For those who main/semi-main a DPS (e.g. DNC, RDM) but like Healers...

[Shurrikhan]

I think you might be thinking of this, truly one of the crimes of our lifetimes. Anyway, I cannot fully understand the idea without playing it, but it seems... exceptionally convoluted for a DOT. To the point where I'd say it's not just 'a DOT', but more like the job's identity.

Aye. T'was the point. I didn't mean it as an example of DoT; again, I don't care whether AST has one or not, even I do think if having anchors or pace-setters enough to its GCDs for each to reach sort of 'critical mass' is better than having no such pressure/challenge/room for optimization (which GCD Cards and HoTs could provide anyways). I just want to see AST a proper Time-Space Magic + Cards/Divination Mage.

Sorry if my bringing it up after all this DoT discussion was... very understandably confusing.

For context, rq: I don't really feel like it's all that fitting for AST to be especially GCD-dependent in their healing or to be the kind of healer you expect to solo-pump through nightmarish scenarios. I expect they'd be more preemptive enabler by means distinct from just barriers. And, ofc, if Cards can already provide that sort of "pace-setting" or "anchoring", then a traditional DoT could easily be redundant.

Imo, DoTs are cool in that they pack a lot of potential nuance and functionality for their apparent complexity, but if the needs are already met through other, thematic ways, then they'd obviously be excess to requirement.

re: Time Mage being a potential better fit.

More on this later, but a quick Q for now: Do you really feel like giving Time (or Time-Space) magic its due would leave no room for Cards/Divination? Otherwise, I'd be fine with seeing this Singularity mechanic or its like... even right on AST.

Casting Singularity begins the building phase, and you get two balls floating round your head. You'd have two sets of skills, with varying effects, DOTs, direct damage, whatever. One set, let's call it Matter and Antimatter. As you use skills from each of these two sets of skills, you'd do your rotation, but also add matter and antimatter to the two Singularities in varying amounts.

As a general concept, my interest is definitely piqued.

Rather than RDM's 50/50 spend, this would be 'consumes whole gauge, scales damage based on amount consumed'

Tbf, I do feel like RDM would simultaneously have a lower floor but a higher ceiling (yes, Ren, that is possible; you simply missed the mark) if it had scaling gauge expenditure, haha. (I can expand on this later, if you like, Roe.)

Maybe it sounds all too similar to RDM, but...

So... the first analog that came to mind wasn't RDM so much as just... old Wildfire: Pop debuff, throw damage in, and voila -- you have... an otherwise totally normal damage buff... that craps out if the target dies too soon... and, in itself, punishes you for using AoE actions while it's active.

The RDM-like stuff does improve beyond that, and if you offer at least niche (rarely, but still occasionally, net-positive) uses for imbalances, it'd be better than RDM's current use of B/W Mana.

I think it could be a lot more Time Mage-y in practice, rather than just in skin, but I'd still probably dig it well enough -- certainly if compared to most mechanics on other jobs presently.
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To recap:

My Combust is akin to a Bishop Turret but multi-summonable (i.e., you can have more than one out), ramped through active actions, indirectly movable to new positions by other instances of that summon, with further optimization available via balancing resources generated (the HP of Summon 1 vs. Summon 2, or split among 3 if you ever needed the extra coverage and otherwise inefficient delayed burst), leading to a final burst of later payoff. Which is, admittedly, a mouthful.

Your Singularity is a highly flavorful buff that acts sort of like damage window or actively ramped action with later payoff that offers an additional optimization concern via (im)balancing resources generated therein? Is that a decent-ish summary?

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While we're at it, if you were to siphon off AST's claim on Time-Space magics forever more to give to a Time Mage, what other aspects or core gameplay components would you want to see on it?

