I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[LilimoLimomo]

Some people simply can't take criticism, be it grounded in reality, trite jabs or even clearly fictitious nonsense purely aimed at getting under the victim's skin. Even if we had no DPS capabilities whatsoever, there are people that will merrily hurl abuse at you for standing around badly and some people would still allow that to get to them. You can only wrap people up in cotton wool so much, there's a point where people have to do a bit of the leg work themselves and either apply a bit of logic to the flak coming their way or simply grow thick enough skin to ignore it. Different people will handle this stuff in all sorts of ways, some better, some far worse.

I guess I don't really see the point of bringing this up? It seems like a way to dismiss the issue as being not really an issue at all, but more of a personal problem for people who have skin with deficient thickness. Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying though.

For my part, I'm not interested in who can or can take it the best; as the FF14 team has stated, players shouldn't need to take it. Ergo, that's the guiding principle that will guide my discussion of these issues.

[Sebazy]

I guess I don't really see the point of bringing this up? It seems like a way to dismiss the issue as being not really an issue at all, but more of a personal problem for people who have skin with deficient thickness. Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying though.

You're not, my point is that there's only so far you can protect people. Even if you disable chat, people will still find ways to be obnoxious.

*edit*. I'll drop this one though if that's your preference, apologies if it feels like I'm trying to pressure you on the point++

[Shinkuno]

I guess I don't really see the point of bringing this up? It seems like a way to dismiss the issue as being not really an issue at all, but more of a personal problem for people who have skin with deficient thickness. Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying though.

But it is a personal problem. Sorry but i dont think crying over being told to do the job you signed up for is anyone elses problem. Not the other players, not the devs. Ive read that some of your friends are "barely good enough" for the baseline content and i have to say - sorry, but at that point you cant further nag the devs or get mad at other players calling your friends out.

The baseline in this game is already intelligence-insulting levels of easy. People press 1 button while spending 90% of their time looking at their second screen and still clear content. If your friends have issues with content that has been already dumbed down so hard you can barely call it "playing a game" then maybe its either time to get better or quit and move to a more suitable game... whatever that game might be cause outside of idle-autoplay mobile games i cant think of a single game that is this easy.

Heck, no one commented in-game on the absolutely atrocious DPS that led to the 14+ minute, wipe-free run of P7N that I got to experience.

This - it takes ALOT for people to start speaking up, they rather carry an absolute deadweight through the finish line than speaking up. So if they do, you know that something is horrible wrong.

SE also have consistently failed to push the strength and flexibility of the armoury system. With the number of jobs we have now, IMO it makes perfect sense to have some jobs more suited to content than others. As long as everyone gets their time in the sun somewhere but being off meta isn't crippling, it's all good IMO.

Before someone comes along and says 'but noooo, it'll be bad because 'insert favourite job here' will get blacklisted from PF in content it's not meta for'. My honest response is 'deal with it, make your own if you care'. FFXI showed the strengths of this in action perfectly. I'd always be one of the first to arrive at the raid and I'd usually start out on SCH so I could cover a bunch of different roles until more people turned up. As the raid gathered I'd switch out to BRD, WHM or BLM as needed and I can promise you, the variety of gameplay really kept things fresh far longer than they would have been if I'd just have turned up as BRD and spent the evening on that day in and day out.

Sometimes you've got to save players from themselves and pushing a bit of variety on them is a good way to stall burnout even if they aren't entirely onboard with it. Besides the penalties for switching jobs are minute in this game compared to a more traditional MMO like WoW.

YES YES YES thank you. It bothers me so much that people try to sweet-talk this absolute homogenization with "but what if my job was not meta?" SO WHAT, you can freely switch the jobs in this game. If someone refuses to do so because they want to play pretty flower WHM then thats on them and the game should make it clear that they dont get to do certain content then.

[Aravell]

This - it takes ALOT for people to start speaking up, they rather carry an absolute deadweight through the finish line than speaking up. So if they do, you know that something is horrible wrong.

From my years of playing this game since starting in ARR, I notice people are more likely to call someone out for greeding than they are to call someone out for underperforming.

[Shurrikhan]

From my years of playing this game since starting in ARR, I notice people are more likely to call someone out for greeding than they are to call someone out for underperforming.

Tbf, one's under tangential gag order, while the other is not.

Hasyetto Castfirespells: "But how would you KNOW I was underperforming?!"

[Aravell]

Tbf, one's under tangential gag order, while the other is not.

