I was almost in the mood to play FF14 again

[Deo14]

I actually presented arguments

You didn't, you merely corrected my use of hyperbole and wrote like 4 essays so far about it. Just send the links for the "well thought out counters to it having been removed" you talked about so the discussion can actually start. So far we've been just throwing technicalities around without anything meaningful.

[Renathras]

You didn't, you merely corrected my use of hyperbole and wrote like 4 essays so far about it. Just send the links for the "well thought out counters to it having been removed" you talked about so the discussion can actually start. So far we've been just throwing technicalities around without anything meaningful.

I WASN'T REPLYING TO YOU:

Partly a meme, partly rose-tinted goggles, partly some people just like to have something to complain about, and partly some people just liked it.

And I don't mean that to be derisive - some people genuinely liked it - but mechanically, it was like PLD having Fight of Flight and Requiescat. You never used the second without the first, so it didn't bring anything to the table. It also made balance and the auto crit stuff kind of weird and devalued crit and stuff (this was before they implemented the "auto-crit/direct hit abilities do more damage based on crit/direct hit effects" thing, which would have helped with that). It was slightly more involved since it was tied to pooling a resource, but in practice, it was kind of bland in the "you always use these together, why have a second button?" way.

But some people really really liked it. I've also seen very rational and sober minded theorycrafters and guide makers say that it really wasn't all that and explain why they thought so. So both sides have a decent argument to make. (It's funny, I still haven't leveled SAM...but I still have the grayed out version on my bar for posterity. )

You're right, though, that SAM feels very good right now. If you never played with Kaiten and you do like current SAM, don't feel like you have to hate it or should "join the chorus", just keep loving the thing you love. Nothing wrong with that. : )

EDIT:



Believe it or not, the complaints are not unanimous.

Again, there are theory crafters, guide makers, etc that can give reasoned arguments for why Kaiten's removal was not a bad thing/was a good thing. On other forums (not this one for some reason), the position is not unanimous. Reddit, for example, but r/ffxiv and r/ffxivdiscussion (which is more technically minded people discussing mechanics and stuff) has dissent against Kaiten being a good ability.

I'm not saying one way or the other - both sides, imo, have good arguments - but I am saying complaints are not unanimous.

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Oh, and don't get me wrong, I don't know that removing Kaiten WAS a good idea. I'm just pointing out there is more discussion/disagreement on the topic than skimming this forum would suggest.

I wasn't correcting YOUR "use of hyperbole", and I didn't write "like 4 essays". I made a note of it in one post where I was also talking about other things. That post wasn't even responding to you. It was replying to Raikai and Ggwppino, respectively. YOU weren't even part of that conversation.

YOU decided to become party of that conversation and YOU are the one that picked a fight about it and accused me of bad faith and moving goalposts and technicalities, and then refused to admit when you were wrong, which is why I've made several posts to reply to your inability to just say you were wrong in your knee-jerk attack on me in the first place. All you had to do was NOT make that initial knee-jerk post to someone who wasn't addressing you or NOT attack said person or not continue to make posts bashing the person or not try to get off on technicalities when your INITIAL POST was on a technicality you got wrong (accusing me of a goal post move when that was literally the goal post then later trying to weasel out of it with "well, unanimity is just a concept anyway" when it isn't).

And you're still trying to do it.

You're trying to get me to post links so you can attack THEM the same way or, should I not do so, so you can attack me as lying or not having any. You haven't learned the lesson and you're still trying to do the same thing. Because you don't want a good faith discussion. Even after me saying straight up THAT I SUPPORT YOUR OVERALL POSITION:

This is my position as well.

It IS an obsession, people that want it back ARE irrational in how they will lash out at anyone they perceive as preventing that (even if said person has actual arguments or is offering fair rebuttal to them), but I personally don't care. If it made people happy, give it back to them? As long as it isn't making a bunch of other people upset, what's the harm? No one hurt, lots more happy, win-win/net positive.

You can't take the L and, for some reason, you ALSO can't take yes for an answer. Maybe you should at least try doing the latter of those things.

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Have a meager but coherent job (and not even that much since the whole aetherflow system no longer makes sense to exist and doesn't go well with the rest and the carbuncle which is arm candy), or have a "Frankenstein's monster" but that everything had to be reasoned? The second for me, thank you.
And still a job that literally makes you spam a single button for 30 seconds and having 2 out of 3 elementals doing the same stuff I really wouldn't consider it a job well done, maximum ifrit is well reasoned by designers, just as I don't consider a job well done if for 90 levels it stays the same and increases just the powers of the skills.

