I was almost in the mood to play FF14 again

[Deo14]

If you people would stop using hyperbole like "unanimous" to bolster your argument, no one would need to point out it's not, in fact, unanimous. You can't use something as an argument in support of your position then get upset when someone shows that argument is faulty.

I feel like you're the kind of guy who sees "100% orange juice" and start yelling at the store manager, saying that they're lying, because there is not such a thing as 100% in real world. Yes, words like unanimous, perfect and similar are mere concepts, nothing is ever perfect or unanimous, should we stop using them so you're happy? Can you start going after arguments, instead going after technicalities for once? Attack the idea, not technicalities. Especially since this isn't some br*tish or USA forums, english is second language for many, don't expect that everyone knows exact definition of every common word.

Will you finally link those "well thought out counters to it having been removed", I'm still waiting for them.

[Renathras]

I would say absolutely not. The smn just missed badly in depth.

SMN is fine as a Job, and the most I've enjoyed SMN since 2.5. Each expansion after made the Job worse and worse, and now it's back to being coherent again. I do think it should have been a separate Job and the mess that was old SMN retained in some way for people that liked it, but in vacuum, if it had just been added as a new Job so the jaded old SMN players who loved that Frankenstein's monster held together by duct tape and wishes weren't up in arms about losing the thing they loved, it'd be far less hated than it is now since it would be looked at largely as RDM/DNC 2.0. RDM was also called easy and barebones, but people liked it, and its original forms did NOT have much more depth (or any more depth) than current SMN.

I feel like you're the kind of guy who sees "100% orange juice" and start yelling at the store manager,

No, I'm not.

When you're engaged in a discussion, and you're employing RAMPANT hyperbole to support a position, it's fair for someone to point out you shouldn't be doing that and you're wrong. When you're using it as one of the KEY ARGUMENTS in favor of your position, it's MORE than fair for people to point out it's wrong. And when you accuse them of moving goalposts and other ad hominems, trying to bring up completely unrelated discussions and so on to discredit them instead of just admitting "Yes, we're lying to get what we want", then there's reason for them to not give you the time of day AFTER pointing it out.

Unanimous isn't a "mere concept". Rare it is, but there are some things that everyone agrees on. There are times that Parliament/Congress holds a vote and there are no dissenting voices. There are times that groups of people have complete agreement on specific points of things. Some things are, in fact, sometimes unanimous. Meaning when you say unanimous, that actually means something. It means no one disagrees and there is no dissent, PERIOD.

And yes, you shouldn't use such a thing when it's not true.

That's when you use terms like majority or plurality, though for that, you need some kind of official source or tally, not a non-scientific poll equivalent of counting Likes in a medium that has no controls for people voting more than once, brigading votes to overinflate a position, or so on, which we do not in fact have.

And it's LAUGHABLE you're one to ask me to go after arguments instead of technicalities "for once" when I actually presented arguments and your "rebuttals" to me here have all been on technicalities! "Attack the idea, not technicalities" would carry far more weight if not coming from a person who accused me of moving a goal post when I addressed directly someone ELSE'S argument, who then attacked me for not having a max leveled SAM for a topic (seeing if people disagree in forums or not) that doesn't require having a Job leveled to see.

You aren't arguing in good faith and anything I present to you you're going to ignore or also attack, same as you ignored me giving you the player numbers (you didn't even bother to attack the sources, you just ignored I gave it to you so you could lie about it later bringing it up into different discussions).

I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge that so I'm not wasting my time. Because I'm pretty sure if I give you ANY source you're going to attack it/ignore it anyway. "Well, this one only mentioned Kaiten in passing", "Was this person a SAM main? CLEARLY their opinion doesn't count!", etc etc. Heck, in that thread in General are people saying Kaiten being removed was good and saying why they thought so, and you ignored them. If you're just going to ignore such statements, what's the point in showing them to you?

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And the messed up thing is: I personally don't care either way and would be fine with them returning Kaiten.

I literally have no figurative horse in this race, but you're attacking me for merely pointing out that some of the complaints against Kaiten removal aren't well founded and that there are people that agreed with its removal.

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EDIT: My position, as posted there:

This is my position as well.

