I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[LilimoLimomo]

(putting this here for convenience)Given two choices, which would you prefer:

1. All healers stay basically exactly the same as they are now in Dawntrail; there are new abilities, and they're all new ways to heal that don't shift the game one way or the other.

2. Two of the healing classes (including your healing main) are the same as what's written in 1, but the other two healing classes get all the changes you personally have wanted to see...they're just not in your current main.

Which would you prefer, and why?

I re-read it, (I'm not at all offended by that) however I really don't believe I misunderstood what you propose. If I paraphrase your choices, in (2), if my main was AST, in theory I could get BrandNewMacrocosmos, BrandNewNeutralSect, and BrandNewED added but my overall game flow would not change- I'd have the same opener, cards would work the same, I would have some new heals to choose from that may have an additional effect (maybe a shield, maybe a speed buff, who knows). ONE other healer is also affected, but two are not. Not viable to me if this is correct.

In choice 2 all healers are affected as explained above using the example of AST. If I understood correctly, not viable to me.

I have the feeling you might be misundersatnding again, or maybe there's a typo? You gave 2 different explanations for choice 2.

If it helps, these are not intended to be "good" solutions. Even if both feel non-viable, the purpose of the exercise is to choose one. Although, I suppose the alternative would be that in the hypothetical, if neither are viable, the user quits the game?

[Fairexd]

For sure better support spells plus a lil more buttons in the rotation should get less boring but the is just get that that boring when u dont need to heal a single thing in a whole instance due to or that casual content dont have dmg or (and) u ahve somekind of war in your party

[IDontPetLalas]

(putting this here for convenience)Given two choices, which would you prefer:

1. All healers stay basically exactly the same as they are now in Dawntrail; there are new abilities, and they're all new ways to heal that don't shift the game one way or the other.

2. Two of the healing classes (including your healing main) are the same as what's written in 1, but the other two healing classes get all the changes you personally have wanted to see...they're just not in your current main.

Which would you prefer, and why?


I have the feeling you might be misundersatnding again, or maybe there's a typo? You gave 2 different explanations for choice 2.

If it helps, these are not intended to be "good" solutions. Even if both feel non-viable, the purpose of the exercise is to choose one. Although, I suppose the alternative would be that in the hypothetical, if neither are viable, the user quits the game?

It's a typo, I meant choice (1) in the second line, thanks, sorry for the confusion, my bad.

And if there are two unacceptable choices, I would choose neither. This is who I proceed in my professional life - there are times that I may present an option (or several options) that end up being rejected for various reasons, or someone may likewise discuss several options with me and none of them end up moving forwards. If they aren't acceptable, we don't select them. They either die there or they end up being modified.

Your point of "if neither are acceptable, the user quits the game" isn't how I see it- it's that there are solutions other than the two that you are proposing.

[Mithron]

lol. I thought the thread's title was familiar. Previously.

No one reads any forum except general discussion, much less the devs.

IMO don't need a more complex DPS rotation. You need encounters that actually make you play as a healer instead of a green DPS.

One of my favorite things about 14 is that every job is expected to contribute significantly to DPS, not just DPS jobs. Stance dancing of ARR/HW was my absolute favorite playstyle and mechanic. I want to heal, but I also want to hit things and have to think about hitting things while I'm healing.

[Renathras]

If instead you have multiple buttons, maybe one of which is an instant that gets pushed with some relatively high frequency, maybe some or all of which tie into a gauge spender/builder thingy, then it becomes much more difficult for me to judge whether you're DPSing optimally. Maybe I didn't see a cast because you hit an instant instead. Maybe I didn't see some skill because you don't yet have the gauge for it. Your kit gives you plenty of places to hide. I'd have to specifically be gunning for you or just assert rudely, without evidence, that you need to "git gud."

This is less an argument for having more damage buttons and more an argument for making damage buttons instant cast.

This is not true. "Some jobs" is not, your job.

My Job is WHM and you want it to be more complex. So yes, it is true.

Again, in a compromise, everyone has to give up something. Otherwise it isn't a compromise. The solutions you propose tend to be ones that get you what you want, or at least much of what you want, and don't give anything to those who want the Jobs to remain as they are now. "less change" is not giving them anything they want when what they want is "no change". Giving them "no change" for one single Job is also not giving them everything they want, as everything they want would be no change on any of the Jobs. So giving them one Job is the compromise position (actually, giving them 2 Jobs would be, but just 1 is still on the spectrum of compromise.)

