I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[ForsakenRoe]

True, but in the exact same stride it's not fair to the people who want less complexity if their job gains more complexity. The idea with some jobs getting that change and some jobs not getting it is that neither preference is entirely ignored.

long response

Which is why the solution should not be 'leave one exactly as it is', but 'balance the extra complexity for one of the healers in such a way that it is mostly ignoreable for those who don't want to interact with it'. Look at it this way, if we have only Dia and Glare for the majority of our GCDs, then any movement that costs us a Glare is punished even harder, because that's the majority of our damage: Glare. Dia doesn't need to be 2.3ish Glare's worth of damage, it being that high just makes missing ticks of it (due to being bad at DOT management for example) more punishing. It could be 450p total instead of 715 with the missing potency moved elsewhere in the kit. But because SE has removed so much of our kit now, all of the potency has to be forced into the few buttons we have left.

Besides that, the 'leave one exactly as it is' has been argued to death already. For my part, my reasoning for why it's not a great idea is twofold: one, the job that usually gets thrown out there as 'the one to leave alone', WHM, previously did have more buttons than currently. 'Keep it as it is, for those who enjoy the current gameplay' didn't seem to matter going into SHB, so I equally don't see it as a reason that applies now, at least, no more than it should have back then. Secondly, 'keeping one simple for those who like simpler healer design' does not have to directly translate to 'keep it exactly as it is, with zero changes at all'. We already know that SE will add stuff for the expansion, so that alone will cause 'changes to the job', so that falls flat IMO. I would agree that there should be a spectrum of 'complexities', going WHM>SGE>>>SCH>>AST probably, but that spectrum does not necessitate WHM stays exactly where it is. I made a chart a while back, here is a retrofitted version to illustrate what I mean:

This is something along the lines of what I'd like to see for each job's complexity. Green is 'complexity of getting your healing out', red is 'complexity of dealing damage, either by direct skills or buffing allies', and gold is 'the absolute theoretical maximum complexity, which you'd run into if you were aiming to get rank 1 parses'. The reason for the SGE 'gold bar' being so long is because I would like to see it's 'damage>healing' identity properly realized, so optimizing that would theoretically be quite technical. Bearing in mind that the DPS classes, not shown on this chart, would have their bars fall anywhere between the 4th and final lines (with BLM probably having it's 'gold bar' going off the side of the chart), I'd say the proposed complexity totals for healers, even AST, is quite respectful of casuals and of the players that the 'one needs to stay the same' intends to benefit.

As the chart shows, I would like to have WHM's healing AND it's damage both be simple and easy to execute, as it is the case now. But I would also like for there to be a bit of optional depth, wherein optimizing your healing and damage adds up to a complexity total larger than the sum of it's parts. This would not affect it's simple 'easy to get into' nature for casuals, just be an extra minigame for the hardcore optimizers to mess with. The minigame of 'use Lilies to prep Misery for raidbuffs, but still make sure to use them in good places for healing' is a good example of one of these optional optimizations

As Skellington put, and I have mentioned elsewhere: I am a good example of why this idea (keep one as is) would not work well. I want to have more complexity in my healing downtime, to keep me more engaged in lower difficulty content. Doesn't matter how good I get at the game, EX roulette is still the fastest way to cap my tomes. So, I have an alt I use to reclear Savage fights with a friend, so she can 'skip' her static to the later fights they want to do (because they no longer need gear from earlier ones). This alt has one class levelled. For the sake of the example, let's say it's WHM. I do not believe that watching the other 3 healers, that my alt does not have levelled, getting more complexity to their downtime damage rotations while WHM stays exactly where it is, is going to feel good. Doubly so, when people suggest that 'if you want more complexity, play one of the other healers'. It takes time to level another job to max, I don't believe that telling someone they have to grind another job to max is a 'solution'. It's like if DRK was dying too much in dungeons because Dark Mind only affects Magic damage, and the suggested solution is 'level another tank'. Maybe I like WHM's aesthetics, or it's healing-side gameplay, or my personal reason, 'I really do not want to have to do the AST opener over and over while progging because it makes my hands hurt', but whatever my reason, I'm apparently going to be told 'nope, it's gotta stay as is, play another job'. Compared to just making all four healers have extra complexity, and said extra complexity be optional, I just don't see how it's a valid solution.

