I was almost in the mood to play FF14 again

[Deo14]

Wow, why does this not surprise me?
(It does seem to be a thing where those wanting Kaiten back irrationally respond to any post that isn't in full agreement and don't brook any disagreement and look for any way possible to discredit someone pointing out they are not a 100% complete and unanimous majority...)

I didn't say no one anywhere else than here was complaining about Kaiten. I said the view is not universal.

Universal means 100% agreement with no disagreement. The only thing, literally the only thing, I'm harping on here is the insistence that it is universal.

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If you're going to offer a rebuttal - and insult a person - at least get their argument right, otherwise you're rebutting a straw man, not an argument. And ad hominem isn't relevant. Me not playing SAM has no relevance to my ability to read internet forums and see a non-unanimous position isn't unanimous.

EDIT: Hell, even in the first thread you linked on Reddit, the OP lists several complaints that I pointed out, an several of the responses are LITERALLY making the arguments I presented - that people miss the animation, that some people don't mind the removal they just wanted something to replace it, etc.

At least read your own sources that disprove you and support my position.

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I get it's easy to be super emotional about Kaiten. That doesn't mean you can or should insult or attack people, nor that you should ignore facts and reality.

The MAJORITY seem to want Kaiten back - did I say otherwise?

But it's not unanimous, and there are more than one reason, and there are well thought out counters to it having been removed. /end

Could you start engaging discussions with actual arguments, instead of moving goalposts wherever you desire with stuff like ""Akshually, I meant that 100% of people doesn't agree with it". Didn't we already clarified in the healer thread that it is given that no community ever 100% agrees with anything?

But who am I kidding, you don't have any arguments, you don't even have SAM leveled after all, what's the point of your input in this matter?

And most importantly, where are the links to your theory crafters' opinion you spoke of? I was hoping to get some good chuckle from reading that. Could you at least once give source to have some credibility? You still didn't give me that data about that 1-2M/2-4M players from a month ago, after I went through all the trouble giving all the links and sources to you.

So please, link me those "well thought out counters to it having been removed" you speak of.

Hm, interesting reads about Kaiten... With that being said, where you all think that SAM will grow towards in DT?

Even without Kaiten, or thinking about it without the idea of what it used to do (since I didn't experience it), SAM's flow feels quite complete. Is there anything to be added without causing actual bloat?

I don't have big hopes, after all both 2 additions of active skills in EW were bloat (Shoha 2 and Ogi). It will be probably some QoL. EW gave us 2nd Meikyo stack, which made freestyle SAM legitimate playstyle, so my fear is that next in the line of QoL changes are instacasted Iaijutsu, and I'm getting disgusted just thinking about that. After that, fancy skill at capstone, animation upgrade and another active skill, hopefully something that has low CD and uses Kenki, so the Shinten spam stops.

[Raikai]

which made freestyle SAM legitimate playstyle, so my fear is that next in the line of QoL changes are instacasted Iaijutsu, and I'm getting disgusted just thinking about that. After that, fancy skill at capstone, animation upgrade and another active skill, hopefully something that has low CD and uses Kenki, so the Shinten spam stops.

Oh? What is 'freestyle' play? I didn't see this in any of the lv90 guides, but perhaps is just nomenclature.

[Deo14]

Oh? What is 'freestyle' play? I didn't see this in any of the lv90 guides, but perhaps is just nomenclature.

We used to have only single stack of Tsubame and Meikyo, which made it harder to align everyrthing, and also because you got buffs only from 2nd parts of Kasha/Gekko combos, simply said, rotation used to be much more strict in the past. Nowadays, you just need to remember few things to do and their priority and you can just wing it/freestyle it. This might be shocking, but SAM was often considered hard, some people went as far as comparing it to BLM. Which is huge contrast to today's "anything goes" SAM.

