotation. The rotation you're describing is its current one.

As for the DPS party not wanting increased healing? We have asked for that already. And I will say time and time again SE has consistently failed to deliver or outright said no. For again the exact same reason you don't want healers to get extra dps: they don't want to scare new healers.

Tanks may not like their current model, but their model fits the current encounter design where there is little to mitigate, little to control and nothing to do but DPS. Healers should be fitting that model until that stance changes.

I told you why I rejected it outright. And I also told you what I would change to where I would like it all without it being "too complex". Once again, you failed to read it.

I'll post it here:

[*]Or the same concept but instead of Holy there's a new single target button, Dia remains 30s but procs said button OR Misery.[/LIST]

But because its not the way YOU want it, you want nothing to do with it.

[Renathras]

Last I checked, no it wasn't. At no point did I ever see your 4 healer model give WHM 2 new dps buttons.

I meant having some more complex and some not. I even used to use Tanks as my go-to example of that before 6.3 changed PLD as, at the time, you had WAR (simple), with the other three being variations of complexity (GNB rigid like DRG or something, DRK bursty like AST/NIN, PLD...esoteric? cursed openers and all that).

"2 new dps buttons" isn't some amazing thing. The problem is that RIGHT NOW, you mostly use one and that apparently oGCDs don't count - Assize doesn't, anyway, nor do oGCD heals. It's why I propose things like more uses of Misery or Holy to breakup the 11111 Glarespam, since that makes things more interesting while not making them bloated for no good reason - and yes, adding a button just to hit every 15 or 30 or 60 seconds just to have another button to hit with that frequency IS unneeded bloat. As I pointed out in one of my ideas you soundly rejected, you can repurpose Holy for that and break up the Glarespam pressing it every 15 seconds. FUNCTIONALLY, it's no different than adding a new button to press every 15 sec since you currently DON'T use Holy in single target rotations. It's literally identical to adding a new button, but you reject the idea outright because...you want another button on the bar instead. For reasons. And you insist that Holy must be an AOE button only, despite there being no reason it can't be part of the single target rotation if the Job was built for that.

You changed Dia (in two different ways), made Glare increase the damage of Holy, gave Misery more of a chance to come up into the rotation and gave Assize 2 charges.

Two different options to pick one or the other of, gave Glare an effect similar to PLD's Holy Might, Misery more frequent and also used it to breakup just spamming Holy in AOE, and made Assize a GCD to give you a "new" DPS button.

Yes, I added 2 new GCDs to the single target rotation - Holy and Assize - LITERALLY what you're asking for now, just without making more hotbar bloat.

That's not 2 new buttons like I asked.

Tell me, what's wrong with Holy and Assize being your 2 additional single target buttons?

Why do you need 2 "new" buttons, exactly?

What does me pointing out tanks having a 123 button rotation have anything to do with healers getting a 123 rotation?

Because you're presenting that as a difference in your argument that Healers need to be more like Tanks? I'm confused why you wouldn't think it's relevant. If you can use it as an argument in favor of your position, I can use it as one in favor of the contra.

The 123 rotation all healers share is quite literally their DoT and Nuke.

No, it's not.

Dia is (more) like Storm's Eye, Glare like Storm's Path. They're (more) like the -3 and -4 on WAR, not like a 1-2-3. You don't combo Dia with Glare or the like. They're completely disconnected and allowed to function and be applied at any time independently.

[/B] My point that you keep refusing to see is that they can keep that and get something extra.

I don't "refuse to see" it, I disagree that it's necessary or even beneficial.

WHM doesn't HAVE a burst rotation.

It literally does. Putting Misery and Dia and Assize under raid buffs is 100% its optimization and its burst. And that IS actually burst. Solo PotD and you'll find out really quick (though you don't have Misery) how much more bursty WHM is than, say, AST in that respect. It's also on a rigid-ish 1 min (Misery) and rigid 2 min (PoM) timer. Your argument is like saying "WAR's Primal Rend - Fell Cleave isn't burst, its normal rotation is to use Fell Cleave to prevent overcapping".