I mean, I get it. But again, it's the same thing. If my main is White Mage, and it gets changed in a way that I don't want, that's bad for me. So if Player A and Player B both play White Mage and both want different things, whether the job changes or not, one of them will be at a loss.

So, given that situation, if you're going to change White Mage in a way that will alienate a certain set of White Mage players, there are two basic ways to do it:

1. Change all the healers so that they all have the feature that alienates this set of players.

2. Change some healers to be the new way, but leave some to be the old way.

With the first option, if you're a player who is alienated by the change, too bad, sucks to be you, this game no longer welcomes your preferences. But at least with the second, even if you aren't getting your first choice, even if you need to change classes to do it, there's a class where you can still have the type of experience you enjoy, the one that fits your needs.

I think the option that caters to multiple preferences is the better choice because it serves the most people as best it can, thus maximizing utility.

This.

This this this this THIS.

I've been saying this in the Healer forum for over a year now. I cannot fathom how some people still reject it, but it's the most simplistic and easy to understand thing possible.

Thank you for stating it so succinctly (something I admittedly am not gifted at.)

Just a random opinion. But SE is really missing a huge chance with so many jobs. Not every job needs to have the same limited rotation. If someone wants to press five buttons to get max dps and someone wants to press one button to get max dps. They have more then enough healers to make both playstyles a reality. This is the same for all roles maybe one tank is simple attack that gives a defence buff and another is a heavy rotation and lots of situational cool downs. This game has enough room for both players. And they might be able to make more complex encounters if people had simpler roles and keep the floor about where they are now.

Absolutely agree.

Again, "4 Healers Model" is this very idea.

Healers can have a similar model where in they have a similar healing kit (as they do now) with minor differences with varying degrees of DPS complexity that isn't just primarily a DoT and a Nuke. So why then are we forced to just have 1 or 2 healers with 2 DPS buttons when it works for tanks just fine?

That's the thing, that's what we're asking for.

Healers to have a spread like Tanks do. That would INCLUDE a "2 DPS button" version as an option. Heck, SMN is accused of being a 2 button rotation, and it's a DPS. Condensing the 1-2-3 into one button, WAR's rotation would be a 5 button one, which is roughly where healers are now. 4 GCDs and 2 oGCDs, effectively.

All righty:

1. You and I have seen VERY different proposals, then. And yes, it is how they exist currently which is why even my own proposal suggests...changing that.
2. Again, you and I have seen VERY different proposals, then. Most have annoying and tedious DPS rotations. At least all the ones in the Healer forum that weren't my own proposals (and one of them kind of was, too)
3. I've also proposed the 4 Healers Model.

As to the last: I really like some of the Jobs right now, and some feel like they're missing something and need something.

WHM feels extremely good right now, for example, other than it needs a 60 sec party mitigation button (dare we say "Pro-shell/Wall"?) Otherwise, its healing and damage dealing and even its 2 min "DPS[?]" CD of Presence of Mind all slot into the current game design space extremely well, its kit is consistent within itself, and even (most) detractors tend to say that it does achieve the goal of being straightforward and nothing about the kit is conflicting with itself or unintuitive (many say it's boring, but the kit itself tends to receive near-universal recognition as doing what it needs to do on a basic level).

On the other hand, SCH is powerful but clunky and feels like it has some weird holes in the kit and some things that feel like they were designed for a different time and setup, like Ruin 2 not having as much of a place now that Broil allows weaving and more movement, something Ruin 2 used to be the tool for. Aetherpact was an answer to the removal of macro-able Embrace. Faerie Gauge was designed for that and Fey Blessing...then Fey Blessing was removed from the gauge. I could go on and on (and have many times before).

AST likewise feels like a mashup due to the removal of Nocturnal stance, shoving parts of that into the pseudo-Diurnal stance of EW AST, and the cards feel borderline vestigial at this point - Seals and Minor Arcana were added to the Job to fix problems that no longer even exist, with Astrodyne struggling to keep them relevant, and Undraw.......somehow still exists, despite being LONG passed the point it actually WAS useful to the Job's design.

