For those who main/semi-main a DPS (e.g. DNC, RDM) but like Healers...

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I mean.. if you know you absolutely cannot refresh the DoT without risking any failure in mech handling and/or dropping the 30s DoT under normal circumstances or for whatever reason you feel the NEED to clip that DoT..… you can always… y’know.. setup a plan from several GCDs earlier?

If you’re on WHM, maybe drop Asylum earlier? Or drop a Lilybell? Or drop Benison on that squishy RDM earlier?
If you’re on SCH, maybe summon seraph 3-4 GCDs before the actual mechanic & DoT refresh window happens? Recitation earlier (this button lasts for 15s, remember? You don’t need to always spend it right away!!!) Spreadlo earlier? Whispering Dawn earlier to let the tick restores sizeable amount of health across the progression of said mechanic?
If you’re on AST, maybe deploy that Neutral Sects earlier, coupled with charged Horoscope? Time that Earthly Star? Time that Macrocosmos?
If you’re on SGE then copy paste what SCH do (largely)?

Turn those DoT into extendable DoT, and suddenly you have just eliminated this ‘30s constraint’ off the button (read: easier) & able to move it anywhere in the timeline when you wish to toss it so long it continues to tick & does not overcap.

[Renathras]

Okay, sure, whatever. Fork it. I don't give a damn if you guys want to keep current Dia and have no change to it even if the change actually would be less braindead. You can have it.

EDIT: I'm just tired of arguing over moronic stuff when people counter arguments with "no, it's easier" and refuse to contemplate any situation where it's not, or the fact that, as I said several times, at worst, it's no easier than now.

"But you can be bad and just always stack it twice to 60!" Yeah, you CAN do that. AND?! That doesn't change the fact it actually has MORE room for optimization. What do you guys say all the time you want? "Low skill floor but high skill ceiling with more room to optimize and show skill expression". Then I propose such a thing, explain how it can be so, and without even entertaining the idea, "NOPE! Because you don't have to refresh it like a metronome with a dipping bird that has a 30 sec period placed over your 2 key, it MUST be easier. SOMEhow! We will not accept any argument!"

Fine, you can have it.

Devs, if you ever read this: The forum has spoken! NEVER EVER EVER change Dia or any of the Healer DoTs because it would be "easier", even if you change it to where it has a higher skill ceiling.

GOD! I'm just done having stupid, drawn out, petty arguments about things where the same people constantly demanding change insist the status quo is somehow higher skill. Even when it's clearly explained to them how the change could have a higher skill ceiling. It's ridiculous and just stupid and it happens every time in these stupid threads.

You can have it.

[Supersnow845]

Because you have presented zero evidence why making your DOT harder to drop counts as a form of skill expression

None of us like current Dia, we like skills that allow us to actually have expression, energy drain is about the only one and even that is terrible and really only works because of the difference between prog and reclears, skills that reward fight knowledge, skills that reward damage for healing and vice versa, interesting damage options, come on we already used to have these things

[Shurrikhan]

Where did I say you couldn't? I was pointing out you could, but [reapplying a DoT for movement when the DoT is already ticking]'s a worse outcome than literally not casting at all.

There are only three circumstances in which that'd be true, none of which are unique to DoTs:

1. The target is invulnerable, thereby wasting your MP if you attack them.
2. The bonus value of the raid buffs that affected the previous application but have since fallen off are greater than the portion of original max duration a reapplication would add.
3. Duration extenders were returned to the game without ANY of the obvious additional polish changes, and your most recent application now has a duration greater than the original maximum duration.

Your claim once again depends on a bizarrely cherry-picked scenario by which to try to problematize <DoTs> or <being rewarded for having made room over prior GCDs and resource usage for an action that would be, in itself, punished to the extent that it is mistimed but around which further nuances may still create differing net-optimal uses>. It therefore looks, smells, and acts like bull.

I said refreshing it early when the duration cannot be extended is a damage loss and thus suboptimal.

But it's literally not a net loss, within the same circumstance that you picked -- needing to move when the DoT is already ticking, with no other mobile skills with which to fill that space.

Your best choice in that particular GCD, then, is to use it, even if at reduced potency, because it's still a net gain. (See above for the only three extremely rare exceptions that are, again, not at all unique to DoTs.)

There simply may likely also have been a better way to deal with time leading up to that GCD that could have handled that whole span of time optimally, instead just doing your best with that singular GCD (already affected by prior error).

Anyway, point is, AT ITS WORST, [allowing DoTs to stack to 60s duration] has the same level of complexity and skill ceiling as right now.

It literally doesn't.

Admittedly, I can see two reasonable ways to define "skill ceiling", with one being more easily quantifiable than the other:

• The first is the sum throughput/performance contribution of deliberate "good" decisions --i.e., the performance gap being playing well and not doing so. Of course, that one could be fairly simple, such as "I always a press a button every GCD, without delay."

  However, if you allow measures to double-dip somewhat, based on how much performance would be lost if X had not been done, rather than only how much extra performance it contributed (which is often subject to diminishing returns), then it tends to correlate with the latter as it likewise marks interdependence and conditionality, which tends to correlate with cognitive load.