It IS an obsession, people that want it back ARE irrational in how they will lash out at anyone they perceive as preventing that (even if said person has actual arguments or is offering fair rebuttal to them), but I personally don't care. If it made people happy, give it back to them? As long as it isn't making a bunch of other people upset, what's the harm? No one hurt, lots more happy, win-win/net positive.

[Deo14]

I actually presented arguments

You didn't, you merely corrected my use of hyperbole and wrote like 4 essays so far about it. Just send the links for the "well thought out counters to it having been removed" you talked about so the discussion can actually start. So far we've been just throwing technicalities around without anything meaningful.

[Renathras]

You didn't, you merely corrected my use of hyperbole and wrote like 4 essays so far about it. Just send the links for the "well thought out counters to it having been removed" you talked about so the discussion can actually start. So far we've been just throwing technicalities around without anything meaningful.

I WASN'T REPLYING TO YOU:

Partly a meme, partly rose-tinted goggles, partly some people just like to have something to complain about, and partly some people just liked it.

And I don't mean that to be derisive - some people genuinely liked it - but mechanically, it was like PLD having Fight of Flight and Requiescat. You never used the second without the first, so it didn't bring anything to the table. It also made balance and the auto crit stuff kind of weird and devalued crit and stuff (this was before they implemented the "auto-crit/direct hit abilities do more damage based on crit/direct hit effects" thing, which would have helped with that). It was slightly more involved since it was tied to pooling a resource, but in practice, it was kind of bland in the "you always use these together, why have a second button?" way.

But some people really really liked it. I've also seen very rational and sober minded theorycrafters and guide makers say that it really wasn't all that and explain why they thought so. So both sides have a decent argument to make. (It's funny, I still haven't leveled SAM...but I still have the grayed out version on my bar for posterity. )

You're right, though, that SAM feels very good right now. If you never played with Kaiten and you do like current SAM, don't feel like you have to hate it or should "join the chorus", just keep loving the thing you love. Nothing wrong with that. : )

EDIT:



Believe it or not, the complaints are not unanimous.

Again, there are theory crafters, guide makers, etc that can give reasoned arguments for why Kaiten's removal was not a bad thing/was a good thing. On other forums (not this one for some reason), the position is not unanimous. Reddit, for example, but r/ffxiv and r/ffxivdiscussion (which is more technically minded people discussing mechanics and stuff) has dissent against Kaiten being a good ability.

I'm not saying one way or the other - both sides, imo, have good arguments - but I am saying complaints are not unanimous.

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Oh, and don't get me wrong, I don't know that removing Kaiten WAS a good idea. I'm just pointing out there is more discussion/disagreement on the topic than skimming this forum would suggest.

I wasn't correcting YOUR "use of hyperbole", and I didn't write "like 4 essays". I made a note of it in one post where I was also talking about other things. That post wasn't even responding to you. It was replying to Raikai and Ggwppino, respectively. YOU weren't even part of that conversation.

YOU decided to become party of that conversation and YOU are the one that picked a fight about it and accused me of bad faith and moving goalposts and technicalities, and then refused to admit when you were wrong, which is why I've made several posts to reply to your inability to just say you were wrong in your knee-jerk attack on me in the first place. All you had to do was NOT make that initial knee-jerk post to someone who wasn't addressing you or NOT attack said person or not continue to make posts bashing the person or not try to get off on technicalities when your INITIAL POST was on a technicality you got wrong (accusing me of a goal post move when that was literally the goal post then later trying to weasel out of it with "well, unanimity is just a concept anyway" when it isn't).

And you're still trying to do it.

You're trying to get me to post links so you can attack THEM the same way or, should I not do so, so you can attack me as lying or not having any. You haven't learned the lesson and you're still trying to do the same thing. Because you don't want a good faith discussion. Even after me saying straight up THAT I SUPPORT YOUR OVERALL POSITION:

This is my position as well.

It IS an obsession, people that want it back ARE irrational in how they will lash out at anyone they perceive as preventing that (even if said person has actual arguments or is offering fair rebuttal to them), but I personally don't care. If it made people happy, give it back to them? As long as it isn't making a bunch of other people upset, what's the harm? No one hurt, lots more happy, win-win/net positive.

You can't take the L and, for some reason, you ALSO can't take yes for an answer. Maybe you should at least try doing the latter of those things.