SGE is the only one other than WHM that largely feels like it does what it's supposed to, though its kit is more complicated to grasp, but easier and more consistent in design than SCH's once adapted to to most players. The bigger issue is that it appears designed around more use of Kardia that was somehow removed. For example, abilities that reference Kardia say things like "increasing the cure potency of Kardion effects granted by you by 70%". This could just be awkward language to indicate "not by other SGE's", but it seems like the Job was built around the idea of having more Kardia to spread around (imagine if Physis was an AOE Kardia for 10 sec instead of just a oGCD HoT), which would also lend more freely to it focusing on a DPS rotation and just moving Kardia around the party to provide healing, or use the AOE "Pankardia" for party healing. It seems like it's mostly there, but not quote there as far as the kit feeling completely put together.

WHM is, interestingly, the only one that seems like it's actually what it's supposed to be.

I would also note that we already do have those things for the Job aesthetics and identities. The bigger problem is making those things actually relevant to healing. For example, WHM has extremely strong, spamable heals...in an encounter design that never actually uses strong, spamable heals and is focused almost entirely on party members completely avoiding damage and on mitigating damage that is unavoidable. The former of those completely removes the value of strong heals and the latter largely does while also being one thing that WHM's kit is lacking and needs, that 60 sec party mit I mentioned earlier.

You used...

Your snark and sarcasm are noted.

This was in answer to the argument of healers being unable to heal the content. Clearly people were able to do it. Hell, I was!

Because 2 dps buttons doesn't equal simple to me.

You...are unique, than. I feel like most people would consider 2 DPS buttons simple.

...notwithstanding all Healer Jobs have at least 5:

WHM: Glare, Dia, Holy, Misery, Assize, Presence of Mind (arguably Solace/Rapture since they feed into Misery)
SCH: Broil, Bio, Art of War, Ruin 2, Energy Drain
AST: Malific, Combust, Gravity, Macrocosmos, Earthly Star
SGE: Dosis, EuDosis, Dyskrasia, Plegma, Toxicon, Pneuma

SMN is an example of a simple DPS Job rotation. It's also generally accused of being a 2 button rotation (another hyperbolized argument, but if it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander). Gemshine and Astral Flow are your main buttons. Honestly, I'm not sure why Gemshine/Ruin are even separate buttons (same for Precious Brilliance and Tri-Disaster) considering Bahamut/Phoenix use those instead. Outside of that, you have two GCDs you use once per minute (Enkindle and Energy Drain/Siphon), one you use once every 2 minutes (Searing Light, like PoM OR Chain Stratagem OR Divination), and the optimization is trying to get Fester/Painflare (x4) into the 2 minute windows (which is similar to what SCH does with its Energy Drain), and then Ruin 4 floating around out there...for reasons.

WAR's actual damage rotation, if you remove the 1-2 (since, as everyone says, 1-2-3 isn't complex and doesn't bring anything to the table), is roughly equivalent. Path, Eye, Rend, Cleave, Upheaval. Most of your time is spent on the Storm's Path (Glarespam) combo, with Storm's Eye used roughly every 30 sec (I was told Dia stacking doesn't add any complexity, so that means Surging Tempest sometimes being optimal to use 2 in a row doesn't count, either), Upheaval used on CD (like Assize), Inner Release on CD (like PoM), Primal Rend after that (like Misery), then Fell Cleave spam (a different kind of Glare spam). Only other thing is it has Infuriate floating around because of how it doesn't stick to a rigid CD.

That is to say, CURRENT Healer rotations are already on a vaguely similar level to the simple Jobs in other roles. So leaving one as it is would not be some terrible crime.

2 buttons =/= a simple rotation. Its a lack of one.

Then fortunate are we that no Job in the game has a 2 button rotation!

[ASkellington]

That's the thing, that's what we're asking for.

Healers to have a spread like Tanks do. That would INCLUDE a "2 DPS button" version as an option. Heck, SMN is accused of being a 2 button rotation, and it's a DPS. Condensing the 1-2-3 into one button, WAR's rotation would be a 5 button one, which is roughly where healers are now. 4 GCDs and 2 oGCDs, effectively.

See my last post.

Healers are NOT where tanks are right now. Look at all the healing tools vs all the mitigation tools tanks have. Tanks obviously do not need a kit front loaded with mitigation. Some have more than others, and that's fine. I think healers should be that way too. They don't need all the healing tools they have with the current crappy encounter design and they can all stand to have more dps buttons.

