I was almost in the mood to play FF14 again

[ZiraZ]

Uh oh ChatGPT returned the input and not the output lmao

[Deo14]

Why should I bother going through the forums and YouTube videos I've watched and read over THIS LAST YEAR to find the specific links just for you to mock them and discard them? And the point is, it's not even RELEVANT. The point I was making - which you've since conceded while pretending not to - is that there is not unanimous agreement removing Kaiten was bad. I already proved THAT by pointing out someone in General saying so. Even one person technically breaks unanimity. And by you saying it's just a concept, you even admitted that you know it's not a unanimous position.

So you watched some videos about SAM year ago, even though that you still don't have leveled SAM now? You just listened to some videos, while not even knowing how SAM works, and somehow made a conclusion out of it? You just took the author's opinions, without crosschecking with your own knowledge? That's very gullible behaviour, you should first level SAM, play it long enough to get your own opinions, then look up some theory crafters and see if you agree with them or not.

When it comes to providing sources, I did the same for you when you asked me for the source of those numbers in the "Just Quit" thread few weeks back, then you discarded them. Maybe give me back favour? Nevertheless, it's not for me, it's for your redemption, what kind of image do you think you put when you claim something but don't back it up? Also, I wasn't only one who asked you to prove it:

Genuinely curious, could you quote some of these counters? Or are you saying counters in support of it being a bad idea it was removed? Almost every single discussion regarding kaiten I've seen has been against it's removal, or at least pointing out how its removal does nothing of substance. The few posts/comments I have seen that are for kaiten removal were pretty obvious rage bait.

She was very nice to you, much nicer than you deserve, so why won't you give those links to her?

MEANING I proved my point and you even admitted it while trying to pretend not to.

Who could have possibly guess that from multiple million players, there's more than 0 amount of people who agree with Kaiten removal? Great, what did you prove by it? Are you ready to start actual discussion?

Where did you even get that I said unanimously?

What I said is

[Bunch of nonsense, justifying change that commnuity pretty much unanimously disagrees with, and devs have yet to respond to us, after they specifically asked for feedback]

Can you see the "pretty much" part? So why did you started to rant about some 100%? How can phrase "pretty much unanimously" portray same thing as unanimously by itself?

How about asking our little friend about it?


So you try to go after technicalities just to prove your argument, but you fail even at that.

[Renathras]

So you watched some videos about SAM year ago, even though that you still don't have leveled SAM now?

Would you just actually stick to the discussion?

The discussion was "Is there unanimous opposition to Kaiten being removed?" not "Do only people that know everything about SAM watch videos about SAM?"

Once again, since you seem kinda dense and unable to read:

I WASN'T TALKING TO YOU. THIS IS THE POST I WAS TALKING TO:

So is it stupid that your job, most likely main, got neutered overnight because they woke up crooked? So is it silly that with unanimous complaints, designers and devs have blatantly ignored community feedback? Maybe he's one of the least stupid, maybe.

.

Anyway, it's 100% clear you're talking in bad faith. So let's put that to the proof:

And no, this isn't for me. And it's not for you. It's because Spigg did ask nicely and so I'm giving it to her.

I fully expect you to be incapable of admitting you're wrong, much less apologizing for being a jerk. But as I say, let's test that. Let's see if you're acting in good faith or not as a side-game to me answering Spigg's good faith question:

.

Genuinely curious, could you quote some of these counters? Or are you saying counters in support of it being a bad idea it was removed? Almost every single discussion regarding kaiten I've seen has been against it's removal, or at least pointing out how its removal does nothing of substance. The few posts/comments I have seen that are for kaiten removal were pretty obvious rage bait.

Sorry I missed this. Here are a few:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...t_kaiten_post/

"The solution to this isn't really to obsess even more over Kaiten but to develop the class further in a different direction and rebalance its power budget in a way that gives Midare more room and bigger numbers. This isn't an easy problem to solve but it's one the design team absolutely have to confront because they're painting themselves into a corner with their "just add another big finisher" approach every expansion. Kenki obviously needs a rework since it's currently just the place where SAM's leftover design points gets dumped and if we're looking for a mechanic that would reduce the number of iais, well, Hagakure is right there.

(But in the meantime sure, just give people back Kaiten.)"
[While ending with the same position I have "just give it back for now", this person seems not overly upset Kaiten was removed.]

"I could not bring myself to care about Kaiten. It feels like the entire thing was massively over blown, as is the community is want to do all the time. The only real complaints I could get behind was Auto Crits lowered party syngery and even that that's an issue for parse parties only. I don't take part in parse parties. I am still on p4s.

Saving Kenki to use Kaiten on every Iuijitsu wasn't amazing gameplay for me, nor was it a detriment. It just was. The pull to the Job I found was the core rotation of generating Sen and doing Iuijutsu. Kaiten buffed Midare was nice and felt cool but I care more about how the job functions as a whole. Which Kaiten's removal didn't effect for me.