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Have a meager but coherent job (and not even that much since the whole aetherflow system no longer makes sense to exist and doesn't go well with the rest and the carbuncle which is arm candy), or have a "Frankenstein's monster" but that everything had to be reasoned? The second for me, thank you.
And still a job that literally makes you spam a single button for 30 seconds and having 2 out of 3 elementals doing the same stuff I really wouldn't consider it a job well done, maximum ifrit is well reasoned by designers, just as I don't consider a job well done if for 90 levels it stays the same and increases just the powers of the skills.

And yes, I agree, if they hadn't done the crap of reworking a job by not considering the old smn players looking for a certain challenges, the new smn wouldn't have been hated so deeply. At least by me.

Small parenthesis that I don't want to dwell on too much. The protagonist is the sam and how slowly they are emptying it.

I agree that Aetherflow on new SMN seems mostly vestigial (just have Painflaire - which is SMN aesthetically since it's a Bahamut attack - as a 30 sec oGCD that stacks to 2 charges and have Further Ruin/Ruin IV triggered by Summoning Baha/Phoenix (so it's still 1 per min) and it would make a lot more sense.

I don't consider SMN meager, it's actually a functional and intuitive Job, which is probably why it's one of the most played. It's the only Caster you don't actually need to read an internet guide on a third party site that was developed using non-ToS compliant tools to get good performance (50+) from. You can literally read the tooltips and figure it out on your own and be fairly close to what theorycrafters can do, which means a well designed Job. Jobs that require third party tools and out-of-game guides to get good at are, imo, not well designed. SMN has some nuance to it and a rotation that has solid anchor points (Summons) while also being flexible in the order you play out the module/segments of it (Primals) which allows skill expression by choosing when to use the different parts. Contrast with something like DRG which is hyper rigid so you have little you can adjust to reward fight knowledge, or DNC/BRD where there are so many procs that you can barely exercise foresight at all.

SMN and PLD both have a good system where the parts of the rotation can be moved, meaning players thinking ahead can adapt to get better performance. SMN also has a bit of optimization somewhat on par (somewhat) with SCH's Energy Drain in its own use of Festers. That is, it's not optimal to ED+2xFester in the Baha/Phoenix phases. It's optimal to Energy Drain in each, but hold the Festers you get from the odd minutes (Phoenix) until you get into raid buffs on the even minute (Baha), spend the two Festers then ED then two more Festers. It's also optimal to use Titan under raid buffs UNLESS the fight is such that you need that movement later within the cycle, meaning each 2 min cycle you have a chance for optimization via fight knowledge of whether to use Titan for max damage or to use Ifrit if that's the safest time to do so so you have better uptime later. Further, even if you do an Ifrit at the wrong time, you can improve with that as well by placing your Ruin IV and/or Swifcasts there.

SMN has more depth than people actually give it credit for. The thing is, the depth is INTUITIVE (which means good design) and not clunky, and for some reason some people think "mastering clunk" is skill, and the gap between doing it right or doing it wrong is fairly small (unless you're so bad you're dropping Primals or drifting Demis really bad; though there IS actually a build which optimizes on that). But it's deeper than most people's initial analysis gives it credit. It'd be like saying you an play RDM by going to 50/50 then melee phase and doing that over and over. Yeah, you CAN, but that's hardly optimized. Knowing when to and not to do your melee combo, which abilities to use to bend proc RNG into your favor, etc, are all important skills which give the Job depth despite that.

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In accordance with my general viewpoint, though, I think the harder/less intuitive Jobs also should absolutely be in the game. Because I 100% get that many people enjoy that and I want things in the game that diverse people can enjoy. But I don't think it's the best design.

Old SMN was a mashup of "we're adding a new mechanic this expansion and don't care if it actually synergizes with the existing kit or not" done 3 times. It somehow still worked, but very few people would have figured out how to play it anywhere close to correctly without guides.

Also - more hyperbole - there's no point in SMN's rotation where you press only one button for 30 seconds. Nor do 2 out of 3 elements do "the same stuff". That's like saying BLM's Thunder and Fire spells both "just do damage" so it's the same, regardless of how the cadence differs between them or the mechanics associated with the abilities.