Also you're completely undermining the tanks' dps situation. Which I've explained to you before but again, you don't want to read what I have to say.


WAR, GNB, PLD, and DRK all have a basic 123 rotation.

They also have an extra burst rotation.*** With only WAR and DRK feeling similar.

Their tank responsibilities are, by comparison to healers, either lopsided in the DPS > Mitigation or are about spread equally.

This is what I want for healers.***

They can still keep the 2 main options, but they also get 2 extra burst options and have bloat removed from their healing kit they obviously don't need with some being more lopsided in DPS than others (think GNB vs WAR).

[Renathras]

I can agree that my idea for AST is more complex than SMN at least, given that you'd have to memorize what the cards do, but I just don't see how the WHM would be...

DoTs are inherently more challenging to track and maintain on falloff. SMN's rotation has none, it's a straightforward rotation with literally no upkeep mechanics that can largely be boiled down to "Use everything then move on to the next stage then use everything again", and the stages are clearly segmented by the Primals/Demis. Like if you use Titan, the only thing you have to use there is its Gemshine. But on using that, you get its Astral Flow. This generates an obvious 1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2 then you move on. You can't keep hitting Gemshine once you use all 4, so then you swap to the next Primal.

This is already less complex than a DoT upkeep, especially a DoT upkeep that has such a short CD that you have to constantly use it. Moreover, a 12 sec Dia would often get in the way of using Solace/Rapture. Someone takes damage after your 3rd Glare and damage is coming up. Now you have to drop the DoT through no fault of your own to heal them. Or you can use an oGCD, refresh the DoT...well, now you have to burn an overhealing Rapture since everyone's at full health and you're coming up on 1 min and need to drop a Misery into your burst. This is already more complex than SMN, which is just "use what's up, oh, and you aren't looking at anyone's healthbars since that isn't your role".

Remember that last part is important: SMN doesn't have to devote ANY mental energy to the party's health bars. They might loosely check every 2 mins (Phoenix) who the MT is at the time (for fights with tank swaps) to apply Rekindle, but outside of someone dying (and giving a "/party <se.2> Please raise healers!" can even eliminate that) have no other responsibility. They are only beholden to their rotation, and can focus exclusively on that and the fight mechanics. Despite some people wanting to think otherwise, that is very much a consideration. We've all been "in the zone" in a 4 man spamming heals to look up and see a party member unexpectedly low on health that we have to address because someone stood in something bad.

Note also that when SMN replaces Ruin (Baha/Phoenix), you just spam that one button weaving GCDs, you don't have a micro 1-2-3 combo "because reasons".

So no, your WHM proposal is arguably more complex than SMN. And, of course, your AST proposal is as well, but I have no issue with that since "4 Healers Model" would call for that anyway. And obviously I've proposed SGE changes to focus more on Kardia and also "4 Healer Model" calls for that anyway, so...yeah.

If it helps, these are not intended to be "good" solutions. Even if both feel non-viable, the purpose of the exercise is to choose one. Although, I suppose the alternative would be that in the hypothetical, if neither are viable, the user quits the game?

I think the problem here is...everyone knows the obvious answer is (2). I think everyone, if they're being honest, answering in good faith, and trying not to hedge, would choose (2).

They don't want to, since they think that would strengthen the argument you and I are making, so instead, there will be non-answers and dithering. The working position of the more DPS camp is that that change MUST happen, and that people have to argue for why it shouldn't. That's what I've been faced with the past months in the Healer forum.

The reality is that (1) is the status quo, and, indeed, the most likely, so an argument must be made FOR the changes, and it must include why (2) ISN'T an allowable option. (2) is acceptable to many as a middle ground, and even the side that likes simple seem to largely think it would be healthy for the game to have some healer Jobs more complex to serve the needs of those who want more complex Jobs. Even I hold that position, and I'd not ever touch the more DPS focused ones. But I think it would be nice to have them for the sake of other people, a consideration the more DPS camp is unwilling to extend to the stay as-is camp.

But (1) is the status quo, meaning if no agreement is made, (1) is the default outcome, not (3). But, to maintain the illusion that (3) is the default outcome, questions like this aren't entertained (I know, I've asked before in the Healer forum. XD)

If honest, I think the more DPS people would grudgingly admit that they'd prefer (2) to (1), as (1) gives them nothing and (2) at least gives them something. It'll be like pulling teeth for you to get any to say it, though, since they likely feel it would weaken their bargaining position to say so.