I agree with the widespread sentiment that Kenki management could do with -something- to make it a little more complex and a little less brain dead. I wouldn't know what that something is though."
[Again, person not disagreeing with Kaiten's removal, and seems to think Kaiten's removal has been overblown by the community.]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ill_be_missed/

"Lets be real, The lost of Kaiten doesn't affect SAM DPS or its job at all. (minus 3 DPS? )

You all just miss the weeb animation for it (I know I do)"
[Personally I dislike ad hominems and name calling, but pretty sure we can add this one to "doesn't disagree with Kaiten removal"]

"Eh, I won't miss it at all, honestly. It wasn't an interesting skill to use."
[In the "wasn't interesting/won't miss" camp.]

"I will be honest I felt like it would be a loss initially, but this week I went back to play SAM some more as its not my main job, and to be honest, after a while I was convinced that it will not really be missed after we get used to it, it was just really unnecessary IMO.

I would go so far and say they could just remove the kenki system altogether and just go more into the Iaijutsu skills, its what I love about SAM after all, kenki just feel tacked into the class."
[inb4 "not a SAM main"; remember the question is do people unanimously disagree with Kaiten's removal]

"You'd think Kaiten was the only thing that was good or fun about Samurai based on the doomsaying around here. All it really was was requiring two button presses to do one attack. The animation was cool, but the effect was boring. I'm also generally against unnecessarily keeping things complicated or difficult for the sake of it and Kaiten didn't even do that very well.

I'm sure this comment will be nuked for going against the hive mind but I think all the potency adjustments and crit changes for Samurai are way more interesting/worrying."
[Another case of "Kaiten wasn't interesting, it being removed is fine"]

"An animation. An ANIMATION. I'm both sides of this most of the time but the doomsaying I'm reading is 90 percent about the animation loss, nothing else. At least you see the design perspective. :thumbsup:"

"I was referring to the WORLD IS OVER kinds of reactions for the ones that are basing that end of the class talk on nothing *but* the loss of an animation, yea?"
[Person calling it "doomsaying" and that 90% of the complaints are about the cosmetics of it, not Kaiten actually being any good/the removal being bad.]

"You aren't being dickish. Those people are being insanely over the top hyperbolic to get internet points. Calling out idiots for being idiots is perfectly fine, and the people who say kaiten was the entire job to them are idiots. And just like you said, anyone that ever argues against it is getting downvoted, that's the definition of a hive mind, alternate opinions aren't allowed. Nothing you said was wrong or mean at all. They just don't like hearing it."
[Pretty sure we can include this in the camp as well.]

"But it is the definition of a hive mind. Don't act like reddit isn't an echo chamber where what gets the most upvotes gets amplified. People are saying the core identity of the class is gone because you don't spin a katana anymore. That's fucking silly."
[Same]

"In this past week the number of people saying Samurai lost its identity is insane. One skill with a cool animation was the identity of the entire job? The job is still essentially the same, it is impossible for the identity to have changed."
[Same]

"As a DRK main who does not miss Dark Arts spam, while I am definitely no SAM main, I do feel like Kaiten was samurai's DA. As you say, useless bloat, two buttons to perform one action and illusion of choice at high levels where every use window is already predetermined. Pruning out this kind of illusionary choices to make in your rotation is only good for the gameplay.

The animation was alright and could be used for something else, but the skill itself I'm not going to miss."
[Same]

"Yeah, honestly losing Kaiten isn't as big a deal as this place as making it out to be, but we've got a karma farm going. The crit and potency changes are actually a bigger deal that "But I lost my sword spinny animation!""
[Same]

"Yep. I think the SAM mains just aren’t use to big changes/action removals that is normal with balancing online games"
[Same]

Don't even have to go to other forums, just read somewhere here that isn't the DPS forum:

Ahh, more spam, lovely.

And no, kaiten can stay dead. What we really need is to Un-nerf setsugekka.

Why? Because I genuinely don't care about Kaiten I was apparently not good at SAM? Is that really what we're going to assume here?

There can be SAM players who were great that want Kaiten back.
There can be SAM players who weren't great that want Kaiten back.
There can be SAM players who were great that DON'T want Kaiten Back.
There can be SAM players who weren't great that DON'T want Kaiten back.

If you need a coping mechanism, go get a coping mechanism but don't assume how good someone was at Samurai back then based on how much they want Kaiten back now. That's a strawman if I've ever seen one.

You can also look at my history on a certain site and see certain numbers were higher with than without. I still don't want it back.

In fact, you can see I did best in 4.x, during Sigma, when sam was arguably the jankiest it's ever been.

My favorite playstyle of it is still 5.x, it was near perfect at the end of 5.5. Yet that wasn't because of kaiten.

They made sam terrible with 6.0, before kaiten was removed, not after. Nerfing setsugekka just to add it back as a 120s CD ability ruined sam.

Because I personally don't play Samurai as much as I play tanks. I never had a problem with playing Samurai before nor after. And as much as that devalues my previous comments, as I am fully aware - there is always the option that whoever you are looking up for their parses has more than one character which you wouldn't know unless they told you. To save you the mystery, I don't.

To the original point though, when I said "I" I meant that as a collective for players who don't miss Kaiten, not "I" myself. The point was to call out the baseless claim that it's a two-camp split between "the good SAMs who want Kaiten back" and "the bad SAMs who don't want Kaiten back". One can be biased for all I care, but this is just a strawman argument.