I get you don't want my argument to be valid...but it is. Misery and PoM are NOT part of its filler rotation.

As for the DPS party not wanting increased healing? We have asked for that already.

Ahem...

I think you're missing the part of this argument where literally everyone opposed to ALL FOUR Healer Jobs having more DPS buttons are asking for encounter design to change to require more healing. Even many of the people asking for more DPS buttons. It's a very narrow segment - and exclusively the people asking for more DPS buttons - that are insisting encounter design remain unchanged.

...one could be forgiven for thinking they want to play DPS rather than to heal since they reject anyone suggesting healing requirements be what is changed instead...

I've bolded the pertinent phrases you seem to have missed.

1) All the people wanting simple DPS want more healing.
2) Many of the people wanting more DPS want more healing, too.
3) Only a few people don't want more healing, and they're all from the more DPS camp. (I've legitimately not yet seen a person opposed to more DPS buttons opposed to more healing requirement in Savage/Ultimate content)

And I will say time and time again SE has consistently failed to deliver or outright said no.[/U][/I][/B] For again the exact same reason you don't want healers to get extra dps: they don't want to scare new healers.

This argument MAKES NO SENSE to me. Look, just...read this:

1) They've said they don't want to add more healing because it would scare off new healers.
2) They've said they don't want to add more damage buttons because it would scare off new healers.

You: So, obviously, they won't add more healing but are willing to add more damage buttons!

Do you see the problem here?

They've said that same thing ABOUT BOTH. So if that means they won't add more healing requirements...it also must mean they won't add more damage buttons. There's no world where the first of those is something they won't bow on but the second is one they will. Especially since, as well all know, they pay more attention to the JP playerbase, and the JP playerbase is even more on the "more healing" bandwagon than the NA/EU/OC playerbase is. Meaning if they WERE to go back on one of those positions, it would probably be the more healing one, NOT the more damage one.

You can't use this, in any rational world, to favor your argument and oppose the contra. If anything, everything we know and have seen suggests the opposite is more tenable.

Tanks may not like their current model, but their model fits the current encounter design where there is little to mitigate, little to control and nothing to do but DPS. Healers should be fitting that model until that stance changes.

They DO...just not in the way you want.

They can supply healing needed under current encounter designs, and they can contribute adequate DPS to clear enrages under current encounter designs. you feel they're boring in achieving their duties, but they absolutely "fit" the model, and "boring" is subjective, not universal. For those who enjoy current healing, they fit the current model just fine.

I told you why I rejected it outright. And I also told you what I would change to where I would like it all without it being "too complex". Once again, you failed to read it.

I'll post it here:

No, I get this.

What I don't get is WHY THERE MUST BE A NEW BUTTON.

As I asked above:

Tell me, what's wrong with Holy and Assize being your 2 additional single target buttons?

Why do you need 2 "new" buttons, exactly?

But because its not the way YOU want it, you want nothing to do with it.

That this is really rich coming from you notwithstanding: Again:

Tell me, what's wrong with Holy and Assize being your 2 additional single target buttons?

Why do you need 2 "new" buttons, exactly?

.

Like, seriously, why?

A new name for the ability? How is a new name "gameplay"?
A new animation? It can have an alternate animation when the proc conditions are met (see RDM's Holy/Flare/Scorch/Resolution that are all the same buttons as Aero/Thunder/Jolt-Impact) without needing a "new button".

What's the benefit of having a new button INSTEAD OF just using Holy as that "new to you/single-target fight" button?

[ASkellington]

snip

I've already answered most of this and rebutted it. And frankly unless you're going to properly read what I've said numerous times, I'm done with you. You've consistently either willfully ignored my points as evidenced by the tanks/healers comparison and clearly do not want to have a proper discussion. All you want to do is argue with me and argue over semantics instead of the real problems.


I'm only going to talk about two things here. So actually READ what I have to say for once because you haven't numerous times of which I can quote.