Hasyetto Castfirespells: "But how would you KNOW I was underperforming?!"

And that's exactly why it's extremely suspicious when someone claims they or their friend are told that they're underperforming a lot. I've seen a dungeon back in ShB where a BLM spammed Thunder IV and Blizzard II (back when Blizzard II was an AoE around yourself, so they stood at range and hit nothing with it). Nobody said a single thing even though that BLM was very obviously underperforming, you can literally see them hitting nothing with Blizzard II.

[Renathras]

But it is a personal problem. Sorry but i dont think crying over being told to do the job you signed up for is anyone elses problem.

When people signed up for Healer - instead of the neighboring role of "damage dealer" - it stands to reason they didn't sign up to "do the job" of performing a damage dealing rotation.

You have naysayed multiple potential ideas for adding more damage buttons to healers on the grounds...

I'm a BIT confused. Do you not know the difference between GCD heals and "damage buttons"?

Tell me, are you good at cooking? Are you equally good at frying, baking, basting, and steaming, or do you find some less taxing and others more?

Can you play an instrument? Do you find it equally taxing/easy to play all instruments? Piano, guitar, harmonica, trumpet, drums, xylophone, accordion, bagpipes - you find each to be equally mentally taxing and equally easy to play?

Things are different, and different people are good at different things. I'm good at reactive gameplay, which is why I prefer healers and tanks. I'm not good at DPS rotations and tracking various gauges and buffs/debuffs, which is why I dislike DPS Jobs and don't play DPS or only play the ones that have the least of that and are borderline not even DPS Jobs (namely, SMN).

If you don't understand the difference between someone asking for more GCD healing and someone asking for more DPS GCD buttons, I'm not sure you can stand in this conversation.

You're tilting at windmills on this.

No my dear. You are. I've already shown you a great solution, but it's not good enough. There's no harm that isn't exceeded by what you'd prefer instead. But it doesn't matter much what we say, Yoshi P seems pretty set in his ways on this one. So since we can't agree to a compromise, "no change" is the likely result.

I honestly see two things I need to do if they want healers to heal more, they need to drastically nerf tank healing (especially warriors on trash pulls). Or need to give healers I suggest DPS wise 2 single Target ability and I aoe ability a DOT to maintain and a proc (can be aoe or single depending on class) this gives him a dots up key a one two rotation that can sometimes lead into a three and a healing. I'm not saying it has to be competitive with like Black mage but at least something to do.

For the DPS buttons, We already have this, though, don't we? I guess the question is more about the frequency.

WHM: Glare, Misery, Assize + Dia; Holy for AOE (also Misery and Assize)
SCH: Broil, Ruin 2, Energy Drain + Bio; Art of War for AOE (also Energy Drain I guess...?)
AST: Malific, Macrocosmos, Earthly Star + Combust; Gravity for AOE
SGE: Dosis, Plegma, Toxicon, Pneuma + EuDosis; Dyskrasia for AOE (also Plegma, Toxicon, and Pneuma)

The buttons are there, it's more an argument of adjusting how frequently they're used.

I will also saying changing from one "all 4 are mostly identical" rotation to a second but also "all 4 are mostly identical" rotation probably won't fix anything. It'd be better for them to be different. One being 1 DoT and 1 spamnuke, another being a 1-2-3 but no DoT, another being 1 fillernuke and 2-3 DoTs, and another being a DoT and some kind of rotation through phases (like SMN, maybe?) would be better than going from all four being a DoT + filler nuke to a DoT + 2 filler nukes.

I do agree they need to nerf tank healing, but there's a little more. We need less pass/fail mechanics. If people get hit by avoidable damage and they die, there's nothing healers can do but raise them. We need lesser, but more frequent damage; there shouldn't be 45-60 seconds between attacks. Party mitigation should also be mostly healers and tanks, not so much DPSers. Healing for not healer role Jobs should be GCDs only. Clemency and Vercure can be used, but require sacrifice so aren't overused (generally), where things like Curing Waltz and Everlasting Flight are free and cost nothing to use, so there's no trade-off or cost-benefit to the DPS using them instead of performing its main role.

And that's exactly why it's extremely suspicious when someone claims they or their friend are told that they're underperforming a lot.