Look, I get you guys are genuinely mad since 6.1, I well acknowledge this but does every single SAM thread have to turn into a segregation between Kaiten-loving-good-SAMs and Kaiten-not-loving-bad-SAMs? The core of the issue, before as after, is that Samurai Kenki spending has been monotonous. The difference between a Shinten and a Kaiten button press is so minimal, I literally couldn't care less.

Seigan? 50-gauge Guren/Senei? Alternative Kenki spending options that actually do something other than damage that still synergizes with SAM's damage tool kit? Maybe a reduction in base Kenki generation if its generated too much? What about giving Shinten -> Kyuten a sort of synergy? Like:

Shinten -> Next Kyuten has Shinten Potency
Kyuten -> Next Shinten is AOE

But no, it has to always be Kaiten, nothing else.

At this point so do I just so they can stop talking about how much they miss it and go back to complaining about the actual issues SAM has...

Most of the people that were mad over its removal aren't even really that mad about Kaiten itself, they're mad that SAM's rotation has devolved into Shinten spam. Kaiten itself wasn't really a very interesting button, it just offered a different button to press than Shinten. So instead of reimplementing Kaiten, why not design a better ability that uses Kenki? That solves the actual issue at hand while also making SAM more interesting than either pre or post Kaiten removal.

I don't even really disagree with a lot of what you said in this particular post. The devs are terrible at listening to feedback. There were much more deserving targets of getting removed/changed if the reason is button bloat. But at the same time, Kaiten wasn't an interesting button. You chained it with certain abilities in literally every case possible, making it essentially a combo action that you weaved. It should have gotten reworked to be more interesting or replaced by something else. It getting removed with no replacement is the only reason why its removal is a problem other than "I think it looked cool".

Outside of that, I believe Wesk Alber mentioned it in one of his videos, though I can't remember which (maybe the Job poll?). Which...I just found:

https://youtu.be/W5V2xhS8GKs?t=230

"SAM meanwhile: Kaiten was bad and should stay gone. Let the animation come back for next expansion, but the skill needs a different effect or be better tied to how the Job's played. Kaiten has been pointless since the Hagukure change. Hagakure is still good and useful in new way, but it isn't integral to the rotation like it used to be."
...and he goes on a bit as to the why.

Further in the video, around 8:30 - "Are people really THAT angry about Kaiten? A BAD skill that didn't need to exist?" "But seriously though, why such a huge drop for SAM? Other than the removal of cones, it's just a better Job all around. Just, SERIOUSLY PEOPLE! Kaiten was ONE skill, and it actively was equally replaced by nearly the same number of Shintens. Do that for the other Jobs and you just loose APM outright."

There was also a Mr Happy (Mondays with Mr Happy) question a month or so ago where he basically said the same thing, and I think he's fielded Kaiten questions more than once and said the same thing each time.

.

In a nutshell, there's plenty of people saying its removal was no big deal or even a good thing since the ability (to them) brought very little to the Job, many with explanations of why they think so.

Very clearly, opposition to its removal is not unanimous, which is the only claim I've made on that topic thus far.

[Deo14]

Would you just actually stick to the discussion?

The discussion was "Is there unanimous opposition to Kaiten being removed?" not "Do only people that know everything about SAM watch videos about SAM?"

Once again, since you seem kinda dense and unable to read:

I WASN'T TALKING TO YOU. THIS IS THE POST I WAS TALKING TO:

So why were you responding to me about the "unanimous" argument? Why did you give me 5 essays, directed at me? But anyways, we can start discussing the topic since you posted links.

Your first link

Author admitted that he's just level 85, I personally I'm really not a fan of people theory crafting with jobs that they're not familiar enough. This would mean spending at least few hours playing at max level. Either way, his suggestion misses the mark because he disconnected his idea of new Kaiten from Kenki gauge, so we would still have Shinten spam. It would add subjectively weird mechanic to job, but it would not fix the issue. It's also 28% upvoted, so yeah.

For your hand picked comments:

The solution to this isn't really to obsess even more over Kaiten but to develop the class further in a different direction and rebalance its power budget in a way that gives Midare more room and bigger numbers. This isn't an easy problem to solve but it's one the design team absolutely have to confront because they're painting themselves into a corner with their "just add another big finisher" approach every expansion. Kenki obviously needs a rework since it's currently just the place where SAM's leftover design points gets dumped and if we're looking for a mechanic that would reduce the number of iais, well, Hagakure is right there.
This is certainly problem. EW just gave us 2 fancy skills, 1 is AoE version of existing skill and Ogi is pretty disconnected from the kit. It does add meditation stack, but if I remember correctly, EW also removed meditation stack from Tsubame, or other skill which used to give med stack but now it doesn't.

(But in the meantime sure, just give people back Kaiten.)

[While ending with the same position I have "just give it back for now", this person seems not overly upset Kaiten was removed.]