For context/heads-up: For my part, I'm fine with jobs feeling a little bundled. I'd much prefer a MNK that could significantly vary its kit through its different stances; a Paladin that could actually make good use of its Shield skills and Shield Oath in addition to its sword stuff even if that means we can't get a separate "Templar" job or w/e; a Warrior that can more deeply swing its resources between "Too angry to die" and "Too angry to let you live" even if that means no Berserker job; for Summoner (Egis returned) itself to be able to consume and take on aspects of its summon even if that means no "Evoker" job opposite it; etc., etc.

[ForsakenRoe]

Yeh, you got a pretty accurate summary of what I was thinking. I'd look at this 'Singularity' as... It's kind of Wildfire in execution, but in terms of 'phases of combat', I'd expect it to have an upper limit that you'd reach roughly every 30s of combat. So you'd have one land in raidbuffs, and 3 outside of them. I almost envision it as being like old HW Enochian, as that, you could 'reset' every 30s. Unlike that, however, if you goof the Singularity, you can fire it off early and reset with a new one at any time. This also means that, say you start up a Singularity 40s before raidbuffs (downtime forced you to or something), you could fire off a smaller one earlier on purpose, such that you get a fully charged up one into the raidbuffs.

IDK if you ever played Vampire Survivors, but I was thinking of the SpellStrom singularities while writing, and how they collide every now and again for a cataclysmic amount of damage on the whole screen. In FFXIV though, we actually have the VFX already for the detonation effect: depending on if Matter or Antimatter is higher, we can reuse the 'you failed a tower' from P12S. I don't know why, but I love the aesthetic of that 'you failed' screenwipe. Black with white highlight for Antimatter-attuned, white with black for Matter-attuned, and IDK what for 'exactly equal'. Actually, thinking on it, I think that having the whole kit be like this, just pure white and pure black, would look pretty cool and unique

Oh, and I wouldn't have it as a debuff on the enemy, it'd orbit around you ala BLM orbs until you launch it off, so if an enemy dies to your builders, you can target a different enemy and launch it at them instead. In fact, such a strategy might be interesting to play around, of building and holding onto a Singularity from hitting the boss, such that when a priority add appears, you can chunk it with a fully primed Singularity as your first GCD against it. As for Time Mage aesthetics, let's again say that Matter is the side which has a DOT, and Antimatter is built exclusively via standard 'do damage' GCDs. We can have things like Haste, to selfbuff your GCD speed, and increasing how fast you cast spells. We can have Quicken as a phase of instantcasts, and an Antimatter spell that generates more gauge, but has an obscene cast time, but can be Quickened to make it instant and therefore better than the filler. We can have an interplay between Matter and Antimatter spells, where eg a Matter spell might proc a speed boosted cast of the slow-hard Antimatter cast such that it's equal to the GCD in cast time for one use. We can use Slow as a way to extend the Matter DOT's duration, Stop to pause buffs on ourselves to keep buffs up for longer. We could even get super weird with it and have skills that convert between Matter and Antimatter, or generate some of both but at imbalanced amounts eg, a Blasting Zone style hard hitting OGCD builder, that creates 10 Antimatter and 6 Matter, so you have to make sure to be prepared with how your balance looks, going into using the skill. Also, skills that detonate their damage X seconds later. Meaning that you have to consider 'I am at 84/90 atm, but I have a Comet coming in 6 seconds that builds 10/10, thus I will cap out on Antimatter because of it. As such, I should use my filler Matter skill that gives 3 twice, putting me at 90/90 with 1 second of Comet left, and while casting 'Launch Singularity' (or Event Horizon, or whatever cool name), the Comet will push me to the full 100/100 mid-cast time'. Maybe a skill that accelerates the effect so that it lands instantly (slap it on Quicken if needed).

Also, I wanna see not astrology, but astronomy terms, and lots of them. Event Horizon, Red Shift, Conjunction, Syzygy, stuff like that

While we're at it, if you were to siphon off AST's claim on Time-Space magics forever more to give to a Time Mage, what other aspects or core gameplay components would you want to see on it?