Freestyle samurai seems to originate from one singular person, then it got memed on and the legend of freestyle samurai started. It's very hyperbolical example of someone who was really just mashing his button as he wanted, but difficulty of playing SAM has definitely lowered significantly since that time, so we are getting closer and closer to the legendary freestyle samurai. Long story short, my comment was just a hyperbole.

[Absurdity]

Freestyle samurai seems to originate from one singular person, then it got memed on and the legend of freestyle samurai started. It's very hyperbolical example of someone who was really just mashing his button as he wanted, but difficulty of playing SAM has definitely lowered significantly since that time, so we are getting closer and closer to the legendary freestyle samurai. Long story short, my comment was just a hyperbole.

I wouldn't be surprised if that term became a thing in late Stormblood where the high skillspeed shinten spam SAM was a legitimate playstyle that put out competitive numbers while being basically just button mashing.

[Shurrikhan]

I wouldn't be surprised if that term became a thing in late Stormblood where the high skillspeed shinten spam SAM was a legitimate playstyle that put out competitive numbers while being basically just button mashing.

This is a bit of a conflation. Stormblood high-SkS SAM spent a smaller portion of its Kenki on Shinten because Hagakure's resource-per-minute did not scale with SkS. Its portion of damage coming from Shinten was even smaller still, as their dominant secondary stat (SkS) doesn't affect oGCD damage. Finally, though, it wasn't much less complex, as it still tried to maximize Hagakure's resource-per-minute, to only faintly less punishment (since, again, it got less value out of all Kenki spenders except Kaiten) than Crit/DHit builds.

High SkS SAM was competitive... if played optimally. High SkS SAM played by "basically button mashing" was not competitive.

[Renathras]

Could you start engaging discussions with actual arguments, instead of moving goalposts wherever you desire with stuff like ""Akshually, I meant that 100% of people doesn't agree with it".

Goalpost move??

So is it stupid that your job, most likely main, got neutered overnight because they woke up crooked? So is it silly that with unanimous complaints, designers and devs have blatantly ignored community feedback? Maybe he's one of the least stupid, maybe.

Believe it or not, the complaints are not unanimous.

Again, there are theory crafters, guide makers, etc that can give reasoned arguments for why Kaiten's removal was not a bad thing/was a good thing. On other forums (not this one for some reason), the position is not unanimous. Reddit, for example, but r/ffxiv and r/ffxivdiscussion (which is more technically minded people discussing mechanics and stuff) has dissent against Kaiten being a good ability.

I'm not saying one way or the other - both sides, imo, have good arguments - but I am saying complaints are not unanimous.

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Oh, and don't get me wrong, I don't know that removing Kaiten WAS a good idea. I'm just pointing out there is more discussion/disagreement on the topic than skimming this forum would suggest.

That was LITERALLY the goalpost!

If you people would stop using hyperbole like "unanimous" to bolster your argument, no one would need to point out it's not, in fact, unanimous. You can't use something as an argument in support of your position then get upset when someone shows that argument is faulty.

There ARE arguments to make to bring Kaiten back. Claiming that everyone agrees it should be back is not one of them. It's literally that simple. It's the same reason we had that discussion in the Healer thread, because people there were (and still are/do) trying to rest their argument on the force of unanimity that doesn't exist.

But who am I kidding, you never have a good argument, you just try to discredit the person you're arguing with and use that to support discarding their argument without actually addressing it: The definition of an ad hominem fallacy.

And what are you talking about? I posted the data with links quite some time ago on the player numbers. I referenced the Bancho numbers and the Wayback Machine ones. o.O Why even bother giving you links when you're going to pretend they didn't exist?

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Anyway, I've already made my case. There are arguments on both sides, there is not unanimous support for bringing it back, and people miss it for various reasons including but not limited to the animation, the feel of it in the rotation, the spam it's been replaced with, the big dopamine hit it would give, the complexity some people felt it added to the Job, rose-tinted goggles, and memes.

