Originally Posted by
Katish
I think people recommend the standard 1-2-3 without any pizzazz because it's easy to implement
Right, but I'd argue that readding Fluid Aura (which still exists in the game files), swapping it from 'ability' to 'spell' so it's a GCD, and then bumping it's potency to be <current stone/glare potency + 30> would also be 'easy to implement', and would be a more interesting way to solve the issue. 123 123 123 ad nauseam is going to have it's novelty wear off pretty fast, at which point it'll just feel like the current 1111111 issue. But having things with standalone timers like above, allows for more design room. Maybe the CD on Fluid Aura/Water can be lowered by a proc so you use it more often. Maybe it has AOE falloff damage so it's useable in AOE too. Maybe it's got some additional effect tied to it that means you'd want to use it for more than just damage, ie it also heals around you for 100p.
123 is the thing some people jump to because it's something other jobs have, and healers do not. It's the first thing that comes to mind even for me, the difference is that where some go with it, others think 'ok that is an option, but what else is there that could be tried'
Originally Posted by
ChonkGoblinSuprem
Still, adding a 123 rotation is a bad idea. That’s my only point, that a 123 rotation is not the solution to this issue, redesigning the fights so that the healers have to heal is.
On the '123 is not the solution', true and agreed.
In an ideal world, we'd see more damage from encounters, at all levels of gameplay. The issue atm is that we have bosses that stand still autoattacking tanks for like 10 seconds at a time. As an example, the current 'second savage fight' starts out with a raidwide with bleed (which we can address with our many OGCD tools), and a tankbuster that both tanks are meant to share, but often they just invuln instead. Once those are done, and you're moving into the first 'actual mechanic', he's already down 10% of his HP bar. Damage is just too spread out to make healing matter. When the point was raised that healers don't have enough to do, the devs added more damage to each raidwide for the previous tier. And this had a twofold effect: one, it didn't increase the 'healing needed' much, but instead made the fights even more reliant on mitigations. Two, it effectively 'filtered' the players who weren't prepared mentally/skillset-wise for the sudden jump, and so a lot of players quit the role even more. Maybe they came back now, IDK.
Either way, we can look at the previous tier and also see the Extreme Trial at the time, in 6.2, was the complete opposite design: damage came out very quickly, but each raidwide damage instance was actually kind of low damage comparatively. Rather than a raidwide blast of 120% of your HP bar (demanding mit and shields) every 60-90s, it was pulses of, say, 10k at a time leading into a blast of 40k, and this happening every 30-45s instead. This is much better design imo, as, even if the damage total is lower than the 'massive blast' design, the fact that it's more constant damage against the team means that we cannot necessarily just 'kitchen sink' deal with it via OGCDs. We would run out of tools and be forced to use 'actual heals' potentially. If they wanted to increase healing required, or make healers feel like they're 'healing' in Savage etc. then I'd say the way to do it is to look at the design of that specific Extreme. Having more frequent, but lower, damage instances both incentivizes Pure healers (they have a kit more suited to deal with it), while keeping Barrier healers relevant, as even if the damage instances are lower damage, mitigation still helps against them. What we have now is so 'bursty', people sometimes use both SCH and SGE, two barrier healers, to have more mitigation. Because the amount of 'actual healing' that needs to be done is so low, but the amount of 'mitigation required to make the damage non-fatal' is getting ridiculous. The alternative would be to get rid of 'Pure/Barrier healer' and just have 'healer', with WHM and AST getting some mitigation tools of their own, but I doubt SE will backpedal on the split idea so soon (it was only introduced this expansion)
A lot of us don't suggest giving healers more damage moves because we want to focus more on doing damage specifically. I personally am asking for more damage moves because I don't think SE will do 'give us more healing required' correctly. The last time we asked and got it was literal 'monkey's paw' kind of changes. And the point is that lower content (that we still need to do, eg to cap tomes) is not as interesting to people who are very skilled at healers. So, if we raise the healing required in eg Expert Roulette, we potentially shut out people, because they cannot keep up with the new requirements. But with a properly tuned DPS actions addition, the main factor in whether the party fails or not, the healing amount, remains the same, and the 'extra damage tools' are basically superfluous to the average player. They'd be there only for people who want to absolutely push themselves and their job's kit to the limit, for the sake of pushing to the limit, essentially. Potencies can be tuned so that the 'gain' from doing so is less. People who are into optimizing seem to, for the most part, not care much about how big a gain something is, rather, only the fact that 'its a gain'. They'd still use Energy Drain even if it was only 10 potency, because that's 10 potency more than if they didn't use it. Essentially, it's the 'speedrunner option'. Not everyone's a speedrunner. Not everyone's gonna ShineSpark one specific wall in Metroid so they can skip upgrades and get a 0% savefile. But the option is there for those who want to, just as I'd like to see the option be there for those who want to get like 120p more damage per minute against the dungeon bosses, by juggling 3 DOTs instead of the one we have now
I see you have SCH listed as your main class, so here's my suggestion for it: imagine you're in an AOE pull. As it is, you'd spam Art of War. With a suggestion such as mine, you'd have an additional button, Shadowflare, which you'd press once per 15 seconds to drop a puddle under the enemy to deal damage over time to all in the bubble. You don't have to press that new button, just as nobody has to press Art of War currently. In fact, having said 'damage over time effect' means that, even when healing gets hard to keep up with, you've still got a source of damage on the field, so in that regard it'd be better than Art of War
edit:
Originally Posted by
Shurrikhan
Meanwhile, I'm not a fan of heavily RNG-based gameplay, and therefore wouldn't care much for procs and would instead draw from very different examples
Which is why we have varying levels of RNG across the PhysRanged role. DNC is big on procs. BRD has 'some' procs, yeh it's lost some of that flavor over the years but it does still have some. And then MCH is completely static in it's rotation. By that logic, wouldn't it make sense to have AST, who already has some RNG via it's cards, have more RNG via it's cards by doubling down on making the cards 'the job identity', ie by having Minor Arcana do something more than 'it's a heal you didn't need or an OGCD Malefic'? And then WHM would be the zero-procs, zero RNG, static 'MCH rotation' style gameplay.
I agree that for the most part, RNG is not a good thing to have on a healer, especially for healing output (which is why I dislike Minor Arcana), reliability is the key component for healing tools, just as with tanks and mitigation tools. People dislike Dark Mind for that reason, it's 'magic only' aspect makes it unreliable, because you don't know if something's magic or not until it's killed you at least once. So if we instead made it so that, while the end-goal of the RNG-fed gameplay is the same (for example, you deal a total of 300p to the enemy), but the RNG dictates HOW you reach that goal (ie, a buff that increases autoattack speed vs a buff that gives mit and reflects damage, vs a buff that makes spells hit twice), then the 'reliability' factor is met, because the result is always the same, you deal the damage. But the 'react to the thing' gameplay feel can retain the things that give it flavor, and make it unique. Minor Arcana's current Lord of Crowns does not feel unique, beyond the fact that 'sometimes it's a heal instead lmao'. But as above, if the way you deal that 250p is different and requires reacting to, then it would feel better, while still having the same overall effect of 'deals daamge'.
Perfect example of RNG being detrimental to gameplay: Latest BLU update gave Force Field, 50% mit of either Phys damage, or Magic damage. I doubt anyone's going to use it because why would you want to gamble on whether you live or die? Of course, SE is able to address this with dual TBs where one hit is Physical, and one is Magical, but then Diamondback mitigates both for 90% so you might as well use that instead. Unless it's entirely for E12S's TBs? IIRC one was Piercing and one was Magic, but adding a whole magic spell just to address one specific encounter is pretty goofy
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