They've said that same thing ABOUT BOTH. So if that means they won't add more healing requirements...it also must mean they won't add more damage buttons. There's no world where the first of those is something they won't bow on but the second is one they will. Especially since, as well all know, they pay more attention to the JP playerbase, and the JP playerbase is even more on the "more healing" bandwagon than the NA/EU/OC playerbase is. Meaning if they WERE to go back on one of those positions, it would probably be the more healing one, NOT the more damage one.

You can't use this, in any rational world, to favor your argument and oppose the contra. If anything, everything we know and have seen suggests the opposite is more tenable.

You know what my thoughts on this are? And I would love for it to be shoved into the devs' faces:

You can't have both. You can't have a boring, unengaging healing design made very easy to do because you're afraid to scare off new healers from the role while also having an equally bland if not worse dps design. One or the other have to give.

Now, why I advocate dps has been repeated enmass but I'll reiterate it here:

• It is easier to keep healing easy and make dpsing more complex than it is to do the opposite. Why?

It requires new encounter designs that are completely different to what we've seen previously.

We already had a tier where they "increased damage" and the veterans who refused to come back and would have been able to handle it were absent and the new healers to take their place couldn't. Remember the healer shortage in PF? Remember YoshiP saying and I'm misquoting here: "stop asking for healer changes to bring back those veterans and just play healer instead"?

The community and devs both do not want increased healing, damn what healer mains want. There's already a thread with people not wanting to roll back the increased survivability of tanks. And while I would love to say (and have!) "suck it up" clearly I'm in the minority. I would love to have more increased healing. I would love to feel more recognized for doing my job. I would love for tanks to have their healing nerfed so I actually have a place in this game. I would love for the game as a whole to have more team play and team responsibilities to the game. The community does not seem to want it.

• It requires a redesign of all four healers.

And I'm just talking about their healing tool kit here, not their dps. We have so much bloated healing in our kit that we don't need its well beyond ridiculous.

Not a single Twelvesdamned ability we got in EW was needed. Not. A. One. Were they welcomed? Sure. I like Expedient. I like Macrocosmos. I'd like Lily Bell if it applied on party hit instead of WHM's. I like Exaltation. SGE doesn't have anything "new" to it considering it debuted in EW but I do like Kardia's concept and I like Pan(Haima).

But did we really need any of it? Hells no. And I've gone in depth as to why with just AST's tool kit alone.

In 90% of the content in this game I can quite literally (and do frequently) heal with my lv70 toolkit and nothing else. MAYBE I'll use Macro over ES just because I like the ability but there is no where in the game where it's needed and I can't make do with other parts of my kit and have a better time with it while doing so.

Skills need to be pruned. Ideas need to be expanded upon. SGE is considered a failure by the healing community because its concept (Kardia) felt barely explored and seemed like the devs didn't even want to TRY to make a new healer because they just want to "make sure newbies have what they need" like a checklist.

And this is probably the core issue that the devs really need to rectify: not only that they don't want to try, but when they do "try" it feels like they don't even care. They don't care about what HEALERS want - a fun job experience like everyone else. They only care about the "new player experience" which I don't even believe at this point, and making sure what seems to be their "favored role" of DPS doesn't have to "suffer" with a new healer trying to learn their kit and dying repeatedly.

And note: I don't blame DPS for this nor new players specifically, but I do 100% blame the devs for sucking the life out of what makes the healing role fun and using them as a scapegoat.

Point is: they don't want to make fun healers. They want to make safe healers who have no way of screwing up.

• Healer down time is still going to be a thing and said down time should be further expanded upon.

There is going to be times where healers aren't going to be healing because there is no reason to heal. Even in a group setting. And while YOU may not find spamming Glare to not be tiresome in solo content, a good chunk of people are. Even adding buffs and debuffs aren't going to fix that issue. And considering WHMs have been asking for something over SCH and AST (and now SGE) I'm not willing to leave them behind. Further...

• You're so worried about healers being bullied over not pressing a few extra dps buttons and doing damage while also completely forgetting that, outside of Ex/Savage it doesn't matter.

No one is going to care about missed dps in a casual setting. Do you know how many times on the rare occassion I play GNB I've had my Gnashing Fang-Continuation drift? Plenty. Do people call me out for it? No.

