I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Sebazy]

How come nobody ever asks for actual support gcds and utility spells or debuffs lol, it’s always either ‘pure heal’ or ‘pure damage with ogcd healing’

Uh, I’ve been asking for them repeatedly pls =(

[Aword3213]

Theirs only so much "healing" spells you can add really thats the issue.
Fights are also just not designed for healers to heal most of the time, so they would also need to change that, I think having Proc based attacks on healer would add more to look out for.

Don't get me wrong I want healers and tanks to actually have more impact and importance in their support tools even in casual content, instead of making them plainly green/blue DPS only. But that will likely not change unless fight design changes.

I understand that and I agree with you. I wish SE could revamp and rework our healing toolkit as a whole and make healing/support asepct of the toolkit more interactive and interesting.

I know it's very unlikely for SE to do so, but the same could be said about the requset for more dps options. According to healer subforums, they have been asking for more dps options for years. It didn't get us anywhere. If anything, the statement from Yoshi-P during the Endwalker interview only enforced his stance of "no dps for healers"

I'm not averse to more dps buttons for healers though. I just prefer having a gameply that focus more on utility and healing to doing dps.

There have already been some comments regarding this, I would just add that I find our healing toolkit to be bloated for our current game design. If DPS options (note- again there is this concern about "complex" DPS rotations- which is coming out of nowhere) were added AND some changes were added to encounters that required us to use our support and healing in more interesting ways and not just dodge mechanics, that would definitely get my vote.

It's not coming out of nowhere though. I didn't mention "complex dps rotation" with the intent to make a strawman. It's in the title of this very thread.

Yes, our healing toolkits are bloated. To make matters worse, non healer roles are also capable of contributing lots of healing.

How come nobody ever asks for actual support gcds and utility spells or debuffs lol, it’s always either ‘pure heal’ or ‘pure damage with ogcd healing’

Yes, more support GCDs. New skills, regardless of healing or dps, coming in the form of oGCD still results in 11111 gameplay.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Maybe they should gut healing ogcds, make gcd healing a required thing again, and make healing actually you know, fun.



Making healers dps is the same mistake they made with tanks. They need to redo the way combat is to make tanks actually do tank things and not just be dps with defense.

[Renathras]

We don't need much, just a couple of small, focused changes is enough to spice things up. For example, for the damage side of things, all I would ask for WHM is to reduce Dia's duration to 12s (because 30s feels stupid), and to add a new Water/Banish GCD with a 15s CD. That's all. That's not going to suddenly make WHM gigabrain to play, you could even make a macro to auto-use Banish if it's ready and Glare if it isn't, if you wanted.

Just make Dia a direct damage GCD with a 12 sec recast and Assize a GCD with a 15 sec recast. Done.

It's the same effect in practice as what you're asking for, but I doubt you'd find it actually reduces your boredom. Maybe I'd be mistaken...but I feel like the people asking for more damage/engaging play would be complaining again with a few weeks if we just made those changes.

I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex healing

I'm right there with ya.

I understand that and I agree with you...

This whole post is basically spot on. More support and more healing.

Spreadsheet warriors asked for this, so SE obliged them. We used to have more support, more job synergy more Individuality but then someone broke out a calculator, declared a certain job combination suboptimal and a few years later this is the result. Blissful uniformity.
People also bitched about melee uptime so SE made bosses bigger.
Honestly, I don't envy them. No wonder they stopped replying in the EN forums years ago. lol

Bingo.

What I can see happening, which is a concern I've voiced before, about adding an actual rotation or burst phase to healers is that healers will be encouraged to not heal if it will interrupt the rotation or burst phase. No matter how dire the situation you will either be healed at the end of a rotation when it won't interrupt other abilities they use for DPS or not at all during a burst phase so they don't waste GCD or oGCDs if they have them for dps during that time.

It's like RDM if people are dying during their burst phase "I'll raise once I'm done with my burst combo!"

Come on, some comments in this thread are ridiculous.

"Play a dps if you want to dps".

People aren't really saying that so much as they're saying "If you want a complex DPS rotation, play a DPS Job". Which isn't "spouting bs" or "clueless"; even at the most complex (HW), healer Jobs have never had a DPS rotation anything like DPSers. The closest was probably SCH during that timeframe, and it kind of broke the game, balance, meta, and had both one healer Job (WHM) and both Casters (BLM and SMN) blacklisted out of PF.

Healers have never been green dps, end of line.

They quite literally made tanks' 123 combo no longer able to be broken by their ranged GCD aggro attack and most of the healers heal on the oGCD where they can weave their combo.

I do think this was a gamechanger. Though it would be a requirement. RDM doesn't have this during their melee combo, btw.

Then healer isn't the role for you,
- playing the wrong role is boring...

I'm bored when i play dps..
but that doesn't mean/make dps jobs = bad.

Agreed.

People that insist DPS are "so fun" no matter the content, I have to wonder what they're seeing in it. I don't derive any pleasure or joy from playing a DPS Job. It's my least played role for that reason. "Perfect opener...yawn..."

Whenever I say this, I get attacked as "How DARE you suggest we aren't 'real healers!!!'", which, amusingly, is an argument I've never actually made and you're doing it here more than I ever have or would.

Hell, when I suggest that they add a fourth role for Support, they also take it as some kind of personal insult, even after I've said myself even I'd like to play a Support role Job sometime if they made it a serious fourth role. I love being supporty on RDM or SMN, for example.