As above. I would want it to be 'Balance Druid, but you're not a fat chicken, and it looks cooler (Starsurge looks terrible, New/Half/Full Moon should be the spender). People always said of Time Mage stuff 'you can't balance Haste/Slow in an MMO setting' but that was because AST had those effects, and could give them to allies. Keeping them self-contained to the Time Mage allows them to be balanced, we don't complain about how OP it is that BLM can effectively 'haste' itself with Ley Lines. But yeh, this is assuming that doing this (giving time/space stuff to Time Mage) would make AST's fortune telling more prominent as it's gameplay. Like, idk, making Minor Arcana actually worth a damn instead of '50% chance for a Malefic 1, and 50% chance for a Helios'. You could throw a very 'simplified' version on AST, but I feel like it'd be a bit of a waste to do so, as it'd never be able to reach it's full 'complexity', and at the same time, it'd be justification to keep the cards simple in SE's eyes, which... yeh, we don't want these cards any longer than we have to

TLDR, I don't think we'd ever see AST as a Time/Space AND Cards/buffing class, without one or both of those aspects being horrendously simplified to the point of 'why even have this'. Thus, rather than risk SE being SE and making a half-ass job of both aspects of the identity, I'd rather they split them and have one or the other, and give the unused identity to something else. Since Cards were the primary focus of AST (it's in the weapon/job splashart), I'd rather that be the focus of the class, make that system more interesting/complex, and then give Time stuff to a Time Mage. And before Ren comes in, no, giving away WHM's elements is not the same, as we changed from 'use Stone for damage, Water for OGCD damage, Wind for DOT' to 'use Light for damage, Light for DOT, and lose the OGCD damage skill entirely', transitioning to Light skills did not 'require' we lose complexity (ie, Fluid Aura could have gone LightMode too) and so giving the elemental themes away to a GEO does not make as much sense to me as the TIM thing

[Shurrikhan]

<Time Mage>

So, first off, all this sounds pretty great. Even the fact that every Tim will be confused with a master of time and space.

I almost envision it as being like old HW Enochian, as that, you could 'reset' every 30s. Unlike that, however, if you goof the Singularity, you can fire it off early and reset with a new one at any time. This also means that, say you start up a Singularity 40s before raidbuffs (downtime forced you to or something), you could fire off a smaller one earlier on purpose, such that you get a fully charged up one into the raidbuffs.

Love it.

Matter is the side which has a DOT, and Antimatter is built exclusively via standard 'do damage' GCDs

I guess my main/one complaint here is that it feels kinda arbitrary, rather than having much of anything inherently to do with their categories?

Both from what I can imagine from this description and that of the Quicken and Slow/Stop implications, the only thing that's feeling especially Time Mage-y are the ability to pause buff durations and to affect the time that "detonate X seconds later" effects detonate.

Which is still leagues better than most existing XIV jobs, but it just feels like there's still more you can grab here? Still, looks appetizing; would play.

People always said of Time Mage stuff 'you can't balance Haste/Slow in an MMO setting' but that was because AST had those effects, and could give them to allies.

Which... to be fair... makes no more sense than saying "You can't balance Damage buffs in an MMO setting."

They're just two sides of the same coin. Damage disproportionately rewards jobs with high potency-per-X-seconds' damage density; Haste disproportionately rewards jobs with high potency-per-X-seconds-uniquely-achievable-through-GCD-reduction (such as being able to use an extra Bootshine per Demolish back before it was fettered to Dragon Kick, or just barely able to use an extra Full Thrust per Chaos Thrust back in ARR/HW). The higher one's % of damage comes from oGCDs, usually the more Damage is favorable to them over Haste, and vice versa.

On which note, I don't think one needs to leave them self-contained to the Time Mage, though if it's to be primarily a DPS, it would make sense to have typically have greater haste synergy (inherently or by some passive advantaging it on self) than most jobs, with it only being used on others if you're Weakened or for emergencies (Haste the WHM whose GCDs are finally actually advantaged over other healers').