Not really. While it's a risk, people can do this with impunity if no one reports them. Most people want to just move on and so don't report, and some people forget they aren't supposed to mention add-ons. I've seen people mention add-ons (or knowledge they could only have from one) in party chats before with some version of "crap...uh...forget I said anything" and never get in trouble since no one reported them for the innocuous error. Something like "God, I'm sucking tonight, I usually get way higher numbers than this" kinds of things.

I don't at all find it odd that it happens to people. I know it's happened before in parties I was in and just no one reported it, we called the person a dick after they left and moved on.

[Aravell]

Not really. While it's a risk, people can do this with impunity if no one reports them. Most people want to just move on and so don't report, and some people forget they aren't supposed to mention add-ons. I've seen people mention add-ons (or knowledge they could only have from one) in party chats before with some version of "crap...uh...forget I said anything" and never get in trouble since no one reported them for the innocuous error. Something like "God, I'm sucking tonight, I usually get way higher numbers than this" kinds of things.

I don't at all find it odd that it happens to people. I know it's happened before in parties I was in and just no one reported it, we called the person a dick after they left and moved on.

Sure, it can happen, I'll grant you that, but it's not exactly prevalent, is it? In my 10 years of playing on multiple DCs, I've only seen one passive-aggressive callout, and it was someone saying "not gg with you" after someone said "gg" at the end of a dungeon. I'm not sure why the threat of being bullied for not using your kit properly has to be a major consideration when it's not very prevalent at all.

[ForsakenRoe]

Another day, another Ren take

When people signed up for Healer - instead of the neighboring role of "damage dealer" - it stands to reason they didn't sign up to "do the job" of performing a damage dealing rotation.

And yet, despite this, SB and earlier had a damage rotation on par with what I and others would prefer to have. Pretty much every other game with a healer/support/'guy who helps keep team alive' role has more damage complexity than this one. The tale of 'healers should only heal' is as old as time and will likely continue to be an argument long after we stop playing. Healing is finite. You cannot restore health when someone is full health. There is a hard limit on how much 'more complexity' can be added to the job without doing it via adding to the damage side of the kit because of not only this simple fact, but also because of how much bigger an impact the change would have on less skilled players. Nobody wants to be the guy who couldn't keep up against the constant pulsing raidwides because 'oops I mismanaged my CDs earlier in the fight'.

In my 10S reclear this week I used Temperance early, so it was not up for Harrowing Hell. We had GNB and DRK (PF) so no mit from either tank beyond Reprisal. My mistake there, in week 1 gear, would have killed us. That one single misclick. Compared to that, 'oops I forgot to use my Miasma DOT for a total of 33 seconds over the course of this 10 minute fight' is absolutely not going to be the issue. Your insistence on keeping one healer exactly as it is for... whatever personal attachment you have to this exact format for healers, is blinding you

I'm a BIT confused. Do you not know the difference between GCD heals and "damage buttons"?

Yes, I know the difference. Bit patronizing to ask such a thing, no? Especially when you're fully aware of what content each of us regularly partakes in

If you don't understand the difference between someone asking for more GCD healing and someone asking for more DPS GCD buttons, I'm not sure you can stand in this conversation.

Yes, I understand the difference. The issue is that one of these two is going to cause a lot more issues at the low-end of the skill bellcurve than the other, by a significant amount. The only way to prevent 'more HPS needed' from screwing casual players is to have that change scale in 'magnitude of change' based on the content. And if the 'solution' only affects higher-end content, then it's not a solution. The issue of 'veteran healers find EX roulette kinda drab' is not solved if EX roulette is purposely exempted from the changes, so as to prevent the casual players from getting suddenly filtered by content they previously were able to clear.

By contrast, if said casual player completely ignores their 2 extra DOTs added to SCH, they do not suddenly cause wipes in Aetherfont, because the 'DPS checks' in EX roulettes (eg Cagnazzo charging his tidal wave) are so lax you could get a drink from the fridge, come back, and still beat the check with plenty of time to spare. Thus, with tuning to make sure that the potency gain of 'doing the optimal rotation' is not as high, to keep the output of the skill floor and ceiling close, such a change would 'cause enrages' only in super-high end content like Week 1 Savage and Ultimate. And that's a maybe, depending on fight tuning. This tier's enrage tuning was low enough that you could get away with quite a few things you normally shouldn't.

If you don't understand the simple facts of encounter/fight design, or just game design in general, I'm not sure you can stand in this conversation either. Feel free to continue suggesting 'fixes' that create more problems than they solve though. It gives me something to weave between my Glare casts

No my dear. You are. I've already shown you a great solution, but it's not good enough.