Besides, if someone's going to be a melt and complain that 'healer didn't do their optimal rotation in Aetherfont', report them. But also, if they're going to get whiny because a hypothetical reworked SCH that has 3 DOTs of staggered duration (30/24/15 for example) forgot to refresh 1 or 2 of their their DOTs for a couple of ticks (movement for example), then I'd expect they'd also be whiny about the SCH in the current design missing their one DOT for a few ticks. Doubly so in fact, because 'it's easier to refresh one DOT than three' or something. Point is, if someone's gonna be a dick, it's not going to be made less likely or more likely to occur based on job design. The healers could have passive 'you deal 100p damage to any enemy you're within 10 yards of' and they'd be complaining if you ran out of range to do a mechanic, y'know?

damn took so long to type that like 3 people already said what I wanted to

[LilimoLimomo]

Which is why the solution should not be 'leave one exactly as it is', but 'balance the extra complexity for one of the healers in such a way that it is mostly ignoreable for those who don't want to interact with it'. Look at it this way, if we have only Dia and Glare for the majority of our GCDs, then any movement that costs us a Glare is punished even harder, because that's the majority of our damage: Glare. Dia doesn't need to be 2.3ish Glare's worth of damage, it being that high just makes missing ticks of it (due to being bad at DOT management for example) more punishing. It could be 450p total instead of 715 with the missing potency moved elsewhere in the kit. But because SE has removed so much of our kit now, all of the potency has to be forced into the few buttons we have left.

I've read this a few times, and I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I see a lot of data, but what's the conclusion you're trying to build to, and how is it connected to those values?

We already know that SE will add stuff for the expansion, so that alone will cause 'changes to the job', so that falls flat IMO.

It's not about changing nothing about the job, it's about not making additions to the DPS rotation. Which isn't uncommon for healer jobs. Off the top of my head, WHM didn't get any additional DPS buttons in Endwalker, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was the same in Dawntrail.

one, the job that usually gets thrown out there as 'the one to leave alone',

To be clear, it's not explicitly about leaving it the same as much as it's about having a simpler option. And recently, Summoner was made much simpler and is a common class to see played. I think it's a great model of how you can have both simpler and more complex classes in the same game serving different parts of your audience.

As Skellington put, and I have mentioned elsewhere: I am a good example of why this idea (keep one as is) would not work well. I want to have more complexity in my healing downtime, to keep me more engaged in lower difficulty content. Doesn't matter how good I get at the game, EX roulette is still the fastest way to cap my tomes. So, I have an alt I use to reclear Savage fights with a friend, so she can 'skip' her static to the later fights they want to do (because they no longer need gear from earlier ones). This alt has one class levelled. For the sake of the example, let's say it's WHM. I do not believe that watching the other 3 healers, that my alt does not have levelled, getting more complexity to their downtime damage rotations while WHM stays exactly where it is, is going to feel good. Doubly so, when people suggest that 'if you want more complexity, play one of the other healers'. It takes time to level another job to max, I don't believe that telling someone they have to grind another job to max is a 'solution'.

I agree wholeheartedly that it's not ideal. What I'm trying to say is that offering one class that does what you want is a better solution than offering you no classes that do what you want. Nobody is going to get everything they want. And if they do, it will be at the expense of other players. That's not my kind of solution.

I mean, let's put the shoe on the other foot. Given two choices, which would you prefer:

1. All healers stay basically exactly the same as they are now in Dawntrail; there are new abilities, and they're all new ways to heal that don't shift the game one way or the other.

2. Two of the healing classes (including your healing main) are the same as what's written in 1, but the other two healing classes get all the changes you personally have wanted to see...they're just not in your current main.

Which would you prefer, and why?

[ASkellington]

To be clear, it's not explicitly about leaving it the same as much as it's about having a simpler option. And recently, Summoner was made much simpler and is a common class to see played. I think it's a great model of how you can have both simpler and more complex classes in the same game serving different parts of your audience.

Here's where I think you're not understanding. Ignoring the backlash SMN got, you are right that the Caster role is diverse in complexity.

The problem is that said complexity doesn't not equal 2 buttons. SMN still has a simple rotation despite how many buttons you may need to press.

"Well SMN is a DPS" I hear you say. This is why I made the comparison between WAR and GNB. GNB has much more complexity to its rotation in comparison to WAR. It can still do the basic job of tanking as most of the buttons they press to mitigate are role actions, and the ones that differ, don't differ too much.