This is certainly problem. EW just gave us 2 fancy skills, 1 is AoE version of existing skill and 2nd is Ogi, which is pretty disconnected from the kit. It does add meditation stack, but if I remember correctly, EW also removed meditation stack from Tsubame, or other skill which used to give med stack but now it doesn't to compensate for it. He has suggestions for reworking Kenki, which I guess is also one of the solution, but considering that Kenki worked better than most gauges when we still had Kaiten, then I really don't think rework is necessary.

I could not bring myself to care about Kaiten. It feels like the entire thing was massively over blown, as is the community is want to do all the time. The only real complaints I could get behind was Auto Crits lowered party syngery and even that that's an issue for parse parties only. I don't take part in parse parties. I am still on p4s.

Saving Kenki to use Kaiten on every Iuijitsu wasn't amazing gameplay for me, nor was it a detriment. It just was. The pull to the Job I found was the core rotation of generating Sen and doing Iuijutsu. Kaiten buffed Midare was nice and felt cool but I care more about how the job functions as a whole. Which Kaiten's removal didn't effect for me.

I agree with the widespread sentiment that Kenki management could do with -something- to make it a little more complex and a little less brain dead. I wouldn't know what that something is though.

[Again, person not disagreeing with Kaiten's removal, and seems to think Kaiten's removal has been overblown by the community.]

I mean, Shinten having 8 CPM is pretty overblown. If people are neutral about Kaiten as a skill, then it comes to their stance on Shinten spam. That -something- that Kenki needs is 2nd frequent spender, which was a role of Kaiten

Your second link

Simply video showcasing Kaiten. 2.8K updoots, 95% rate.

Your chosen comments:

"Lets be real, The lost of Kaiten doesn't affect SAM DPS or its job at all. (minus 3 DPS? )

You all just miss the weeb animation for it (I know I do)"
[Personally I dislike ad hominems and name calling, but pretty sure we can add this one to "doesn't disagree with Kaiten removal"]

"Doesn't affect job at all", yet we do nearly twice as much shinten as we used to. From ~4.5 CPM to ~8.5.

"Eh, I won't miss it at all, honestly. It wasn't an interesting skill to use."
[In the "wasn't interesting/won't miss" camp.]

Feels odd to call specific skill "not interesting" when half the oGCDs in this game are just "Deals X potency, 30s/60s CD".

"I will be honest I felt like it would be a loss initially, but this week I went back to play SAM some more as its not my main job, and to be honest, after a while I was convinced that it will not really be missed after we get used to it, it was just really unnecessary IMO.

I would go so far and say they could just remove the kenki system altogether and just go more into the Iaijutsu skills, its what I love about SAM after all, kenki just feel tacked into the class."
[inb4 "not a SAM main"; remember the question is do people unanimously disagree with Kaiten's removal]

God, SAM player that doesn't like Kenki gauge?

"You'd think Kaiten was the only thing that was good or fun about Samurai based on the doomsaying around here. All it really was was requiring two button presses to do one attack. The animation was cool, but the effect was boring. I'm also generally against unnecessarily keeping things complicated or difficult for the sake of it and Kaiten didn't even do that very well.

I'm sure this comment will be nuked for going against the hive mind but I think all the potency adjustments and crit changes for Samurai are way more interesting/worrying."
[Another case of "Kaiten wasn't interesting, it being removed is fine"]

Question is, how long were they playing new SAM? This post was made at the day patch went live, most comments are probably from first week of the patch. People didn't play it long enough to realize that 18% of your actions is now made out of Shinten.

"An animation. An ANIMATION. I'm both sides of this most of the time but the doomsaying I'm reading is 90 percent about the animation loss, nothing else. At least you see the design perspective. :thumbsup:"

"I was referring to the WORLD IS OVER kinds of reactions for the ones that are basing that end of the class talk on nothing *but* the loss of an animation, yea?"
[Person calling it "doomsaying" and that 90% of the complaints are about the cosmetics of it, not Kaiten actually being any good/the removal being bad.]

Both liking animation and job designs are valid reasons. Again, this post was near the release of patch, most people were only focused on shallow things, because they had no data about new SAM.

"You aren't being dickish. Those people are being insanely over the top hyperbolic to get internet points. Calling out idiots for being idiots is perfectly fine, and the people who say kaiten was the entire job to them are idiots. And just like you said, anyone that ever argues against it is getting downvoted, that's the definition of a hive mind, alternate opinions aren't allowed. Nothing you said was wrong or mean at all. They just don't like hearing it."
[Pretty sure we can include this in the camp as well.]

Mainsub is hivemind, nobody is going to argue against that.

"But it is the definition of a hive mind. Don't act like reddit isn't an echo chamber where what gets the most upvotes gets amplified. People are saying the core identity of the class is gone because you don't spin a katana anymore. That's fucking silly."
[Same]

It's internet, people go into hyperboles. But well, here we are, 1.5 years later, and this topic is still relevant, so it doesn't seem to me that people gave up just because their katana doesn't spin anymore.

"In this past week the number of people saying Samurai lost its identity is insane. One skill with a cool animation was the identity of the entire job? The job is still essentially the same, it is impossible for the identity to have changed."
[Same]

I mean, there was about 22 changes in total.