But, as you want to throw down the gauntlet, and since we're bringing up other threads and parts of the forum now for REASONS, I think someone in general (who I often disagree with), said it best:

Discussing a topic you are passionate about in one thread is not the same thing as being so obsessed with one skill in a video game that you feel the need to post numerous threads about it over the course of months, if not longer. (I'm not looking through their post history as I value my sanity)

yeah this obsession is weird, miss me out on that, really cringe at this point tbh

I don't typically agree with either of these people, but they kind of called this one right.

Kaiten itself wasn't really a very interesting button, it just offered a different button to press than Shinten. So instead of reimplementing Kaiten, why not design a better ability that uses Kenki? That solves the actual issue at hand while also making SAM more interesting than either pre or post Kaiten removal.

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I was just replying to two people earlier in the thread, one who asked a question and one who presented an over-broad unanimity argument. The rest from there is up to other people. o/

[Spigg]

I don't typically agree with either of these people, but they kind of called this one right.

Kaiten itself wasn't really a very interesting button, it just offered a different button to press than Shinten. So instead of reimplementing Kaiten, why not design a better ability that uses Kenki? That solves the actual issue at hand while also making SAM more interesting than either pre or post Kaiten removal.

This is a argument, but I wouldn't exactly call it an argument for kaiten's removal; Its more... arguing for a rework of kaiten. But let's break it down:

People are protesting against the removal of kaiten, but I don't think kaiten's removal is exactly what offends them... Its the gaping hole in samurai's rotation where kaiten used to be which is causing a lot of SAM players to be enraged, myself included. As the protestors have made it abundantly clear, every single reason listed by SE for kaiten's removal doesn't make sense, and we have never had a proper response from the dev team, so they are mad. If SE responded by adding a new and interesting ability to fill that gaping hole... I don't think anyone would be nearly as angry (Of course some people would, but there is always going to be someone upset when change happens).

That being said... what would be a good thing to replace kaiten? IE, not something that is just [SPEND X AMOUNT OF KENKI, DEAL X POTENCY] with a cd. Sure, kaiten does seem like a basic skill... but it did do a pretty good job at what it was designed to do: Make sure you are managing your kenki right so you do proper damage with your big hitting attacks. I'm not even against this comment... I'm sure there are plenty of great ideas on kaiten reworks that would make SAM more fun and more engaging. I would be interested to hear ideas on potential abilities/reworks that would do what kaiten did, but better.

In essence of everything I just said, while that quote is an interesting discussion, it isn't really a argument for samurai's current condition, nor is it a counter to the "Bring back Kaiten" movement.

Edit:

After finishing writing this comment, I went and actually read the entirety of the post that Renathras was quoting... and the one line he removed from this paragraph is basically a summary of what this entire comment was about LOL

Most of the people that were mad over its removal aren't even really that mad about Kaiten itself, they're mad that SAM's rotation has devolved into Shinten spam. Kaiten itself wasn't really a very interesting button, it just offered a different button to press than Shinten. So instead of reimplementing Kaiten, why not design a better ability that uses Kenki? That solves the actual issue at hand while also making SAM more interesting than either pre or post Kaiten removal.

(There is still more to this post I'm not quoting)

I don't entirely agree with this comment, I do think that kaiten was good at doing what it was designed to do... but again, I'd be open to ideas.

[Deo14]

If you people would stop using hyperbole like "unanimous" to bolster your argument, no one would need to point out it's not, in fact, unanimous. You can't use something as an argument in support of your position then get upset when someone shows that argument is faulty.

I feel like you're the kind of guy who sees "100% orange juice" and start yelling at the store manager, saying that they're lying, because there is not such a thing as 100% in real world. Yes, words like unanimous, perfect and similar are mere concepts, nothing is ever perfect or unanimous, should we stop using them so you're happy? Can you start going after arguments, instead going after technicalities for once? Attack the idea, not technicalities. Especially since this isn't some br*tish or USA forums, english is second language for many, don't expect that everyone knows exact definition of every common word.

Will you finally link those "well thought out counters to it having been removed", I'm still waiting for them.