Healers can have a similar model where in they have a similar healing kit (as they do now) with minor differences with varying degrees of DPS complexity that isn't just primarily a DoT and a Nuke. So why then are we forced to just have 1 or 2 healers with 2 DPS buttons when it works for tanks just fine?

[LilimoLimomo]

Here's where I think you're not understanding. Ignoring the backlash SMN got, you are right that the Caster role is diverse in complexity.

The problem is that said complexity doesn't not equal 2 buttons. SMN still has a simple rotation despite how many buttons you may need to press.

"Well SMN is a DPS" I hear you say. This is why I made the comparison between WAR and GNB. GNB has much more complexity to its rotation in comparison to WAR. It can still do the basic job of tanking as most of the buttons they press to mitigate are role actions, and the ones that differ, don't differ too much.

Healers can have a similar model where in they have a similar healing kit (as they do now) with minor differences with varying degrees of DPS complexity that isn't just primarily a DoT and a Nuke. So why then are we forced to just have 1 or 2 healers with 2 DPS buttons when it works for tanks just fine?

I mean, to be clear, I don't make any decisions about the actual design of this game. I'm not forcing anything on anyone. I'm simply talking about my ideals for the game's design, and that ideal is that as much as is possible within the limited scope of the game, I'd like everyone to have a class that they can comfortably play that matches their preferences and needs. I know it's never going to be perfect. Nobody is going to get exactly what they want. In that hypothetical vision, some people might have to choose between cards and more complex DPS. That's not a fun choice to make. I just think it's preferable to choosing between (type of DPS you dislike) and nothing.

I get the impression that the main thing we have different perspectives on is whether more than 2 DPS buttons is too much for some people. So I'll simply say this: if I'm wrong and it's not too much for anyone, then it's not something I'm opposed to.

[ForsakenRoe]

I've read this a few times, and I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I see a lot of data, but what's the conclusion you're trying to build to, and how is it connected to those values?

Off the top of my head, WHM didn't get any additional DPS buttons in Endwalker, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was the same in Dawntrail.

To be clear, it's not explicitly about leaving it the same as much as it's about having a simpler option. And recently, Summoner was made much simpler and is a common class to see played.

I agree wholeheartedly that it's not ideal. What I'm trying to say is that offering one class that does what you want is a better solution than offering you no classes that do what you want. Nobody is going to get everything they want. And if they do, it will be at the expense of other players. That's not my kind of solution.

I mean, let's put the shoe on the other foot. Given two choices, which would you prefer:

- The more things we take out of the kit, the more lifting the remaining things have to do to compensate and keep our potency output the same. As an example, if they removed Dia because 'some people cannot manage DOT timers', that 1430p per minute has to come from somewhere else in the kit. So Glare would likely be bumped up by 20 or 30 potency, and thus missing a Glare cast is now 'more punishing' in terms of damage lost because of the missed cast, compared to the time where Dia still existed. The same applies with other things that have been removed in times gone by

- Wouldn't surprise me either. But it's probably not a coincidence that these kinds of complaints started popping up in SHB, and not in SB

- Yes, and most people who suggest WHM getting any additional complexity make sure to respect the idea that it should be 'the simple one'. We just disagree with the premise that 'it being simple = it does not change at all'. Additionally, look at how many people complain about how they miss old SMN and it's complexity. I imagine at least one of the players of Old SMN was forced to level a new job because they didn't like what had happened to SMN

- Again, 'additional optional complexity' does not need to mean 'suddenly the class is unrecognizeable'. For my part, my suggestion for WHM is to rescale Dia to 12s instead of 30s, and to have a 15s CD GCD that is Water themed. Everything else for 'damage optimization' comes from 'put the damage refund moves inside raidbuffs for a tiny gain'. Like we do with Misery already. Beyond that, I also suggest like 3 or 4 different healing tools, mitigation tools, and even bringing back lower level versions of things, like Divine Seal > Temperance. If anyone were to play my design for WHM and think 'I can't keep up with pressing this new Water move on CD' then they can just... not press it on CD. I had listed it as being 40p more than the current Stone/Glare you have. So over one minute, you lose 160p for ignoring the button entirely. For reference, Glare is currently 310p. If anyone wants to get whiny about 'why is the WHM not using Water their damage sucks' over 160p a minute, in an EX roulette or 24man especially??? I'd just feel sad for them, with all the problems and injustices of the world and THAT is the thing they choose to get angry about