If given the choice of "SCH and AST that play like/are their SB incarnations" - the literal thing many of them are asking for, btw - it seems unreasonable that those people would insist "No, we WILL quit unless WHM is also changed!". It's a case of literally giving a person the thing they ask for, but them rejecting it because they want EVERYthing and aren't interested in any compromise, and don't really care that other people would be upset and get nothing at all for them to get everything they want.

And for the life of me, I can't figure out how to get people to see that...

One of my favorite things about 14 is that every job is expected to contribute significantly to DPS, not just DPS jobs. Stance dancing of ARR/HW was my absolute favorite playstyle and mechanic. I want to heal, but I also want to hit things and have to think about hitting things while I'm healing.

And as it turns out, that's a thing that a lot of people dislike about 14, and contrary to popular belief, was not common or expected in ARR and HW, especially on WHM. (SCH was a special case in ARR due to Lustrate being % based and ignoring Cleric entirely; can't remember when they changed that, though...)

See my last post.

Healers are NOT where tanks are right now. Look at all the healing tools vs all the mitigation tools tanks have. Tanks obviously do not need a kit front loaded with mitigation. Some have more than others, and that's fine. I think healers should be that way too. They don't need all the healing tools they have with the current crappy encounter design and they can all stand to have more dps buttons.

I think you're missing the part of this argument where literally everyone opposed to ALL FOUR Healer Jobs having more DPS buttons are asking for encounter design to change to require more healing. Even many of the people asking for more DPS buttons. It's a very narrow segment - and exclusively the people asking for more DPS buttons - that are insisting encounter design remain unchanged.

...one could be forgiven for thinking they want to play DPS rather than to heal since they reject anyone suggesting healing requirements be what is changed instead...

WAR, GNB, PLD, and DRK all have a basic 123 rotation.

...and most of the "more DPS button" people have insisted both in the Healer forum and here that they aren't talking about a 1-2-3 and many have even outright agreed that 1-2-3 would be bad for Healers and not fun, and within weeks would lead to the same complaints again.

They also have an extra burst rotation.*** With only WAR and DRK feeling similar.

PLD's burst "rotation" is hitting one button then hitting a second button 4 times.
WAR's burst "rotation" is hitting one button and then hitting a second button 5 times. (I think it's 5, anyway...)
WHM's burst "rotation" is hitting one button then hitting a second button 5-6 times.

Make PoM a 1 min CD and WHM will be a lot closer to WAR and PLD in that sense.

And I proposed a WHM rotation that would be roughly equivalent to PLD (just without the 1-2-3 that everyone in that thread was saying was bad) and you rejected it outright.

[NOTE to be extremely clear:

PLD hits FoF and Requiescat, then Goring + 4x Confetior (you can arguably then say HS + "we now return you to your regularly scheduled combo, already in progress")
WAR hits Inner Release then Primal Rend + 5x Fell Cleave
WHM hits Presence of Mind then Misery (and honestly probably a Dia around here) + 5-6x Glare

If we're talking GCDs.

If we add in oGCDs, WAR has Upheaval then Onslaughts, PLD has Expaciation/Circle and Intervenes, and WHM has Assize in there.

These are pretty comparable other than WHM only doing PoM once every 2 mins vs WAR and PLD once every minute and Assize would need to be a 30 (or 60...but I'd prefer 30) sec CD to line up with 1 min bursts. And, honestly? I'd be totally fine with PoM having a 1 min CD, personally...]

Their tank responsibilities are, by comparison to healers, either lopsided in the DPS > Mitigation or are about spread equally.

This is what I want for healers.***

I absolutely DO NOT want healers to be DPS > mitigation on the level Tanks are. Indeed, TANKS are constantly complaining about that, wanting to do "more tank" things and complaining about how they're just "budget/blue DPS". Your position is directly at odds with how the people that main that role seem to feel about it.

They can still keep the 2 main options, but they also get 2 extra burst options and have bloat removed from their healing kit they obviously don't need with some being more lopsided in DPS than others (think GNB vs WAR).

Odd, as that's basically what I'm proposing with the "4 Healers Model".