[Renathras]

I would say absolutely not. The smn just missed badly in depth.

SMN is fine as a Job, and the most I've enjoyed SMN since 2.5. Each expansion after made the Job worse and worse, and now it's back to being coherent again. I do think it should have been a separate Job and the mess that was old SMN retained in some way for people that liked it, but in vacuum, if it had just been added as a new Job so the jaded old SMN players who loved that Frankenstein's monster held together by duct tape and wishes weren't up in arms about losing the thing they loved, it'd be far less hated than it is now since it would be looked at largely as RDM/DNC 2.0. RDM was also called easy and barebones, but people liked it, and its original forms did NOT have much more depth (or any more depth) than current SMN.

I feel like you're the kind of guy who sees "100% orange juice" and start yelling at the store manager,

No, I'm not.

When you're engaged in a discussion, and you're employing RAMPANT hyperbole to support a position, it's fair for someone to point out you shouldn't be doing that and you're wrong. When you're using it as one of the KEY ARGUMENTS in favor of your position, it's MORE than fair for people to point out it's wrong. And when you accuse them of moving goalposts and other ad hominems, trying to bring up completely unrelated discussions and so on to discredit them instead of just admitting "Yes, we're lying to get what we want", then there's reason for them to not give you the time of day AFTER pointing it out.

Unanimous isn't a "mere concept". Rare it is, but there are some things that everyone agrees on. There are times that Parliament/Congress holds a vote and there are no dissenting voices. There are times that groups of people have complete agreement on specific points of things. Some things are, in fact, sometimes unanimous. Meaning when you say unanimous, that actually means something. It means no one disagrees and there is no dissent, PERIOD.

And yes, you shouldn't use such a thing when it's not true.

That's when you use terms like majority or plurality, though for that, you need some kind of official source or tally, not a non-scientific poll equivalent of counting Likes in a medium that has no controls for people voting more than once, brigading votes to overinflate a position, or so on, which we do not in fact have.

And it's LAUGHABLE you're one to ask me to go after arguments instead of technicalities "for once" when I actually presented arguments and your "rebuttals" to me here have all been on technicalities! "Attack the idea, not technicalities" would carry far more weight if not coming from a person who accused me of moving a goal post when I addressed directly someone ELSE'S argument, who then attacked me for not having a max leveled SAM for a topic (seeing if people disagree in forums or not) that doesn't require having a Job leveled to see.

You aren't arguing in good faith and anything I present to you you're going to ignore or also attack, same as you ignored me giving you the player numbers (you didn't even bother to attack the sources, you just ignored I gave it to you so you could lie about it later bringing it up into different discussions).

I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge that so I'm not wasting my time. Because I'm pretty sure if I give you ANY source you're going to attack it/ignore it anyway. "Well, this one only mentioned Kaiten in passing", "Was this person a SAM main? CLEARLY their opinion doesn't count!", etc etc. Heck, in that thread in General are people saying Kaiten being removed was good and saying why they thought so, and you ignored them. If you're just going to ignore such statements, what's the point in showing them to you?

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And the messed up thing is: I personally don't care either way and would be fine with them returning Kaiten.

I literally have no figurative horse in this race, but you're attacking me for merely pointing out that some of the complaints against Kaiten removal aren't well founded and that there are people that agreed with its removal.

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EDIT: My position, as posted there:

This is my position as well.

It IS an obsession, people that want it back ARE irrational in how they will lash out at anyone they perceive as preventing that (even if said person has actual arguments or is offering fair rebuttal to them), but I personally don't care. If it made people happy, give it back to them? As long as it isn't making a bunch of other people upset, what's the harm? No one hurt, lots more happy, win-win/net positive.

[Deo14]

I actually presented arguments

You didn't, you merely corrected my use of hyperbole and wrote like 4 essays so far about it. Just send the links for the "well thought out counters to it having been removed" you talked about so the discussion can actually start. So far we've been just throwing technicalities around without anything meaningful.