I think the point is that playing a healer is boring on its own merits – that between job design and encounter design and gearing, something is lacking. Which of those should change or be fixed, if any, is the question.

I agree to the point that I agree encounter design (and gearing) is the problem.

If Yoshi-P wasn't a tired old man, he might consider making healers a buff/debuff class instead (a la FF13).

Just for clarity:

FF13 had Synergist (buff), Saboteur (debuff), and Medic (healer). FF14's healers are like Medic, with a touch of Synergist in some cases, but those were three different classes. That's like asking why Casters don't all have Melee abilities like Ravagers (Flamestrike and such), or why all Melee don't have Caster spells (Commandos used Ruin and Ruinaga). In fact, FF13 is where the spells Ruin and Ruinega came from, so if anything, it should dominate the discussion for the use of those spells...

lol. I thought the thread's title was familiar. Previously.

Some people...are weird.

Return Miasma, Miasma II, Shadow Flare, Quickened Aetherflow and Bane to Scholar, Yoshi-P.
That is all.

Not to be snarky and being totally genuine: That's the "4 Healers Model". In fact, that's an even more narrow version of it. Maybe you should join me in championing it in the Healer forum?

I fully agree, no more complex DPS rotations. Healers are not DPS mains.

...and...

Maybe they should gut healing ogcds, make gcd healing a required thing again, and make healing actually you know, fun.



Making healers dps is the same mistake they made with tanks. They need to redo the way combat is to make tanks actually do tank things and not just be dps with defense.

Agreed. And that's what is the point people seem to not want to accept.

We have Jobs that have complex DPS rotations. They're called DPS Jobs. There are even three subroles and it's the most diverse set of Jobs in the game, so people that want that have PLENTY of options to do so. And bonus points, two of them can Raise, around a third can heal, and all of them have mitigation abilities.

[ASkellington]

I do think this was a gamechanger. Though it would be a requirement. RDM doesn't have this during their melee combo, btw.

RDM doesn't need it. They aren't in melee enough to justify it.

As for it being a requirement, if for some reason the devs aren't smart enough to allow for it to continue after using a GCD heal, I'm pretty sure the forums will quickly inform them.

If not Reddit and Twitter also.

Now whether or not they do it, who can say. I swear the devs hate healers with the passion of a thousand fiery suns.

[ForsakenRoe]

RDM doesn't need it. They aren't in melee enough to justify it.

Come on, if SE pitched 'hey we were thinking of making it so that if you use Swiftcast Verraise mid melee combo (or any of the later steps like Scorch), it doesn't break the combo', who'd say 'no I want to have the combo keep breaking'?

But then again, RDM is an alien job in terms of 'sensible design', considering that using Potions or Sprinting breaks Dualcast still

[Aravell]

But then again, RDM is an alien job in terms of 'sensible design', considering that using Potions or Sprinting breaks Dualcast still

I remember when dualcast made mounting and teleporting instant. That was funny, wish they kept that in.

[ASkellington]

Come on, if SE pitched 'hey we were thinking of making it so that if you use Swiftcast Verraise mid melee combo (or any of the later steps like Scorch), it doesn't break the combo', who'd say 'no I want to have the combo keep breaking'?

No one. But do I think RDM needs it on the same level as tanks did? No. For the sheer simple fact that RDM's primary job is NOT to help rez. You rez when you can. Do you have to rez the exact moment in your melee combo? Chances are 90% of the time no. You usually have 2 healers who have swiftcast Raise each.

Do I think it would be a welcome change? Sure. Do I think RAISE would be the skill to not break? Pfft no.

[Renathras]

IMO don't need a more complex DPS rotation. You need encounters that actually make you play as a healer instead of a green DPS.

We have four healers. They already separated into regen/shields so why not do the same with dps/support. Whm/Sage should have more dps abilities to fill those who want to dps more while Ast/Sch should be the healers that lack the dps rotations but offer more support to the group as a whole.

So you can have a choice. All healers will still be viable in all content but it will kill these kinds threads about some people wanting more dps abilities while others wanting more support abilities.

All the time I say this in the Healer Forum: "4 Healer Model" is what I've come to calling it. We have 4 healer Jobs, let's have them play differently so everyone can find one they like. AST can have more buffs, SCH more DoTs, SGE more damage rotation, WHM be left as it is today. Everyone wins. Hell, WHM and SGE can both stay as they are today, point is, something that gives everyone an option.

They're not mutually exclusive, after all.

They generally are. If they weren't, you guys would support the "4 Healers Model" since it offers both.

It seems like some people are under the misconception that it's an either-or situation,

Because it is an either-or situation. The misconception is from the people thinking it's not.

At the very least, with these Devs and this type of design, it's VERY unlikely they could pull something off that wasn't.

RDM doesn't need it. They aren't in melee enough to justify it.

You say this, but somehow just about every time I go in for my melee combo is when party members (including healers) decide to start dropping like flies.

[AmiableApkallu]

We have 4 healer Jobs, let's have them play differently so everyone can find one they like. AST can have more buffs, SCH more DoTs, SGE more damage rotation, WHM be left as it is today. Everyone wins. Hell, WHM and SGE can both stay as they are today, point is, something that gives everyone an option.

Where's my WHM with a mildly more interesting DPS kit, perhaps along the lines of ForsakenRoe's proposal? Where's my simple, direct HP restoration and regen healer with a DPS kit based on direct damage that isn't godawful boring?