TLDR, I don't think we'd ever see AST as a Time/Space AND Cards/buffing class, without one or both of those aspects being horrendously simplified to the point of 'why even have this'. Thus, rather than risk SE being SE and making a half-ass job of both aspects of the identity, I'd rather they split them and have one or the other, and give the unused identity to something else. Since Cards were the primary focus of AST (it's in the weapon/job splashart), I'd rather that be the focus of the class, make that system more interesting/complex, and then give Time stuff to a Time Mage.

While I think we'd be fine with an AST that has the full slew of Time Mage components atop a full slew of Card components if this game just allowed for greater kit breadth in general (which would be preferable to me), I can definitely see where you're coming from here.

[Renathras]

At first I didn't know what you meant, but having read this I agree, there's some definite deja vu going on.

But anyway, please consider WAR, again.

WAR's basic combo are not cast time actions, meaning WAR doesn't have issues with movement. The only similar situation is WAR having to disengage, which in modern content is almost a nonexistent memory.

If Glare was instant cast, this would be a valid comparison - always refresh Dia at 29 sec after the initial double stack to 60 and then pepper the enemy with Glares for all other CDs. But that's not the case. WHM does have to worry about movement since you cannot Glare while moving more than once (Swiftcast). You can Heavy Swing, Maim, and Storm's Path while moving.

Le sigh....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLl3OK_l_Nw
"Not so easy, is it?"

Yeah, it doesn't feel good, does it? I wish you'd take that feeling, realize how bad it is, and not do it to others in the future. Just a thought.

[ForsakenRoe]

So, first off, all this sounds pretty great. Even the fact that every Tim will be confused with a master of time and space.

My character's name is Samantha. You get used to it.

While out collecting some food, I did have an idea, of a DOT that gets stronger the closer to expiry it gets (something about time's relative speed, and your proximity to a black hole), so you could have interesting gameplay where you want to try and keep it lower duration (more potency) using Slow/Stop, etc kind of skills, but also not too low or it runs out on you.

The main issue with haste is that it's harder to quantify how much extra damage was gained from the buff, with regard to 'allocating that damage to the buffer on logs', but I suppose we shouldn't design around logs either way really. If you wanted to have partywise time magic stuff, the way I could see it is to have a Magick Barrier style mit, where the damage isn't mitigated at all, but instead a portion is dealt instantly, and the rest staggered out over the next X seconds. Say, 80% is dealt immediately, and 20% is dealt as 4 hits of 5% across the next 12s.

Would be interesting for the class if it had spellspeed synergy such that rather than getting a Singularity prepped every 30s, you got a slightly weaker one but every 20s, and it maths out that it's 'technically more damage' due to going from 4 per 2min to 6. Then BLM would have a gearset partner

edit: oh yeh, Matter being the side with a DOT is completely arbitrary. Just an example of a way that would 'force' the build speeds to be staggered so you have to adapt to the changing bar balance more than you do with RDM, where it's almost impossible at this point to imbalance them

[Shurrikhan]

WAR's basic combo are not cast time actions, meaning WAR doesn't have issues with movement. The only similar situation is WAR having to disengage, which in modern content is almost a nonexistent memory.

If Glare was instant cast, this would be a valid comparison - always refresh Dia at 29 sec after the initial double stack to 60 and then pepper the enemy with Glares for all other CDs. But that's not the case. WHM does have to worry about movement since you cannot Glare while moving more than once (Swiftcast). You can Heavy Swing, Maim, and Storm's Path while moving.

??? How are you possibly mixing implications to this degree? Roe was talking about the net reduction in decision-making consequent to letting Surging Tempest stack to 60s because it is the only GCD-applied buff that was changed from non-stacking to stacking -- i.e., the only relevant example of the change you're suggesting.

And if even it reduced skill ceiling to that degree...