Which solution? The '4 healers' thing where one healer has to be left exactly as it is for 'the people who like the current gameplay' (despite said logic not being a factor in the decision to bring this gameplay on the healers going into SHB)? Or the WHM idea specifically, which I have said I would be okay with? I have doubts about how long it'd stay 'satisfying' given how 'static' the rotation would be, but I've said I'd at least try it. More than can be said for you with like, any proposed change to WHM's damage rotation. Think about it. If the line 'think about the people who enjoy the current gameplay' held water, SE would have used it as reasoning to leave the SB healers in their slightly more complex forms, and add a new healer that had this EW gameplay. Then everyone would have likely trash talked the 'new design' for being so dead-on-arrival stale.

You want one healer to remain as is, for the people 'who like the current gameplay'. So, in terms of damage GCDs, what if we have AST stay as it currently is, and change the other three? WHM SCH SGE all get more damage buttons, AST gets it's rework to make it less clunky to play (presumably card changes again), but keeps it's current GCD gameplay of Malefic and 2 Combusts a minute. This fulfills the '4 healers' thing you keep asking for, doesn't it? If AST got it's APM distribution reorganized to be more 'consistent' instead of being a doubleweave nightmare in 2min windows, and more focus on buffing for it's RDPS contribution instead of Malefics, wouldn't that make AST's design more suited for someone who doesn't want to have a complex damage rotation? Maybe that's an option worth looking into, though of course, some (sorry Skel) would not be a fan of AST being the 'left behind' one, but that's true regardless of which one gets left behind, hence the solution should be 'don't leave any behind, just have the 'extra optimiziation stuff' be optional'. Consider these extra suggested buttons as a speedrunning technique like BLJs. You don't have to BLJ to get up the staircase.

Even better, since you're so insistent on trying to find ways to keep from adding new buttons, my desired rework for AST's cards would not only keep the button count from increasing, it'd actually go down by one. If Minor and Major Arcana both auto-draw when the CD is up, then we'd only need the play button. Minor already turns into it's Play equivalent, so we'd be able to prune 'Draw' and save a button that AST can then use on something else. Maybe another AOE healing OGCD with a 60s CD, I don't think it's got enough of those yet right /s

Also, using 'no u' in 2023 is an interesting move. What 'windmill' am I tilting at?

The buttons are there, it's more an argument of adjusting how frequently they're used.

And yet, one of your biggest gripes with what I've suggested for WHM is that 'player would have to use Dia 5 times a minute instead of 2'.

I've already answered most of this and rebutted it. And frankly unless you're going to properly read what I've said numerous times, I'm done with you.

Unsurprising he's not reading your post, given that he appears to be not reading quotes of his own posts either (or he is and just doesn't realize what he said in them)

[ForsakenRoe]

YES YES YES thank you. It bothers me so much that people try to sweet-talk this absolute homogenization with "but what if my job was not meta?" SO WHAT, you can freely switch the jobs in this game. If someone refuses to do so because they want to play pretty flower WHM then thats on them and the game should make it clear that they dont get to do certain content then.

I wouldn't agree with 'block player out of content for playing the 'wrong' job', that's a bit far. Rather, if there's any encounters that heavily favour one job's kit over another, having the other job have a moment of it's own to shine too in the same fight. So, in P3S where AST could delete a mechanic with Macrocosmos, WHM should have been given a mechanic where AST has a bit of a rougher time to solve it, and WHM can solve it effortlessly. Fountain of Fire, with a couple of minor adjustments, could have been so much better for WHM than other healers, by really making Lilybell's remote-healing effect be pronounced, but AST didn't mind that mechanic either because Earthly Star exists. When WHM's whole kit is just 'it has a lot of burst healing', it's hard to design a situation in which it can excel uniquely, because AST is also capable of pumping out a lot of healing when it needs to

Or need to give healers I suggest DPS wise 2 single Target ability and I aoe ability a DOT to maintain and a proc (can be aoe or single depending on class) this gives him a dots up key a one two rotation that can sometimes lead into a three and a healing. I'm not saying it has to be competitive with like Black mage but at least something to do.

The only people saying anything about 'making it like Black Mage' are those who want zero changes, and seem to be trying to poison the well on the topic by exaggerating what the pro-changes people want. We don't want to make the jobs have some insurmountable barrier to entry, we just want them to have 'more than they currently have'. Even what you've asked for here is more than what some of us have asked for, if that can be believed