I do think - and will die on this hill - that new SMN should have been added as Evoker or something, and if they REALLY wanted it to be "Summoner" (since old SMN really WASN'T very Summoner-y), they should have retained the old gameplay by making IT the new Job (Green Mage would have been pretty fitting for a poison and debilitating mechanic Job). They shouldn't have just removed it.

I'm pretty much always against blanket removal of things - old SMN, old PLD, old Kaiten - and in general, I think the game is better when things are being added to it instead of taken from it. They literally did a total rework of SMN to the point they could have added it outright as a new Job (just give old SMN some potency boosts, new VFX, and some oGCD that gives them a full 4 stacks of Further Ruin and let them play with that). Would have made a lot fewer people upset to almost do nothing with old SMN vs to remove it.

It's why I'm worried about the DRG remake, since they're giving it the same explanation as SMN "We weren't sure where else we could go with it". Pretty sure if they asked the community, the community would have some ideas. And hell, if a Job is "essentially perfect", WHY CHANGE IT? "It needs something new every expansion like everyone else" is not a compelling argument to me if it means moving AWAY from perfection.

[Deo14]

Bruh, just send the goddamn links you were talking about at the beginning.

Don't try your deflections, this thread has just 6 pages, anyone can read it through to get enough context, you won't fool anyone.

[Renathras]

Bruh, take the L.

If THIS is what you want for "discourse" or "argument", then I can oblige in dishing your own medicine back at you.

The fact you WANT to attack someone LITERALLY saying they want you to get your whiny cry-baby way is just you being beyond stupid. The only one trying to "fool" people is you. Anyone reading this can see you've been arguing in bad faith, you attacked me for no reason, you butted into a conversation you weren't involved in or mentioned in, you belittled me repeatedly in posts up to and including posting a whining gif, you made it about you, then you cried about technicalities and tried to attack me more to save face instead of just admitting you were wrong.

Get over yourself.

[Deo14]

Bruh, take the L.

What L? I backed up all my claims, while you were ranting about some irrelevant technicalities. Your only argument was:

Again, there are theory crafters, guide makers, etc that can give reasoned arguments for why Kaiten's removal was not a bad thing/was a good thing. On other forums (not this one for some reason), the position is not unanimous. Reddit, for example, but r/ffxiv and r/ffxivdiscussion (which is more technically minded people discussing mechanics and stuff) has dissent against Kaiten being a good ability.

And you have yet to provide source. Even if you disagree with everything I say, what's holding you from just linking it? Surely you didn't made this up, did you?

[ZiraZ]

Bruh, take the L.

Are you a parody account?
I've never seen so much brainlet drivel with nothing to back anything up in a thread about SAM when you don't even have a 90 SAM while constantly being dead wrong about everything
You do know the mount is for 2k mentor roulettes and not 2k posts right?

[Ggwppino]

SMN is fine as a Job, and the most I've enjoyed SMN since 2.5. Each expansion after made the Job worse and worse, and now it's back to being coherent again. I do think it should have been a separate Job and the mess that was old SMN retained in some way for people that liked it, but in vacuum, if it had just been added as a new Job so the jaded old SMN players who loved that Frankenstein's monster held together by duct tape and wishes weren't up in arms about losing the thing they loved, it'd be far less hated than it is now since it would be looked at largely as RDM/DNC 2.0. RDM was also called easy and barebones, but people liked it, and its original forms did NOT have much more depth (or any more depth) than current SMN.

Have a meager but coherent job (and not even that much since the whole aetherflow system no longer makes sense to exist and doesn't go well with the rest and the carbuncle which is arm candy), or have a "Frankenstein's monster" but that everything had to be reasoned? The second for me, thank you.
And still a job that literally makes you spam a single button for 30 seconds and having 2 out of 3 elementals doing the same stuff I really wouldn't consider it a job well done, maximum ifrit is well reasoned by designers, just as I don't consider a job well done if for 90 levels it stays the same and increases just the powers of the skills.

And yes, I agree, if they hadn't done the crap of reworking a job by not considering the old smn players looking for a certain challenges, the new smn wouldn't have been hated so deeply. At least by me.

Small parenthesis that I don't want to dwell on too much. The protagonist is the sam and how slowly they are emptying it.