G-give it Back T---T; !!

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Ahh, more spam, lovely.



And no, kaiten can stay dead. What we really need is to Un-nerf setsugekka.

[CelestiCer]

Ahh, more spam, lovely.

And no, kaiten can stay dead. What we really need is to Un-nerf setsugekka.

Heresy !!!!!! Heretic !!! I say, mhm

[Ransu]

Ahh, more spam, lovely.



And no, kaiten can stay dead. What we really need is to Un-nerf setsugekka.

No thanks. Give me kaiten back.

[Reimmi]

Ahh, more spam, lovely.



And no, kaiten can stay dead. What we really need is to Un-nerf setsugekka.

If the button was too hard for you to use you could just not use it ^^

[CelestiCer]

If the button was too hard for you to use you could just not use it ^^

And that's the beauty of it. Like " Reimmi " mentions and I agree, if you don't want to master Kaiten and it's Kenki management? that is completely fine as players won't need to when they wish to clear 95% of all existing content. Hell even for the last 5% of hardcore endgame raiding it isn't even necessary to fully master it to perfection as DPS checks are made more leniant, it is optional mastery to pool Kenki perfectly with the extra Layer Kaiten provided that can be applied to all content and that is " satisfying "...

Although " Valkyrie's " point doesn't make sense... since Hissatsu: Kaiten management and it even existing? actually provided less spam in our rotation due to it providing another Kenki spender. The meme that its a button you press every time to downplay Kaiten as spam? ironically now that it doesn't exist means our gameplay has devolved into 1/5th of our Samurai rotation being Shinten Spamming. Kaiten never amounted to the same shallowness of Shinten spam, of which no one seems to advocate for it when they want to argue Kaiten away. No one cause we all know what we have now is truly dumb as bricks!!

Whenever it suits their narrative? Kaiten somehow is always to easy to handle yet simultaneously to difficult to handle? somehow always button bloat, somehow the only button we press every-time out every existing Job and Skill that exists in any Jobs rotation and somehow always the only skill regarded as spam when they want to argue Kaiten away... And yet they never put any other Samurai skill to the same level of scrutiny when they blast Kaiten's design ( i.e Shinten ) without knowing what they are talking about because shocker? they probably don't play Samurai. I want it back... " Give back my Kaiten " mhm

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

If the button was too hard for you to use you could just not use it ^^

Sigh... noone ever said Kaiten was difficult to press let alone manage any ressources for.

What is being repeatedly said is that Kaiten was essentially a button you press before Iaijutsu 100% of times and never press it on any other GCD 100% of times since at that point Shinten (and previously Seigan) had more ppg (potency per gaugecost).

Yes Shinten spam is boring, yes losing Seigan is a tragedy and I also can understand the satisfaction of the twirling animation and the idea of boosting/changing your next attack. But with Kaiten there was no alternative usecase, you always used it before Iaijutsu and never used it anywhere else in realistic scenarios. Shinten and Seigan you could at least shift where in your timeline you used them as long as you didn't overcap Kenki or went too low on burst window.

If Kaiten was transforming how Iaijutsus or skills in general behaved, THAT would be cool, that is what the PvP version does and what I'd enjoy having on Samurai. But the old version just is a "Shinten you press before Iaijutsus, everytime without question" so I understand why people don't care and don't want it back when there are others that do want it back.

[Reimmi]

Sigh... noone ever said Kaiten was difficult to press let alone manage any ressources for.

What is being repeatedly said is that Kaiten was essentially a button you press before Iaijutsu 100% of times and never press it on any other GCD 100% of times since at that point Shinten (and previously Seigan) had more ppg (potency per gaugecost).

Yes Shinten spam is boring, yes losing Seigan is a tragedy and I also can understand the satisfaction of the twirling animation and the idea of boosting/changing your next attack. But with Kaiten there was no alternative usecase, you always used it before Iaijutsu and never used it anywhere else in realistic scenarios. Shinten and Seigan you could at least shift where in your timeline you used them as long as you didn't overcap Kenki or went too low on burst window.

If Kaiten was transforming how Iaijutsus or skills in general behaved, THAT would be cool, that is what the PvP version does and what I'd enjoy having on Samurai. But the old version just is a "Shinten you press before Iaijutsus, everytime without question" so I understand why people don't care and don't want it back when there are others that do want it back.