While out collecting some food, I did have an idea, of a DOT that gets stronger the closer to expiry it gets (something about time's relative speed, and your proximity to a black hole), so you could have interesting gameplay where you want to try and keep it lower duration (more potency) using Slow/Stop, etc kind of skills, but also not too low or it runs out on you.

Nice. Again, anything that ties in seemingly naturally/inherently to those time-manipulating aspects sounds great.

If you wanted to have partywise time magic stuff, the way I could see it is to have a Magick Barrier style mit, where the damage isn't mitigated at all, but instead a portion is dealt instantly, and the rest staggered out over the next X seconds.

That definitely sounds like the most fitting way to handle mitigation on a Time Mage. /nod

I had thought of giving that mechanic to WAR or DRK before, in keeping with their self-sustain (former, in DRK's case), but if there's to be a Time Mage added, it's kinda nice not have already used it. Cool, cool.

edit: oh yeh, Matter being the side with a DOT is completely arbitrary. Just an example of a way that would 'force' the build speeds to be staggered so you have to adapt to the changing bar balance more than you do with RDM, where it's almost impossible at this point to imbalance them

I think that's one of the main reasons I've had trouble getting into RDM since that brief period where a precise imbalance was optimal since it'd cut costs (see early RDM bugs/design oversights). It just feels like wholly arbitrary A1 A2 alternation that's hard to get wrong anyways, making most of the gimmick just feel like bloat.

[Renathras]

??? How are you possibly mixing implications to this degree? Roe was talking about the net reduction in decision-making consequent to letting Surging Tempest stack to 60s because it is the only GCD-applied buff that was changed from non-stacking to stacking -- i.e., the only relevant example of the change you're suggesting.

And if even it reduced skill ceiling to that degree...

[EDIT: Let me try to be more polite...]

I was explaining why they aren't the same. I'm sorry the concept of "Here's how those two things are different" goes over your head. In simple terms, WAR doesn't have extra decision making because, outside of trying to use Storm's Path instead of Storm's Eye during burst, there's no time that you need to pool Storm's Eyes. There's no time in a fight letting the buff go really low (<9 sec) so you can quickly use two Storm's Eyes in a row is beneficial to you. Unlike stacking Dia, which would allow you to play with the duration to allow you better damage optimized movement, Storm's Eye does not share that quality.

That's how they're different.

That's entirely relevant to the discussion because that difference is what would allow stacking Dia to have a higher skill ceiling and reward foresight where non-stacking Dia does not vs Storm's Path not sharing that quality.

Given the thing we're talking about is high skill ceiling and rewarding foresight, that difference is absolutely relevant.

EDIT: Also note that Storm's Eye doesn't benefit from buff snapshotting, while Dia would. Meaning that's yet another layer of complexity and skill ceiling Dia stacking has over Storm's Eye stacking.

.

I'm pointing out how Dia stacking would not be like Storm's Eye stacking in the specific ways that count for what we're discussing. Pretty sure that's relevant.

[AmiableApkallu]

[EDIT: Let me try to be more polite...]I was explaining why they aren't the same. I'm sorry the concept of "Here's how those two things are different" goes over your head. In simple terms, WAR doesn't have extra decision making because, outside of trying to use Storm's Path instead of Storm's Eye during burst, there's no time that you need to pool Storm's Eyes. There's no time in a fight letting the buff go really low (<9 sec) so you can quickly use two Storm's Eyes in a row is beneficial to you. Unlike stacking Dia, which would allow you to play with the duration to allow you better damage optimized movement, Storm's Eye does not share that quality.

That's how they're different.

That's entirely relevant to the discussion because that difference is what would allow stacking Dia to have a higher skill ceiling and reward foresight where non-stacking Dia does not vs Storm's Path not sharing that quality.

The skill ceiling is defined by the difficulty in identifying what's optimal within the constraints of a fight and job, and by the difficulty in executing the optimal plan once identified.