• The second is the sum cognitive load of deliberate "good" decisions. That's partly subjective, but tend to have dense enough clustering to nonetheless have a high degree of overall predictability across large sample sizes.

In either case, your DoTs stack to 60s --by making it so that an action need not be tied to the next X seconds, but instead simply allowing/forcing one to fill with that action roughly 60/X times per 60 seconds-- will have reduced the interdependence of your skills and the conditionality by which the best decision for a particular GCD may vary, reduced the weight of most individual decisions and greatly reduced them on the whole by reducing the impact those decisions together have on your performance; that is to say, you will have reduced both the performance dependent on good decisions and the sum cognitive load involved in making those decisions.

The only way I can possibly imagine that your conclusion here isn't made out of hopes and dreams alone is if, again, you focus solely on one's ability to salvage a situation you already done ****ed up.

The same, naturally, goes for Surging Tempest's 60s duration. It does not have the same skill ceiling as the old 30s buff. The stackable version provides fewer than half the points of interaction with other skills and removes almost all risk and accordant reward. And that's within a rigid [combo-based] system that only can produce only one output of value with its GCDs [damage, as Storm Path's own healing is pathetic and gauge can no longer be turned into sustain]. A more versatile and modular kit like a healer's [especially in any situation that could actually make good use of GCD-healing] would be far worse affected.

I'll also ignore that you didn't address Aero 2 never working the way you remembered. It's fine, I screw stuff like that up all the time.

Ffs, dude. I literally specified that I was giving its duration alone, just as I did with Higan, Demolish, and the Healer-standard 30s DoT, as other examples of frequency. I said nothing about it being or not being an instant-cast.

The mere fact that Aero I, Cleric Stance, and Ruin II were not included in that example should already clued you in to its not being a mere historical example. As should have Demolish and Higanbana. They were arbitrary example durations.

Note that I didn't bother to mention the cast time of Higanbana, either, because I literally specified "original Aero II's duration," not "old Aero II", among other example durations.

And you call out Ty as if he were trying to gaslight you with nit-picks? ???

Sorry if ignoring your irrelevant comment to a claim that was never given made you feel bad.

[Shurrikhan]

Devs, if you ever read this: The forum has spoken! NEVER EVER EVER change Dia or any of the Healer DoTs because it would be "easier", even if you change it to where it has a higher skill ceiling.

"I'll take 'Arguments I didn't make literally no one else made' for $500, Alex."

Le sigh....

[Supersnow845]

How many days till ren argues for 5 pages with all of us, throws his hands up then moves to a different argument with the same 5 of us and the cycle repeats again

[ForsakenRoe]

Devs, if you ever read this: The forum has spoken! NEVER EVER EVER change Dia or any of the Healer DoTs because it would be "easier", even if you change it to where it has a higher skill ceiling.

At first I didn't know what you meant, but having read this I agree, there's some definite deja vu going on.

But anyway, please consider WAR, again. Previously, you'd want to line up your GCDs such that you refreshed Eye as close to 0 as possible, to get the maximum extension out of it. Using it with 6 seconds left on the clock would effectively give you 80% of the effectiveness of the refresh, because you'd only 'gain' 24s. You'd delay GCDs by inserting Fell Cleaves, factor in that you needed to have enough time in the bank to do your IR combo, and also get to the 3rd step of the combo before the buff fell off, etc. Now, you can refresh the buff whenever you like, as long as you do it when there's less than 30s on the clock. The only factor to consider is whether the fight ends before your current Eye timer expires, and I guess the 15s extension from IR.

So for Dia, suboptimally, you'd refresh it whenever you like, as long as there's less than 30s remaining. That's fine, for the 'outside of raidbuffs' part. But as you saw when you tried BRD things, refreshing a DOT snapshots it to your current buffs/enemy debuffs (yes, deja vu I remember talking about this thing too), which means that, you'd want to go INTO raidbuffs with 30s on the clock, or as close to it as possible, so that you can spend ONE GCD on refreshing+extending it to 60s, and then Glare/Misery for the rest of the buff window. Following that, you would want to make sure to not refresh it until it FULLY drains out, as doing so would overwrite it's 'buffed' snapshot with 'regular' damage levels. So I don't really get what this idea's meant to solve, you haven't introduced 'new option for mobility', you haven't introduced any new skillcap that wasn't there before (assuming you do your DOTs right as things stand now, doing the exact same timings would naturally 'solve' this new version, you just have to not refresh at x:30), DOTs suck, we get it, but this is not the way to solve em IMO

oh ffs I should have read the whole thread huh, Shurrikan's beat me to it

How many days till ren argues for 5 pages with all of us, throws his hands up then moves to a different argument with the same 5 of us and the cycle repeats again

IDK but at least it's something to do instead of getting brainrot in trying to reclear P12S for the week, I don't think there's a mechanic I hated learning quite as much as Caloric

[Supersnow845]

I still think light rampart was worse to learn (but only because if you did it wrong it just blew up and you saw nothing then everyone died) caloric is not a fun mechanic either

[Shurrikhan]

oh ffs I should have read the whole thread huh, Shurrikan's beat me to it

Hold yourself to that expectation with such long-winded posts as mine and Ren's and you'll go insane.