The skill cap was lowered by removing it, it literally made kenki management matter, cause if you over used your filler spender you wouldnt be able to use it.
Just because it was always used doesn't mean it was a bad thing, aetherflow is always used before energy drain, should we remove that?
Life surge is always used before a big hit for dragoon, same thing.

I dont think comparing to pvp is a good idea either because if we go to 4 buttons in our rotation in pve i'm quitting instantly lmao, that works in pvp cause encounters are short, but the game would be so god damn boring with that few buttons

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

The skill cap was lowered by removing it, it literally made kenki management matter, cause if you over used your filler spender you wouldnt be able to use it.
Just because it was always used doesn't mean it was a bad thing, aetherflow is always used before energy drain, should we remove that?
Life surge is always used before a big hit for dragoon, same thing.

I dont think comparing to pvp is a good idea either because if we go to 4 buttons in our rotation in pve i'm quitting instantly lmao, that works in pvp cause encounters are short, but the game would be so god damn boring with that few buttons

Yes the skillcap was lowered and I lament it. As someone who plays Dark Knight I find pooling a ressource for a task rather than overspending a good mechanic so I totally agree with you on it. But what I don't agree on is how you conflate other examples with Kaiten.

- Aetherflow is a ressource generator, not a skill transformator. The closest equivalent to that would be Ikishoten -> Ogi Namikiri combo + Shintens. Furthermore, the ressources get to be spent on either energy drain or (depending on what the fight needs) a variety of support utility like Sacred Soil.

- Life Surge is cooldown based, not ressource based. You use plenty of Heaven's Thrusts without Life Surge, you did not use a single Iaijutsu without Kaiten. Before it gets dropped - the same applies to Machinist Reassemble on Drill / Air Anchor / Chainsaw.

I understand your initial fear for anything related PvP, but you are missing the point why I'm bringing it up.

I specifically am only referrring to the Kaiten effect (that is currently on their dash) transforming your single target combo into AOE variants with different effects based on the combo step and nothing else about PvP so if you could stop kneejerk reacting just because I said "PvP" that'd be great. It doesn't have to be a CC, extra damage and a lifesteal but it could be other effects that aren't "press X before every Y everytime without question".

I miss pooling ressources for other skills other than Shinten. I and various others don't miss singular-purpose-only Kaiten. I am not sure how much clearer we can make it.

[CelestiCer]

I always saw kaiten itself AS the alternative use case for Kenki, which now really has no other use case. - Also bros come on with the "why not ask for something better?" Stuff. This is Square Enix. They don't give take something away and give back "something better." They take something away and best case scenario give it back in a mangled form.

This! Square does indeed not remove skills and then give them back in a more complex/changed manner for increase depth. Some seem to have missed the memo on how every expansion left most Jobs hollowed out, Samurai with 7 simplifications... getting Kaiten back would be a miracle and it's not un-reasonable request as it existed. Very easy to get back.

I disagree with Reinhardt's notion of Kaiten having to be more " multipurpose " since they argued that already at the DPS subsection. Clearly as Non-Samurai player as well, so excuse me if I sense bad faith... It existing prevented Shinten spam gameplay so Functionally, Aesthetically and Thematically to build up to big hits was already multipurpose. Yet... why is Kaiten put under scrutiny to be something completely different when brought back as an overused argument? Like how has that worked out for Dark Arts, Aero III and so many other skills where it not only should come back but also alter how your entire skill-kit works? ( what in the... )

" That Honda Civic you took?... I want it back... and have it be able to transform from a Car? into a boat Plane? with build-in probably not so functioning jacuzzi when changed into a Trike, Get on it!! " <- like what?

Asking Square/Dev's and Co something back how it worked? Is more realistic as they proven to have done that before. After SMN rework? Seeing something new and unproven be implemented from what they have removed? You can tell I'm not very optimistic... vs asking something back I know exactly of what I should get back. Not everything has to be multi-purpose, a spoon/fork/knife work perfectly fine as they is... Not everything has to be a battery powered pocket knife with build in " spork "

[Zairava]

what in the...[/B] )

Dark Arts modifying abilities to give them another effect and/or making them stronger was literally how Dark Arts worked.