"As a DRK main who does not miss Dark Arts spam, while I am definitely no SAM main, I do feel like Kaiten was samurai's DA. As you say, useless bloat, two buttons to perform one action and illusion of choice at high levels where every use window is already predetermined. Pruning out this kind of illusionary choices to make in your rotation is only good for the gameplay.

The animation was alright and could be used for something else, but the skill itself I'm not going to miss."
[Same]

If you look at this skill in the bubble, then maybe, problem was that it was tied to gauge, which ended up affecting Shiten CPM, which in turn, is in fact not good for the gameplay

"Yeah, honestly losing Kaiten isn't as big a deal as this place as making it out to be, but we've got a karma farm going. The crit and potency changes are actually a bigger deal that "But I lost my sword spinny animation!""
[Same]

Both are bad. And circle Tenka too.

"Yep. I think the SAM mains just aren’t use to big changes/action removals that is normal with balancing online games"
[Same]

Justifying bad decisions by "other games do it too" is lame

Forum comments:

Ahh, more spam, lovely.
And no, kaiten can stay dead. What we really need is to Un-nerf setsugekka.

Rage bait

Why? Because I genuinely don't care about Kaiten I was apparently not good at SAM? Is that really what we're going to assume here?

There can be SAM players who were great that want Kaiten back.
There can be SAM players who weren't great that want Kaiten back.
There can be SAM players who were great that DON'T want Kaiten Back.
There can be SAM players who weren't great that DON'T want Kaiten back.

If you need a coping mechanism, go get a coping mechanism but don't assume how good someone was at Samurai back then based on how much they want Kaiten back now. That's a strawman if I've ever seen one.

This is just like the unanimous argument. Of course there will be variations of people's opinions, but it's clear that majority of SAM who don't want Kaiten back are pretty bad, or they don't even know what do the skills do, as was recently showcased in this thread by guy who thought Hagakure is useless.

You can also look at my history on a certain site and see certain numbers were higher with than without. I still don't want it back.

In fact, you can see I did best in 4.x, during Sigma, when sam was arguably the jankiest it's ever been.

My favorite playstyle of it is still 5.x, it was near perfect at the end of 5.5. Yet that wasn't because of kaiten.

They made sam terrible with 6.0, before kaiten was removed, not after. Nerfing setsugekka just to add it back as a 120s CD ability ruined sam.

I agree, ShB SAM felt best, but next to that was 6.08. If we can't go back to 5.5, I would at least want to get back to 6.08

Because I personally don't play Samurai as much as I play tanks. I never had a problem with playing Samurai before nor after. And as much as that devalues my previous comments, as I am fully aware - there is always the option that whoever you are looking up for their parses has more than one character which you wouldn't know unless they told you. To save you the mystery, I don't.

To the original point though, when I said "I" I meant that as a collective for players who don't miss Kaiten, not "I" myself. The point was to call out the baseless claim that it's a two-camp split between "the good SAMs who want Kaiten back" and "the bad SAMs who don't want Kaiten back". One can be biased for all I care, but this is just a strawman argument.

He just said same thing again.

That's like saying a DRK player that doesn't want HW DRK back was never really a DRK main. Is Samurai a gatekeeping club now that only cares about people who want Kaiten back and who don't?

Look, I get you guys are genuinely mad since 6.1, I well acknowledge this but does every single SAM thread have to turn into a segregation between Kaiten-loving-good-SAMs and Kaiten-not-loving-bad-SAMs? The core of the issue, before as after, is that Samurai Kenki spending has been monotonous. The difference between a Shinten and a Kaiten button press is so minimal, I literally couldn't care less.

Seigan? 50-gauge Guren/Senei? Alternative Kenki spending options that actually do something other than damage that still synergizes with SAM's damage tool kit? Maybe a reduction in base Kenki generation if its generated too much? What about giving Shinten -> Kyuten a sort of synergy? Like:

Shinten -> Next Kyuten has Shinten Potency
Kyuten -> Next Shinten is AOE

But no, it has to always be Kaiten, nothing else.

Lol what? Monotonous before and after? You spend like very roughly like 40% of Kenki at Kaiten, 55% at Shinten, rest on Senei and others. Now all the Kenki that was meant for Kaiten goes to Shinten, that's extremely monotonous. Needless to say, plenty of gauge are even worse.

At this point so do I just so they can stop talking about how much they miss it and go back to complaining about the actual issues SAM has...

Valid, but at the same time, I assume if people talk about Kaiten, they generally mean whole 6.1 dumpsterfire.

Most of the people that were mad over its removal aren't even really that mad about Kaiten itself, they're mad that SAM's rotation has devolved into Shinten spam. Kaiten itself wasn't really a very interesting button, it just offered a different button to press than Shinten. So instead of reimplementing Kaiten, why not design a better ability that uses Kenki? That solves the actual issue at hand while also making SAM more interesting than either pre or post Kaiten removal.

I responded to this in that thread. Long story short, how? What would be better than Kaiten?

I don't even really disagree with a lot of what you said in this particular post. The devs are terrible at listening to feedback. There were much more deserving targets of getting removed/changed if the reason is button bloat. But at the same time, Kaiten wasn't an interesting button. You chained it with certain abilities in literally every case possible, making it essentially a combo action that you weaved. It should have gotten reworked to be more interesting or replaced by something else. It getting removed with no replacement is the only reason why its removal is a problem other than "I think it looked cool".