"But that's just your experience someon-" I know that. I've heard it and I've had it done to me. On WHM no less. I even called the person out on it. You can even look through my posts where I detailed a WoD run where I had a PoS dps call out the healers in our alliances and I backed said healers up.

It happens.

But designing an entire role to prevent it from happening... is a stupid idea.

Why? It doesn't work. People are STILL going to be called out for X/Y/Z reason. And worse your giving rise to the problem of new healers not knowing how to be better because you don't give them the design space to be better.

I said it in my one post you've yet to read, but I'll say it here too:

A class/job's kit design should not be built around "accessibility" in terms of fool proofing it. Giving people an easier job to play is one thing. I'm not against that. I don't like SMN as it is right now and it deserves the current backlash it's gotten as well as changes to its new design to make it better. But giving people an easy job to do well with is not a bad idea.

Where it becomes a bad idea is where you give nothing for that class to grow in under the false pretenses of it being "easy". And that is where healers are at right now. They have nothing to grow in. The reason people are so harsh with healers doing dps is BECAUSE healers don't have that high of a bar to cross. You quite literally have NO EXCUSE to not be pressing your dps buttons at all for the entirety of a fight. Are you going to miss some? Yeah. Do you get a pass for doing nothing at all? Unless the fight's literally that short (and I'm talking about bosses here and not trash) NO.

And DPS is lax. I don't think there's many EXs or Raids (normal) or even Dungeons where there's an enrage timer. Which brings me to my final point:

• Giving more depth to the DPS is easier for the simple fact that if you make healing harder, less people are going to be willing to deal with a new or inexperienced healer when it's going to equal deaths and/or wipes.

You not doing DPS isn't some sacrilegious thing that people make it out to be (other than you standing there doing nothing at all). You not adequetely healing though? You think being bashed for not doing dps is bad? Wanna see what it looks like for not doing your "job"?

Cause I've been there. Plenty of times. I've been playing healer for over a decade and part of the reason why I've not been scared off of the role is because I didn't have a group of people harassing me on healing wrong when I was learning, offering no critique or how to improve.

I have a friend who did though. And they're deathly afraid of healing in this game. Enough so that I can't even help them despite them liking how AST looks. They actively don't want to deal with that harassment anymore. And I don't blame them. Because I've had that turned on me.

Only, that happened well after I've gotten confident in my healing skills. Several years after my career. I've even laid it into a tank who was doing their job wrong and telling them no amount of healing was going to fix their squishy butt. A new healer's not going to do that.

And worse? Unlike DPSing which isn't their primary job, healing technically is. Its gonna hurt worse. But hey if you want to bring that into the game, fine. I'm not going to be affected.

Now, I'm of the mind that said healers can grow from it. But if they can grow from increased healing, they can also grow from increased DPS buttons. Especially if it is quite literally nothing more than a Phlegma like ability - a stand alone dps button on a moderately short recast timer (say 20s).

As for this part:

Tell me, what's wrong with Holy and Assize being your 2 additional single target buttons?

I answered that on two separate occasions. I'll repeat them here:

Holy is an AOE not a single target button. Unless you're going to replace it with something else I see no reason why I would want it in a single target rotation. I don't like having a single target GCD on sub45 MNK and I don't want it here.

Assize is not a dps button. Not because its an oGCD but because it has healing tied to it. I don't consider Earthly Star a dps button and I don't consider Macrocosmos a dps button. WHY would I consider Assize to be one just because you to make a GCD with 2 charges? So it can be different than Phlegma?

You can change it 2 charges and on the GCD. I don't mind either way. But please stop saying what I'm asking for, because its not. YOU think its what I'm asking for, but its not what I'm asking for. And you telling me its what I'm asking for makes YOU the liar. Not me. You are asking for MY opinion. Not what YOU think is MY opinion. Take it and either use it or don't.

You've done so with everything else I've said, why not that?

[Shurrikhan]

And I see absolutely no appeal in repurposing Holy into a ST rotation.