In terms of difficulty of execution, a stacking Dia lowers the skill ceiling. Consider the lowly striking dummy: A non-stacking Dia must be hit every 30 seconds, on the dot (pun intended?). You are allowed no deviations from this plan. A stacking Dia affords you far more flexibility; you don't have to time your refreshes to specific moments in the fight. This is, in fact, true in any fight so long as movement isn't a concern or otherwise "easily" dealt with by positioning and stutter-stepping. What if movement is a concern?

In terms of identifying what's optimal, a stacking Dia also lowers the skill ceiling, precisely because it makes it easier "to allow you better damage optimized movement." A non-stacking Dia always faces you with the problem of minimizing how many ticks you overwrite or drop. It continually presents you the question and choice between using Dia for movement (or a weave slot, in some world with a better appreciation of how rDPS ought to work), thus losing out on ticks, vs. "git gud" at positioning and stutter-stepping (which takes us back to difficulty of execution). A stacking Dia makes it far more likely that you can just go, "eh, I'm hitting Dia, problem solved."

[Shurrikhan]

[EDIT: Let me try to be more polite...]

I was explaining why they aren't the same. I'm sorry the concept of "Here's how those two things are different" goes over your head.

It didn't go over my head, mate. The issue is that each layer of complexity Dia has over Storm's Eye, the more skill ceiling is likely LOST in removing its priority conflicts from having a preferred time of use.

>> Freeing a skill from priority conflicts decreases skill ceiling to the extent that its complicators would otherwise interact with each other without overwhelming one another, making those priority conflicts

<< But, but, this skill has MORE complicators!

>> And therefore more to lose.

[Renathras]

The skill ceiling is defined by the difficulty in identifying what's optimal within the constraints of a fight and job, and by the difficulty in executing the optimal plan once identified.

Partially. But it also requires ability to choose among options or alter your rotation in response to information/data/mechanics.

You consider a striking dummy, but is that how these things work? Against a striking dummy, BLM is one of the easiest Jobs in the game. A stacking Dia affords flexibility, which is what leads to a higher skill ceiling. Right now, refreshing Dia every 30 sec no matter what is how you play. That's not difficult. You don't move it, so there's no optimization. It's the same thing as saying casting Glare each time the GCD rolls over is skill ceiling (also easy to do against striking dummies, btw). On the other hand, a stacking Dia means you CAN just push it twice and then...refresh it once every 30 seconds. Making it the same difficulty as non-stacking Dia. OR you can refresh it later (with less than 30 seconds remaining). But the consequence of this is that the specific Dia optimal refreshes may now vary from fight to fight or even within a fight during different mechanics. By your metric, it is more difficult to determine what is optimal within the constraints of the fight, and more difficult to execute than current Dia, which is just pressing the button once - never more and never less - every 30 seconds. Something a literal dipping bird could do.

It's kind of like arguing that Energy Drain optimization isn't a higher skill ceiling than having a Dia that isn't connected to AF and just has a 20 sec CD on the ability itself. CLEARLY that would be a lower skill ceiling than present Energy Drain is, and this follows the same principle of "use once on a timer" vs "alter frequency of use in response to the situation".

I think the better way to say it is as I did:

A stacking DoT both lowers the skill floor and raises the skill ceiling at the same time.

I know we all seldom see eye to eye, but I genuinely don't get this argument from you guys. A stacking DoT is only NOT more complex in a target dummy fight, and in a target dummy fight, it's of equal complexity since you'd always refresh it every 30 sec after the first double stack.

...

See above.

You're saying things but they aren't countering my points. You seem to hold that BECAUSE you can refresh it early, this means that there is no optimization possible that current Dia doesn't allow and thus it has a lower skill ceiling. That makes no sense. There's more to potentially optimize, therefore, there's a higher skill ceiling.

Again, Energy Drain with a set 20 sec CD and no resource cost vs current Energy Drain. Which has a higher skill ceiling? An ability with a rigid 20 sec CD and no (effective) resource limit, or an ability with resource limits and that can be used both more frequently or less frequently in response to external situations?