And yes, I agree, if they hadn't done the crap of reworking a job by not considering the old smn players looking for a certain challenges, the new smn wouldn't have been hated so deeply. At least by me.

Small parenthesis that I don't want to dwell on too much. The protagonist is the sam and how slowly they are emptying it.

I agree that Aetherflow on new SMN seems mostly vestigial (just have Painflaire - which is SMN aesthetically since it's a Bahamut attack - as a 30 sec oGCD that stacks to 2 charges and have Further Ruin/Ruin IV triggered by Summoning Baha/Phoenix (so it's still 1 per min) and it would make a lot more sense.

I don't consider SMN meager, it's actually a functional and intuitive Job, which is probably why it's one of the most played. It's the only Caster you don't actually need to read an internet guide on a third party site that was developed using non-ToS compliant tools to get good performance (50+) from. You can literally read the tooltips and figure it out on your own and be fairly close to what theorycrafters can do, which means a well designed Job. Jobs that require third party tools and out-of-game guides to get good at are, imo, not well designed. SMN has some nuance to it and a rotation that has solid anchor points (Summons) while also being flexible in the order you play out the module/segments of it (Primals) which allows skill expression by choosing when to use the different parts. Contrast with something like DRG which is hyper rigid so you have little you can adjust to reward fight knowledge, or DNC/BRD where there are so many procs that you can barely exercise foresight at all.

SMN and PLD both have a good system where the parts of the rotation can be moved, meaning players thinking ahead can adapt to get better performance. SMN also has a bit of optimization somewhat on par (somewhat) with SCH's Energy Drain in its own use of Festers. That is, it's not optimal to ED+2xFester in the Baha/Phoenix phases. It's optimal to Energy Drain in each, but hold the Festers you get from the odd minutes (Phoenix) until you get into raid buffs on the even minute (Baha), spend the two Festers then ED then two more Festers. It's also optimal to use Titan under raid buffs UNLESS the fight is such that you need that movement later within the cycle, meaning each 2 min cycle you have a chance for optimization via fight knowledge of whether to use Titan for max damage or to use Ifrit if that's the safest time to do so so you have better uptime later. Further, even if you do an Ifrit at the wrong time, you can improve with that as well by placing your Ruin IV and/or Swifcasts there.

SMN has more depth than people actually give it credit for. The thing is, the depth is INTUITIVE (which means good design) and not clunky, and for some reason some people think "mastering clunk" is skill, and the gap between doing it right or doing it wrong is fairly small (unless you're so bad you're dropping Primals or drifting Demis really bad; though there IS actually a build which optimizes on that). But it's deeper than most people's initial analysis gives it credit. It'd be like saying you an play RDM by going to 50/50 then melee phase and doing that over and over. Yeah, you CAN, but that's hardly optimized. Knowing when to and not to do your melee combo, which abilities to use to bend proc RNG into your favor, etc, are all important skills which give the Job depth despite that.

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In accordance with my general viewpoint, though, I think the harder/less intuitive Jobs also should absolutely be in the game. Because I 100% get that many people enjoy that and I want things in the game that diverse people can enjoy. But I don't think it's the best design.

Old SMN was a mashup of "we're adding a new mechanic this expansion and don't care if it actually synergizes with the existing kit or not" done 3 times. It somehow still worked, but very few people would have figured out how to play it anywhere close to correctly without guides.

Also - more hyperbole - there's no point in SMN's rotation where you press only one button for 30 seconds. Nor do 2 out of 3 elements do "the same stuff". That's like saying BLM's Thunder and Fire spells both "just do damage" so it's the same, regardless of how the cadence differs between them or the mechanics associated with the abilities.

I do think - and will die on this hill - that new SMN should have been added as Evoker or something, and if they REALLY wanted it to be "Summoner" (since old SMN really WASN'T very Summoner-y), they should have retained the old gameplay by making IT the new Job (Green Mage would have been pretty fitting for a poison and debilitating mechanic Job). They shouldn't have just removed it.

I'm pretty much always against blanket removal of things - old SMN, old PLD, old Kaiten - and in general, I think the game is better when things are being added to it instead of taken from it. They literally did a total rework of SMN to the point they could have added it outright as a new Job (just give old SMN some potency boosts, new VFX, and some oGCD that gives them a full 4 stacks of Further Ruin and let them play with that). Would have made a lot fewer people upset to almost do nothing with old SMN vs to remove it.