...So you've got three options:

• Don't get another action to use in single-target combat.
• Get another action to use in single-target combat, and use up another button in providing it.
• Get another action to use in single-target combat, do not use up another button in providing it, and (like Misery) allow that action some greater nuance in fights that have adds.

Allowing Holy to be infrequently (e.g., via procs or ramp-up) useful also in single-target combat is the last of the three. It offers the most additional depth... and at no button cost.

It wouldn't remove the ability from being your AoE filler; it'd just added use cases available to it atop that.

Of all the things I'd like to expand on in kits healer and non that doesn't even make the top 20.

Were you not just asking for at least one more attack to press in single-target combat? That would be an additional button to press in single-target combat. Note that it in no way removes Holy from also acting as your AoE filler.

Its not the only ability that is button bloat in ST situations.

That's essentially saying that button bloat is never worth addressing if there's more than 1 button's worth of bloat...

I don't see it as a problem that needs to be fixed.

give WHM 2 new dps buttons

If you go from never using the button in ST to using the button in ST, it is for all intents and purposes... a newly added button. For your other button, add something new, but there's no need to waste Holy in ST or Glare in AoE. We could just use the button that's already there.

[ASkellington]

...It's literally just three options:

• Don't get another action to use in single-target combat.
• Get another action to use in single-target combat, and use up another button in providing it.
• Get another action to use in single-target combat, do not use up another button in providing it, and (like Misery) allow that action some greater nuance in fights that have adds.

I don't have a problem with option 2. "Well that's obvious."

Well no. To clarify: I don't have a problem with adding new buttons. You could add 12 extra buttons across all classes and I'd still be comfortable. I understand that's not the case for everyone and why people would prefer consolidation. But this is the context of my feelings on the matter.

I never said button bloat was never worth addressing. There are plenty of areas where I think abilities could be pruned because they're redundant or changed to be less niche. AOE attacks are not one of them, thus why I see no reason to move Holy into it.

Asking for another attack to press in ST is not what I meant at all when I mean "expand". Making things like Synastry work with oGCDs (and A. Benefic) is more what I mean. You can consider doing the same to Holy in this context, but no. It's not what I meant.

You see it as a waste of space to not use what we already have when its there to be used with changes. Which is a fair stance.

I see it as a waste of potential and more importantly, considering my opinion of the devs currently, a form of "this is all you could be bothered to do?"

Now granted Renathras is the one to propose the idea and not the devs. And the design is more to be accomedating to WHM mains while also giving the expanded rotation we're asking for and not meant to be a slap in the face. But if the devs WERE to do something like this would I appreciate it? I'd appreciate it as much as I currently appreciate SGE.

So no when offered the oppertunity to have something fresh and new and "Use Glare X times to strengthen a Holy you'll want to use in ST because its strength has now been increased" I'm going to advocate for the former.

I am fine with Holy being as it is. I don't see it needing to be more than what it is.

And if you want Holy to have more greater nuance in fights just allow it to Silence if it cannot Stun. WHM had a bind didn't it? Holy can be its Interject then.

[Shurrikhan]

So no when offered the oppertunity to have something fresh and new and "Use Glare X times to strengthen a Holy you'll want to use in ST because its strength has now been increased" I'm going to advocate for the former.

The only unique advantage of using a new button is that whatever effect and visual you want to add doesn't have to also have an AoE damage and AoE stun element to it. Everything else, including even the name, icon, and visuals, can be provided newly despite using that same button.

You want a DoT? It can have a DoT.
You want a burst CD? It can act as a burst CD.
You want a granularly charged-up attack? It can act as a granularly charged up attack.
You want something that builds up stacks before another action B can then be used precisely X seconds after another preparatory action C? An additional effect can do that.

Anything you could do with a new action, you can add to an existing action so long as you aren't directly nerfing that existing action's existing capacities in doing so (i.e., so long as, say, your proc-upgraded version of your situational/filler AoE doesn't lose its capacity to still be a situational/filler AoE, forcing you awkwardly to click off its buff to meet its original purpose).