Idk, relatively to other skills in this game, Kaiten seemed interesting enough for me.

As for the video:

SAM meanwhile: Kaiten was bad and should stay gone. Let the animation come back for next expansion, but the skill needs a different effect or be better tied to how the Job's played. Kaiten has been pointless since the Hagukure change. Hagakure is still good and useful in new way, but it isn't integral to the rotation like it used to be.

Well, alright, but how about this: How about devs make those changes. Period. They've just removed it without replacement, why? I could understand sentiment that it could be replaced for something better, but this something better is still not in the game, so why can't we have Kaiten while we wait for this something better to be released? How is 8+ CPM Shinten better alternative?

And I would say it was connected to job in good way (in today's standards). As I mentioned previously, Kenki is pretty solid gauge compared to others, a lot of gauges in game are just terrible 0-100, use 50 gauge for skill which does bland damage, or other skill, which also does damage, but it's AoE.

As for Hagakure, I haven't played in SB, so there's not much I can say, but from I saw other people say, they weren't very fond of the Hagakure spam. From what I'm seeing, people were most satisfied with SAM at shadowbringers era.

But seriously though, why such a huge drop for SAM? Other than the removal of cones, it's just a better Job all around. Just, SERIOUSLY PEOPLE! Kaiten was ONE skill, and it actively was equally replaced by nearly the same number of Shintens. Do that for the other Jobs and you just loose APM outright.

I mean, if it's bad skill, why did it seems like that according to this poll, people did indeed drop it? Sounds like video author is heavily prejudiced to some SB SAM. Even if it was terribly designed, it should stay in the game when it's clear that people like it. I'm personally surprised that there was noticable drop off, I still do play SAM despite Shinten spam. I don't get how he can say in straight face that it was replaced by nearly equally same number of Shinten. Like yeah, exactly, that's the problem.

[Caldra]

Just wanted to say, that I played SAM at 6.0 with kaiten and the job felt awesome!
After they removed kaiten and made changes to the crits, I dropped the job.

Now after one and a half years, I forgot the muscle memory of kaiten and started playing samurai again and it feels fine! It's fun again!

Though, I do hope, that they introduce another essential kenki spender in 7.0

[Spigg]

Thanks for the reply, and so many quotes! Interestingly, most of these quotes seem much more apathetic (not understanding why so many SAMs are soiling the bed over the loss of kaiten) than they are actually in full blown agreement that the current state of samurai is okay(Though there certainly are some that think that way).

"The solution to this isn't really to obsess even more over Kaiten but to develop the class further in a different direction and rebalance its power budget in a way that gives Midare more room and bigger numbers. This isn't an easy problem to solve but it's one the design team absolutely have to confront because they're painting themselves into a corner with their "just add another big finisher" approach every expansion. Kenki obviously needs a rework since it's currently just the place where SAM's leftover design points gets dumped and if we're looking for a mechanic that would reduce the number of iais, well, Hagakure is right there.

(But in the meantime sure, just give people back Kaiten.)"

This. This is basically the entirety of the conversation. The insult isn't that they removed kaiten, but did nothing to the job to make up for it. Sure, some people feel that the ability was ultimately pointless, but others miss it. If it was so inconsequential, what was the point of removing it?

"In this past week the number of people saying Samurai lost its identity is insane. One skill with a cool animation was the identity of the entire job? The job is still essentially the same, it is impossible for the identity to have changed."

I don't even entirely disagree with this comment. Overall, the core of Samurai is still intact and its gameplay is largely unchanged. But, as many of the comments and sources you have listed have pointed out, samurai has HAD issues for a while now(The youtube link you posted at the bottom said it well). This is a corner that the designers have backed themselves into, and they chose the laziest way to change the class, while not even solving the problems that had encouraged change in the first place. Something about samurai and the way it manages kenki HAS needed to change, but why they chose this option and this specific time is bewildering to me.

Not to mention, it is extremely annoying how the devs of ff14 pride themselves as being communicative with the community, but have failed to have a proper discussion to finally put the issue to rest. Honestly? The likelihood that any of the people asking for changes to Sam having any effect is close to nonexistent. SE has made their choice and it is to stay quiet. I only support these threads because I hope to create enough noise that "Staying quiet" sounds like a bad choice to them in the future. Samurai will [LIKELY] have a massive rework come 7.0, and that will be that. Whether or not they pull off a proper rework is beyond me.

[Spigg]

As for the video:

Well, alright, but how about this: How about devs make those changes. Period. They've just removed it without replacement, why? I could understand sentiment that it could be replaced for something better, but this something better is still not in the game, so why can't we have Kaiten while we wait for this something better to be released? How is 8+ CPM Shinten better alternative?

And I would say it was connected to job in good way (in today's standards). As I mentioned previously, Kenki is pretty solid gauge compared to others, a lot of gauges in game are just terrible 0-100, use 50 gauge for skill which does bland damage, or other skill, which also does damage, but it's AoE.