It's why I'm worried about the DRG remake, since they're giving it the same explanation as SMN "We weren't sure where else we could go with it". Pretty sure if they asked the community, the community would have some ideas. And hell, if a Job is "essentially perfect", WHY CHANGE IT? "It needs something new every expansion like everyone else" is not a compelling argument to me if it means moving AWAY from perfection.

[Deo14]

Bruh, just send the goddamn links you were talking about at the beginning.

Don't try your deflections, this thread has just 6 pages, anyone can read it through to get enough context, you won't fool anyone.

[Renathras]

Bruh, take the L.

If THIS is what you want for "discourse" or "argument", then I can oblige in dishing your own medicine back at you.

The fact you WANT to attack someone LITERALLY saying they want you to get your whiny cry-baby way is just you being beyond stupid. The only one trying to "fool" people is you. Anyone reading this can see you've been arguing in bad faith, you attacked me for no reason, you butted into a conversation you weren't involved in or mentioned in, you belittled me repeatedly in posts up to and including posting a whining gif, you made it about you, then you cried about technicalities and tried to attack me more to save face instead of just admitting you were wrong.

Get over yourself.

[Deo14]

Bruh, take the L.

What L? I backed up all my claims, while you were ranting about some irrelevant technicalities. Your only argument was:

Again, there are theory crafters, guide makers, etc that can give reasoned arguments for why Kaiten's removal was not a bad thing/was a good thing. On other forums (not this one for some reason), the position is not unanimous. Reddit, for example, but r/ffxiv and r/ffxivdiscussion (which is more technically minded people discussing mechanics and stuff) has dissent against Kaiten being a good ability.

And you have yet to provide source. Even if you disagree with everything I say, what's holding you from just linking it? Surely you didn't made this up, did you?

[ZiraZ]

Bruh, take the L.

Are you a parody account?
I've never seen so much brainlet drivel with nothing to back anything up in a thread about SAM when you don't even have a 90 SAM while constantly being dead wrong about everything
You do know the mount is for 2k mentor roulettes and not 2k posts right?

[Deo14]

Are you a parody account?
I've never seen so much brainlet drivel with nothing to back anything up in a thread about SAM when you don't even have a 90 SAM while constantly being dead wrong about everything
You do know the mount is for 2k mentor roulettes and not 2k posts right?

I don't think he is, even though his essays do give the ChatGPT vibes. He always makes his mind at the start, and then never backs down, no matter what. He even claimed that BLM cannot slidecast, and when few people politely corrected him, he did same thing as he's doing here and tried to defend himself by any means necessary. Then people start to make fun of him for it, then he throws tantrum. Next week comes, and he does that again.

This is the lengths he's willing to go to prove he's right:

I mean, people that spend 10+ hours a day and don't min max are generally called casuals, yes. Seems like my definition checks out.

[Renathras]

What L? I backed up all my claims,

You backed up ALL your claims?

You mean when you accused me of moving a goalpost and I pointed out that was the actual conversation so it wasn't a goalpost move? When did you back up that claim?

When you said there was unanimous agreement that removing Kaiten was bad? When did you back up that claim? You even had to walk it back to "unanimous is just a concept".

You didn't back up all your claims. You didn't back any of them up in your replies to me. As I shot them down, instead of acknowledging it, you kept bringing up more things - mostly insults and personal attacks - that you also couldn't back up.

And you have yet to provide source. Even if you disagree with everything I say, what's holding you from just linking it? Surely you didn't made this up, did you?

Because you won't read them in good faith. YOU JUST SAID SO in General:

Come on, just link it, I want to have a good laugh about what some theory crafters and guide makers think about job design.

Why should I bother going through the forums and YouTube videos I've watched and read over THIS LAST YEAR to find the specific links just for you to mock them and discard them? And the point is, it's not even RELEVANT. The point I was making - which you've since conceded while pretending not to - is that there is not unanimous agreement removing Kaiten was bad. I already proved THAT by pointing out someone in General saying so. Even one person technically breaks unanimity. And by you saying it's just a concept, you even admitted that you know it's not a unanimous position.

MEANING I proved my point and you even admitted it while trying to pretend not to.