It's too late for me, but save yourself!
____________

That said, did you get a chance to read that Combust example?

I'll fish it up, in case not. One moment. Ahh, here we go:

I'm cool with virtually any and all changes to AST that would better let it focus on Time-Space Magics and its Cards.

And while I'll agree with Ren that AST was already light on those Time-Space Magics pre-pruning, I honestly think a supportive Healer is the best place to situate those utilities. By far.

That said, the old flavor text for (pre-release?) Combust's (leaked?) tooltip was amazing. It was something like "Birth a theoretical star, growing in size and potency over time to deal damage to nearby enemies."

That? I would love that shit. Especially if you started to add explicit interactions atop it. Imagine if...

• Combust would deal proximity AoE damage (a few expanding radial areas of effect, tapering off by 25% at a time, to a minimum of half damage in the outermost space).
• You could place Combust on allies, enemies, or the ground, though their maximum movement speed slows and may drop off allies and enemies after a certain mass, thereafter becoming stationary. (There is a 2-second warning in which the theoretical sun flickers.)
• Combust would grow from Mana spent near it (following the same ringed model, at similar efficiency), or even more from mana spent directly on it, which can be from attacks or heals.
• The larger Combust grows, the greater its effect (more damage, and the more it would forcibly draw in enemies and accelerate allies' movements towards it), but also the more Mana it needs to keep from bursting.
• Combusts show on and can be targeted via a unique UI component, from which one can also select whether Combust units show as enemies, friendlies, or both. This UI displays the Combust's current and maximum HP on a laterally growing bar, along with an increasingly opaque edge of said HP bar. If their HP hits zero, they sputter out, and that rate of drain increases with size. The maximum reached HP shows their current size, and the actual far edge of bar shows when they'll be forced to implode.
• If two or more Combusts of significantly different size meet, the larger absorbs the smaller. If two or more Combusts of roughly the same size meet, they collectively implode for greater than the sum of their individual implosions' damage.

Now that... would be some fun Time-Space Magics.

It'd siphon a lot of AST's power into that particular tool, especially if we don't do as Taurus spitball-ed earlier and give players control over their kits (say, you have n AP at this level, and can siphon that from active skills to additional minor traits for a lower ceiling to both effort and damage that'll still be a net gain for those who would really struggle with that skill's mechanic), but I like the idea of AST actually being a Time-Space Occult Diviner instead of just another 22 filler and 2 DoT GCDs per minute with some of that would-be potency siphoned over to a gimmick used twice per minute oGCD.

[ForsakenRoe]

That said, did you get a chance to read that Combust example?

I think you might be thinking of this, truly one of the crimes of our lifetimes. Anyway, I cannot fully understand the idea without playing it, but it seems... exceptionally convoluted for a DOT. To the point where I'd say it's not just 'a DOT', but more like the job's identity. Reading this confuses me more than the old HW card effects. Like, you would have to remove the cards entirely to free up the mental load required for this thing, and even then, I'd expect SE would say 'no that is too complex to juggle alongside healing' (and in this case I'd probably agree), so it'd go on Time Mage DPS as 'Singularity' or something. I'm 100% onboard with nuking Combust from AST because it's just boring as hell, if said nuking nets us additional gameplay in alternative parts of the kit more aligned with the identity of the class (ie, the cards), because the one thing Combust COULD have had going for it was integration with the Time Magic stuff like Time Dilation/Celestial Opposition, but now they're gone, so is Combust's reason to exist IMO. If they want to have some kind of... 'this move deals big damage, but in X seconds after you use it' to replace it, that's fine too

edit: re: Time Mage being a potential better fit. Casting Singularity begins the building phase, and you get two balls floating round your head. You'd have two sets of skills, with varying effects, DOTs, direct damage, whatever. One set, let's call it Matter and Antimatter. As you use skills from each of these two sets of skills, you'd do your rotation, but also add matter and antimatter to the two Singularities in varying amounts. You'd have to react on the fly to the levels of each, a bit like RDM mana bars I suppose, but I'd expect the builders to have more unpredictable gain amounts. For example, maybe only one of the two sides has a DOT that fills that side's bar per tick, the other has to be covered with extra casts of the filler spell to compensate. The idea would be, you'd be trying to keep these two Singularities roughly equal in size as with your idea, such that one doesn't just eat the other. Casting Singularity again would allow you to force the two to collide, causing big damage because mixing matter and antimatter does that, and that'd be your burst damage for raidbuffs. Rather than RDM's 50/50 spend, this would be 'consumes whole gauge, scales damage based on amount consumed', and if you imbalance the bars, rather than halving your gain till it's corrected, you'd get some kind of dud result that does big damage, just not as big as it could have been (a Celestial Revolution of sorts, even the name kind of fits). Maybe it sounds all too similar to RDM, but I'd like to think that having some actual Time Mage stuff in there to manipulate how fast you gain Matter/Antimatter (eg, Matter's the side with a DOT, having a way to extend that DOT, or instantly collapse it to get the benefit immediately to emergency-balance the meters) would help set it apart at least a little bit