As for Hagakure, I haven't played in SB, so there's not much I can say, but from I saw other people say, they weren't very fond of the Hagakure spam. From what I'm seeing, people were most satisfied with SAM at shadowbringers era.

I was going to comment on this in the post above, but it didn't fit lol. 100% agree that the way most classes handle gauge is stupid beyond belief. WAR, DRK, NIN, and RPR all do this, and it would be nice if some of them used their gauge beyond simple attacks(Though I think WAR and RPR are fine as is, it's okay to have some classes that work like this). These classes do have other cds that use their gauge, but they also have abilities that refill their gauge/give them the ability for free around their burst... so what is the point of any attempt at gauge management? Samurai has always been a resource management job to me... having to make sure their sen and kenki bars line up to secure optimal damage... with the changes to kaiten, the kenki gauge is just for shinten, and most of the resource management feels lost.

[Renathras]

So why were you responding to me about the "unanimous" argument?

I WASN'T!!!!!!!

The reason I replied to your 5 rants was because you quoted me and accused me of misrepresenting the argument/moving the goalposts:

Wow, why does this not surprise me.

Here, some research for you, so you can get yourself informed:
...
These are just random examples, I recommend you looking around the internet to get better idea of the situation. I'm looking forward to your reply where you'll actually give me link to those "guide makers" and "theory crafters" who are fine with it, even though I'm very skeptical if job design should be directed by someone who's hobby is min-maxing everything, because that often means minimizing fun in the process.
...
I highly recommend you reading my thread, I've read through many of your essays, do me a favour and read mine.

This post. This was you replying to me, not me replying to you. Then you had the audacity to post this:

Could you start engaging discussions with actual arguments, instead of moving goalposts wherever you desire with stuff like ""Akshually, I meant that 100% of people doesn't agree with it". Didn't we already clarified in the healer thread that it is given that no community ever 100% agrees with anything?

You keep moving the goalposts even now.

YOU butted into a conversation other people were having, and from your very first post insulted me. THAT was how we got on this tangent because YOU wanted to attack me because you still feel slighted over past discussions in other threads in other forums.

.

And then, as I said you would, you are in total bad faith.

The request and what I stated was people didn't all agree removing Kaiten was bad. It wasn't anything about experience, how much they played, what they mained, etc.

You can argue those are pertinent points to consider, but you CANNOT argue that was the topic or that was the claim I made and presented.

The claim wasn't if they are all correct - indeed, THESE weren't the comments I was referring to (as I said, I don't keep links on Kaiten stuff because Kaiten doesn't live rent-free in my head like it does yours) - these were things that were found within 5 minutes of googling, showing how widespread the non-unanimous dissent is.

You then, in bad faith, just as I said you would, didn't go "Oh, Ren's right, there's disagreement."

No no no no no; that would be you as a good faith mature adult admitting you were wrong.

Instead, you tried to contest them. I'm not going to defend their remarks because THAT WAS NOT THE ARGUMENT. You're moving the goalposts. AGAIN.

.

I provided links proving what you asked of me and the claim I made, end of story. You can admit that or refuse to admit that. If you refuse to admit that, that's pretty damning on you. But if THAT'S the kind of obsessed lunatic you want to be, that's on you.

I will say yet again that the really messed up part is: I'M SUPPORTING KAITEN BEING GIVEN BACK TO YOU.

If this is how you treat your friends/allies - people who are trying to work with and support you - I can see why you don't have any.

.

Thanks for the reply, and so many quotes!

You're very welcome.

As I said, not everyone was on board with Kaiten's removal being bad or wanting it back, and many people felt it was weird folks were so obsessive over it. Several (Wesk and Happy among them) thought Kaiten was just a bad ability and Alber seems to think that the Job was better once it was removed.

I do agree it was a bad way to change it, which is why I'm in favor of either Kaiten being returned or something else in its place, like AwesomeJr in General here said.

The only claim I made here was that it's not unanimous that everyone wants it back/everyone thought it's removal was bad. No more and no less.

I was going to comment on this in the post above, but it didn't fit lol.

As much as people get on to me for it, we can only make 20 posts here per day...and I'm not sure what time zone this is (it's like Alaska time or something? I dunno...), so if you Edit your post, you can make it longer if you need to make some additions.

For my part, I wish they'd get over the idea "every Job needs a Job gauge". I liked NIN before Ninki, for example. I don't feel Ninki really adds anything to the Job and it's more annoying than it is useful. In SB, they gave WHM Lilies (the worst incarnation of Lilies and of WHM in FFXIV's total history) because "every Job needs one". Same with SCH and Faerie gauge. Aetherpact could just be a 60 sec CD and get rid of the gauge and literally nothing of value would be lost. Ninki is one of those "there to be there" gauges. On the other hand, I really like the Job up to level 60. I really like Ninjutsu, Houton as an upkeep buff is kind of fun and speeds up the GCD to have a more fast paced feel with the rogue/ninja feeling of agile fighter, etc. I even like Raijin as a sort of combo action on the end of the Raiton Ninjutsu and think doing more stuff like that that connects with Ninjutsus would be cool (kind of a pseudo-Continuation thing).