I don't live and breathe Kaiten like you do. Meaning I don't save links to discussions about it with the intent of posting them in random places later. I know Mr Happy mentioned it, I believe Wesk Alber mentioned it, and in any given Reddit thread or non-DPS forum thread here where Kaiten is discussed, there are people saying that it being removed wasn't the worst thing ever and that Kaiten itself wasn't an interesting or enjoyable ability, or wasn't mechanically that great. Most will say the issue is having so much gauge now and nothing to spend it on, leading to over-spam which is boring - a similar argument to SCH with Faerie gauge being useless - but not not that Kaiten should be returned, per se. I already posted you one from General, though. You just ignored that.

Are you a parody account?
I've never seen so much brainlet drivel with nothing to back anything up in a thread about SAM when you don't even have a 90 SAM while constantly being dead wrong about everything
You do know the mount is for 2k mentor roulettes and not 2k posts right?

Are you a parody account?
I've never seen so much brainlet drivel with nothing to back anything up in a thread about SAM when you don't even have an argument while constantly being dead wrong about everything
You do know the mount is for 2k mentor roulettes and not 200 posts right?

In short, Dio, your argument is this:

You: "There's unanimous agreement!"
Me: "No there's not."
You: "YES THERE IS!"
Me: "No, there's not."
You: "PROVE IT!"
Me: <proves it>
You: "UNANIMITY IS JUST A CONCEPT!! GIVE ME LINKS TO PEOPLE DISAGREEING!!!"
Me: <quotes people disagreeing>
You: "DOESN'T COUNT! I NEED LINKS TO VIDEOS AND THEORYCRAFTERS AND STUFF!!"
Me: "Why? You won't listen to them and you won't accept the argument that you were wrong on it being unanimous agreement..."
YOU: "POST THEM!!"
Me: "Again, you're just going to mock or attack them. And I don't live and breath Kaiten so I don't have them bookmarked so would have to take time to find them again."
You: "POST THEM SO I CAN LAUGH AT THEM!!!"
Me: "Dude, the argument was whether or not there's unanimous agreement with Kaiten removal being bad, not people trying to give you something to mock."
You: <post crying memes and (more) ridicule>

You're arguing in bad faith. FOUR TIMES you've brought up things from outside this thread to discredit me rather than just admit you were wrong.

And this is how you treat someone...WHO IS AGREEING WITH YOU on bringing Kaiten back!

You're unhinged.

[Deo14]

Why should I bother going through the forums and YouTube videos I've watched and read over THIS LAST YEAR to find the specific links just for you to mock them and discard them? And the point is, it's not even RELEVANT. The point I was making - which you've since conceded while pretending not to - is that there is not unanimous agreement removing Kaiten was bad. I already proved THAT by pointing out someone in General saying so. Even one person technically breaks unanimity. And by you saying it's just a concept, you even admitted that you know it's not a unanimous position.

So you watched some videos about SAM year ago, even though that you still don't have leveled SAM now? You just listened to some videos, while not even knowing how SAM works, and somehow made a conclusion out of it? You just took the author's opinions, without crosschecking with your own knowledge? That's very gullible behaviour, you should first level SAM, play it long enough to get your own opinions, then look up some theory crafters and see if you agree with them or not.

When it comes to providing sources, I did the same for you when you asked me for the source of those numbers in the "Just Quit" thread few weeks back, then you discarded them. Maybe give me back favour? Nevertheless, it's not for me, it's for your redemption, what kind of image do you think you put when you claim something but don't back it up? Also, I wasn't only one who asked you to prove it:

Genuinely curious, could you quote some of these counters? Or are you saying counters in support of it being a bad idea it was removed? Almost every single discussion regarding kaiten I've seen has been against it's removal, or at least pointing out how its removal does nothing of substance. The few posts/comments I have seen that are for kaiten removal were pretty obvious rage bait.

She was very nice to you, much nicer than you deserve, so why won't you give those links to her?

MEANING I proved my point and you even admitted it while trying to pretend not to.

Who could have possibly guess that from multiple million players, there's more than 0 amount of people who agree with Kaiten removal? Great, what did you prove by it? Are you ready to start actual discussion?

Where did you even get that I said unanimously?

What I said is

[Bunch of nonsense, justifying change that commnuity pretty much unanimously disagrees with, and devs have yet to respond to us, after they specifically asked for feedback]

Can you see the "pretty much" part? So why did you started to rant about some 100%? How can phrase "pretty much unanimously" portray same thing as unanimously by itself?

How about asking our little friend about it?


So you try to go after technicalities just to prove your argument, but you fail even at that.