And if you want Holy to have more greater nuance in fights just allow it to Silence if it cannot Stun. WHM had a bind didn't it? Holy can be its Interject then.

Again, it's not either-or.

Unless you have as low an opinion of XIV players as the devs do, there's nothing preventing a skill from having both a timing that's optimal for your own damage contribution and a timing that's optimal for the party's DPS and a net best balance between the two. A gap-closer can deal damage. A silence can be more than 'just' a silence.

You can have a skill with a situational usage and an "obligatory" usage (flexibly timed or not), both.

Too few fights have anything to interrupt for Holy to be meaningfully used in single-target fights just by including a Silence (which is not the same thing as an Interrupt like Interject, btw), but you easily could have that be one more use case. All three (AoE filler, ST burst, and situational) can coexist.



I don't particularly have any horse in the race here. I'd be fine with just getting two new buttons. I'd be fine with getting 1 new button and an expanded Holy. I'd be fine with getting two new buttons and an expanded Holy atop them.

I just don't see any point to keeping Holy ONLY when a tier (A) has adds and or (B) has something interruptible AND all tanks and physical ranged are dead yet it's somehow not worth wiping. But that is a largely separate matter.

[ForsakenRoe]

This was in answer to the argument of healers being unable to heal the content. Clearly people were able to do it. Hell, I was!

You have naysayed multiple potential ideas for adding more damage buttons to healers on the grounds that it would potentially cause enrage issues if a healer didn't execute their rotation correctly in EX trials and Savages.

Probably, but I expect it to be even less likely for SE to make healing engaging than to give us some 'mostly ignorable extra damage buttons', since 'not being able to keep up with the extra healing' directly translates to 'party wipes because they hit zero HP'

If we're talking Savages (or even Extremes), that's irrelevant, since not doing enough DPS also leads to party wipes due to enrages.

So if the content is apparently tuned so tightly that the healer being slightly suboptimal in their damage rotation (which would be balanced such that incorrect execution, eg using Glare when Banish is ready to use, loses you 40p or less), how did you clear the fight while using so many GCD heals? The answer is, you're wrong. The content is not tuned that tightly, leniency is built into the fight to allow for the healers to use GCD heals sometimes, and this same leniency would apply with a suboptimal rotation.

Additionally, you've given extremely specific optimization examples to try and 'yeh but what if X?' me, like 'Dia, 3 GCDs, you need to heal and refresh Dia now what', but you'd refresh Dia on the 5th GCD not 4th so your example has no conflict of actions anyway. Pedantry aside, A: you can refresh Dia and then heal after, as there are extremely few times in this game where you need to heal on the very next GCD after a damage has gone out, B: You can heal first and then Dia refresh later, losing some damage, namely 'one Dia tick per GCD heal required' which can be balanced to be a lower potency loss if needed (nothing requires that Dia be 70p per tick, it could be 50 or 30 I don't care), C: no matter what content you're in, even Ultimates, missing a Dia tick is not going to make or break the raid, and if it does you had much bigger things to work on than optimizing your single Dia tick back into the rotation. In lower content, it doesn't matter how much damage you do or don't do, so you can use the Dia/heal in any order. As long as the party lives, who actually cares?

Plus, having additional Dia's in the rotation (instant cast), plus replacing some of the Glares with Banish (which I would have as instantcast), means that the player loses less damage to things like movement. It could be argued that this 'added complexity' actually makes things easier on the 'casual player', not harder. Not everyone's got your aversion to DOTs, so not everyone's going to find my version of WHM 'more complex than SMN'. You ever try to keep doing your Glares while moving to spots for a mechanic? I remember moving 90 degrees round the arena for Act 2, or the whole Act 4 dance. And I remember dropping a fair amount of Glare casts there because I was moving, and healing. And still we cleared.

You're tilting at windmills on this. It's not even an issue. Any healer worth their Job Stone is able to make the decision of 'I need to keep the party alive' and sacrifice damage when necessary to keep the party alive. You can check my P12 logs to see just how often I throw the parse mentality out of the window to secure a clear. And how, despite using so many more GCD heals, it still gets a clear, even with early non-bis gear