But then there's Ninki just...there. It makes the burst slightly more busy and the downtime slightly less down, but they could just strip out Ninki and lower the CD on Ninjutsu - the Job's signature mechanic - and interactions with it (Raiju, Hollow) to make it more interesting all around and I think that would be a FAR better and more fun system.

...unlike SAM, I do play NIN some. It's the only Melee that I really ALMOST like (I'm much more of a Caster or Ranged type person when I play damage dealer, but I actually really loved NIN before SB and especially ShB, still play it, still practice openers, and on rare occasion when my friends need a Melee, it's my go-to), and I wish they'd really play more into the fast/agile attacker and Ninjutsu system, personally. Give each Ninjutsu an interaction ability (not the best example, but something like how SMN has Astral Flow or GNB's Continuation [GNB did it first...] where each Ninjutsu has something different, like Raiton having Raiju) so that it really plays into that mechanic and is like the NIN using their magic more.

Ninki just ain't it. What even IS it? It's not Ninjutsu, it doesn't use hand signs, but it's also not their standard martial combat skills. You can just poop out a frog to spit a fireball.......because reasons? There's a scroll that calls to mind Naruto and Summon pacts, but we don't make one in the lore or Job quests. And then Bhavacackra and Bunshin are just...there? And Phantom? I mean, it's cool going back to Shade Shift to have your Shadow as a semi-combat familiar, but what is the lore behind that? And what is Bhavacackra? Like, in lore...what is it? No handsign, so it's not a magic induced attack so...then what is it? What IS Ninki?

...yeah.

.

EDIT2:

This is the lengths he's willing to go to prove he's right:

lol, stealth edit?

Best part is, for those that don't know, Deo was telling me a few days ago that we need more civility and had a quote of me in her signature she was using to mock me. When I pointed that out, she removed it. Just to bring it up again to make her case. It's like a jaded former lover bringing out something that they made up with you about before and said they'd never bring up again because they REALLY want to make people hate you.

You are NOT posting/arguing in good faith, Deo.

For someone who says she wants us to talk about the topic, you spend an inordinate amount of time talking about anything else, including dragging up whatever old laundry you can to try to attack people instead of talk about the topic. No one's making you attack me instead of keeping your posts strictly to the topic here.

You're doing that on your own.

And, again, you're doing that TO SOMEONE WHO AGREES WITH YOU THAT KAITEN SHOULD BE RETURNED.

I don't know how many times I have to say this before it gets through your thick skull.

[ZiraZ]

Run out of posts already

[Deo14]

Listen Ren, even though you surely think this is the case, I don't have anything personal against you, it's just funny to poke at you when you say something dumb and see the reaction. I'm sorry, but you're not that special, I do that to more people. Is this sometimes in that "bad faith" buzz phrase that you keep using whenever you're out of arguments? Yes. But come on, in this case, I just made a remark that you talk in SAM thread even though you don't even have it leveled, then gave you good amount of sources you can have a look at, that's all.

Then in response to it, you paraphrased me with "[Bunch of nonsense to a person correctly identifying the several issues going on and the view of the community as a whole and that the community as a whole is not in unanimous agreement.]". Right there, first response to me, you claim that I said unanimous, not "pretty much unanimous" like I really did, which really starts to feel like that you started to ignore original guy who said purely unanimous. You latched onto this technicality for multiple essays, which were directed at me. Why? If you just linked those sources from the start, we could have nice on-topic discussions days ago. Maybe if people wouldn't start to ignore this thread because it became yet another Ren vs Deo thread, it could see more engagement.

I was going to comment on this in the post above, but it didn't fit lol. 100% agree that the way most classes handle gauge is stupid beyond belief. WAR, DRK, NIN, and RPR all do this, and it would be nice if some of them used their gauge beyond simple attacks(Though I think WAR and RPR are fine as is, it's okay to have some classes that work like this). These classes do have other cds that use their gauge, but they also have abilities that refill their gauge/give them the ability for free around their burst... so what is the point of any attempt at gauge management? Samurai has always been a resource management job to me... having to make sure their sen and kenki bars line up to secure optimal damage... with the changes to kaiten, the kenki gauge is just for shinten, and most of the resource management feels lost.

You can just copy your post to notepad so you won't lose it, make a random post, then edit the post and paste your original message, that way it will ignore character limit. That's how I've put 35K characters in my Kaiten thread.

Anyways, a lot of gauges definitely feel like they're there just for the sake of being there. Just pool them, don't overcap and use it all in burst, that's all there is to it. There's just so many 0-100 gauges, that have skill costing 50 gauge, and copy of the same skill, but for AoE. If we want to get spicy, it has another skill that gives you 50 gauge. This skill will obviously be saved to burst too.

Kenki was unique because it was one of the few (if not only) gauges that strictly required you not to overcap, but also don't undercap. I really don't understand how someone can say with a straight face that Kaiten was not interesting, when game has some many skills which are just bland oGCDs with some potency that you use on CD, with no gauge or anything else attached to it. Honestly, even at this point, Kenki is better that probably 90% of the gauges, but it shouldn't be made worse so it's similar to the other ones, but other ones should be lifted higher so they're closer to Kenki gauge.