2 healers being more like GNB/DRK, 2 being more like WAR/PLD (like they are today)...except my proposal has shifted to 3 being more complex and 1 remaining how it is, so it's even more in your favor.

[ASkellington]

Odd, as that's basically what I'm proposing with the "4 Healers Model".

2 healers being more like GNB/DRK, 2 being more like WAR/PLD (like they are today)...except my proposal has shifted to 3 being more complex and 1 remaining how it is, so it's even more in your favor.

Last I checked, no it wasn't. At no point did I ever see your 4 healer model give WHM 2 new dps buttons.

You changed Dia (in two different ways), made Glare increase the damage of Holy, gave Misery more of a chance to come up into the rotation and gave Assize 2 charges.

That's not 2 new buttons like I asked.

What does me pointing out tanks having a 123 button rotation have anything to do with healers getting a 123 rotation? The 123 rotation all healers share is quite literally their DoT and Nuke. My point that you keep refusing to see is that they can keep that and get something extra. WHM doesn't HAVE a burst rotation. The rotation you're describing is its current one.

As for the DPS party not wanting increased healing? We have asked for that already. And I will say time and time again SE has consistently failed to deliver or outright said no. For again the exact same reason you don't want healers to get extra dps: they don't want to scare new healers.

Tanks may not like their current model, but their model fits the current encounter design where there is little to mitigate, little to control and nothing to do but DPS. Healers should be fitting that model until that stance changes.

I told you why I rejected it outright. And I also told you what I would change to where I would like it all without it being "too complex". Once again, you failed to read it.

I'll post it here:

[*]Or the same concept but instead of Holy there's a new single target button, Dia remains 30s but procs said button OR Misery.[/LIST]

But because its not the way YOU want it, you want nothing to do with it.

[Ezlin]

More healing is useless. The power creep makes that irrelevant.

Honestly, healers NEED to be made more interesting. All of them.

[Renathras]

Last I checked, no it wasn't. At no point did I ever see your 4 healer model give WHM 2 new dps buttons.

I meant having some more complex and some not. I even used to use Tanks as my go-to example of that before 6.3 changed PLD as, at the time, you had WAR (simple), with the other three being variations of complexity (GNB rigid like DRG or something, DRK bursty like AST/NIN, PLD...esoteric? cursed openers and all that).

"2 new dps buttons" isn't some amazing thing. The problem is that RIGHT NOW, you mostly use one and that apparently oGCDs don't count - Assize doesn't, anyway, nor do oGCD heals. It's why I propose things like more uses of Misery or Holy to breakup the 11111 Glarespam, since that makes things more interesting while not making them bloated for no good reason - and yes, adding a button just to hit every 15 or 30 or 60 seconds just to have another button to hit with that frequency IS unneeded bloat. As I pointed out in one of my ideas you soundly rejected, you can repurpose Holy for that and break up the Glarespam pressing it every 15 seconds. FUNCTIONALLY, it's no different than adding a new button to press every 15 sec since you currently DON'T use Holy in single target rotations. It's literally identical to adding a new button, but you reject the idea outright because...you want another button on the bar instead. For reasons. And you insist that Holy must be an AOE button only, despite there being no reason it can't be part of the single target rotation if the Job was built for that.

You changed Dia (in two different ways), made Glare increase the damage of Holy, gave Misery more of a chance to come up into the rotation and gave Assize 2 charges.

Two different options to pick one or the other of, gave Glare an effect similar to PLD's Holy Might, Misery more frequent and also used it to breakup just spamming Holy in AOE, and made Assize a GCD to give you a "new" DPS button.

Yes, I added 2 new GCDs to the single target rotation - Holy and Assize - LITERALLY what you're asking for now, just without making more hotbar bloat.

That's not 2 new buttons like I asked.

Tell me, what's wrong with Holy and Assize being your 2 additional single target buttons?

Why do you need 2 "new" buttons, exactly?

What does me pointing out tanks having a 123 button rotation have anything to do with healers getting a 123 rotation?

Because you're presenting that as a difference in your argument that Healers need to be more like Tanks? I'm confused why you wouldn't think it's relevant. If you can use it as an argument in favor of your position, I can use it as one in favor of the contra.

The 123 rotation all healers share is quite literally their DoT and Nuke.

No, it's not.

Dia is (more) like Storm's Eye, Glare like Storm's Path. They're (more) like the -3 and -4 on WAR, not like a 1-2-3. You don't combo Dia with Glare or the like. They're completely disconnected and allowed to function and be applied at any time independently.

[/B] My point that you keep refusing to see is that they can keep that and get something extra.

I don't "refuse to see" it, I disagree that it's necessary or even beneficial.

WHM doesn't HAVE a burst rotation.

It literally does. Putting Misery and Dia and Assize under raid buffs is 100% its optimization and its burst. And that IS actually burst. Solo PotD and you'll find out really quick (though you don't have Misery) how much more bursty WHM is than, say, AST in that respect. It's also on a rigid-ish 1 min (Misery) and rigid 2 min (PoM) timer. Your argument is like saying "WAR's Primal Rend - Fell Cleave isn't burst, its normal rotation is to use Fell Cleave to prevent overcapping".

I get you don't want my argument to be valid...but it is. Misery and PoM are NOT part of its filler rotation.

As for the DPS party not wanting increased healing? We have asked for that already.

Ahem...

I think you're missing the part of this argument where literally everyone opposed to ALL FOUR Healer Jobs having more DPS buttons are asking for encounter design to change to require more healing. Even many of the people asking for more DPS buttons. It's a very narrow segment - and exclusively the people asking for more DPS buttons - that are insisting encounter design remain unchanged.

...one could be forgiven for thinking they want to play DPS rather than to heal since they reject anyone suggesting healing requirements be what is changed instead...

I've bolded the pertinent phrases you seem to have missed.

1) All the people wanting simple DPS want more healing.
2) Many of the people wanting more DPS want more healing, too.
3) Only a few people don't want more healing, and they're all from the more DPS camp. (I've legitimately not yet seen a person opposed to more DPS buttons opposed to more healing requirement in Savage/Ultimate content)

And I will say time and time again SE has consistently failed to deliver or outright said no.[/U][/I][/B] For again the exact same reason you don't want healers to get extra dps: they don't want to scare new healers.

This argument MAKES NO SENSE to me. Look, just...read this:

1) They've said they don't want to add more healing because it would scare off new healers.
2) They've said they don't want to add more damage buttons because it would scare off new healers.

You: So, obviously, they won't add more healing but are willing to add more damage buttons!

Do you see the problem here?

They've said that same thing ABOUT BOTH. So if that means they won't add more healing requirements...it also must mean they won't add more damage buttons. There's no world where the first of those is something they won't bow on but the second is one they will. Especially since, as well all know, they pay more attention to the JP playerbase, and the JP playerbase is even more on the "more healing" bandwagon than the NA/EU/OC playerbase is. Meaning if they WERE to go back on one of those positions, it would probably be the more healing one, NOT the more damage one.

You can't use this, in any rational world, to favor your argument and oppose the contra. If anything, everything we know and have seen suggests the opposite is more tenable.

Tanks may not like their current model, but their model fits the current encounter design where there is little to mitigate, little to control and nothing to do but DPS. Healers should be fitting that model until that stance changes.

They DO...just not in the way you want.

They can supply healing needed under current encounter designs, and they can contribute adequate DPS to clear enrages under current encounter designs. you feel they're boring in achieving their duties, but they absolutely "fit" the model, and "boring" is subjective, not universal. For those who enjoy current healing, they fit the current model just fine.

I told you why I rejected it outright. And I also told you what I would change to where I would like it all without it being "too complex". Once again, you failed to read it.

I'll post it here:

No, I get this.

What I don't get is WHY THERE MUST BE A NEW BUTTON.

As I asked above:

Tell me, what's wrong with Holy and Assize being your 2 additional single target buttons?

Why do you need 2 "new" buttons, exactly?

But because its not the way YOU want it, you want nothing to do with it.

That this is really rich coming from you notwithstanding: Again:

Tell me, what's wrong with Holy and Assize being your 2 additional single target buttons?

Why do you need 2 "new" buttons, exactly?

.

Like, seriously, why?

A new name for the ability? How is a new name "gameplay"?
A new animation? It can have an alternate animation when the proc conditions are met (see RDM's Holy/Flare/Scorch/Resolution that are all the same buttons as Aero/Thunder/Jolt-Impact) without needing a "new button".

What's the benefit of having a new button INSTEAD OF just using Holy as that "new to you/single-target fight" button?