I was almost in the mood to play FF14 again

[Battler-Ushiromiya]

But then I remembered SAM doesn't have Kaiten any more, so the mood disappeared and I played a different game instead.

Good, I'm happy kaiten is gone. Stop crying about your crit button girls don't think it's cool lol

[Deo14]

Good, I'm happy kaiten is gone. Stop crying about your crit button girls don't think it's cool lol

..........

The few posts/comments I have seen that are for kaiten removal were pretty obvious rage bait.

[Absurdity]

Freestyle samurai seems to originate from one singular person, then it got memed on and the legend of freestyle samurai started. It's very hyperbolical example of someone who was really just mashing his button as he wanted, but difficulty of playing SAM has definitely lowered significantly since that time, so we are getting closer and closer to the legendary freestyle samurai. Long story short, my comment was just a hyperbole.

I wouldn't be surprised if that term became a thing in late Stormblood where the high skillspeed shinten spam SAM was a legitimate playstyle that put out competitive numbers while being basically just button mashing.

[Renathras]

Could you start engaging discussions with actual arguments, instead of moving goalposts wherever you desire with stuff like ""Akshually, I meant that 100% of people doesn't agree with it".

Goalpost move??

So is it stupid that your job, most likely main, got neutered overnight because they woke up crooked? So is it silly that with unanimous complaints, designers and devs have blatantly ignored community feedback? Maybe he's one of the least stupid, maybe.

Believe it or not, the complaints are not unanimous.

Again, there are theory crafters, guide makers, etc that can give reasoned arguments for why Kaiten's removal was not a bad thing/was a good thing. On other forums (not this one for some reason), the position is not unanimous. Reddit, for example, but r/ffxiv and r/ffxivdiscussion (which is more technically minded people discussing mechanics and stuff) has dissent against Kaiten being a good ability.

I'm not saying one way or the other - both sides, imo, have good arguments - but I am saying complaints are not unanimous.

.

Oh, and don't get me wrong, I don't know that removing Kaiten WAS a good idea. I'm just pointing out there is more discussion/disagreement on the topic than skimming this forum would suggest.

That was LITERALLY the goalpost!

If you people would stop using hyperbole like "unanimous" to bolster your argument, no one would need to point out it's not, in fact, unanimous. You can't use something as an argument in support of your position then get upset when someone shows that argument is faulty.

There ARE arguments to make to bring Kaiten back. Claiming that everyone agrees it should be back is not one of them. It's literally that simple. It's the same reason we had that discussion in the Healer thread, because people there were (and still are/do) trying to rest their argument on the force of unanimity that doesn't exist.

But who am I kidding, you never have a good argument, you just try to discredit the person you're arguing with and use that to support discarding their argument without actually addressing it: The definition of an ad hominem fallacy.

And what are you talking about? I posted the data with links quite some time ago on the player numbers. I referenced the Bancho numbers and the Wayback Machine ones. o.O Why even bother giving you links when you're going to pretend they didn't exist?

.

Anyway, I've already made my case. There are arguments on both sides, there is not unanimous support for bringing it back, and people miss it for various reasons including but not limited to the animation, the feel of it in the rotation, the spam it's been replaced with, the big dopamine hit it would give, the complexity some people felt it added to the Job, rose-tinted goggles, and memes.

But, as you want to throw down the gauntlet, and since we're bringing up other threads and parts of the forum now for REASONS, I think someone in general (who I often disagree with), said it best:

Discussing a topic you are passionate about in one thread is not the same thing as being so obsessed with one skill in a video game that you feel the need to post numerous threads about it over the course of months, if not longer. (I'm not looking through their post history as I value my sanity)

yeah this obsession is weird, miss me out on that, really cringe at this point tbh

I don't typically agree with either of these people, but they kind of called this one right.

Kaiten itself wasn't really a very interesting button, it just offered a different button to press than Shinten. So instead of reimplementing Kaiten, why not design a better ability that uses Kenki? That solves the actual issue at hand while also making SAM more interesting than either pre or post Kaiten removal.

.

I was just replying to two people earlier in the thread, one who asked a question and one who presented an over-broad unanimity argument. The rest from there is up to other people. o/

[Shurrikhan]

I wouldn't be surprised if that term became a thing in late Stormblood where the high skillspeed shinten spam SAM was a legitimate playstyle that put out competitive numbers while being basically just button mashing.

This is a bit of a conflation. Stormblood high-SkS SAM spent a smaller portion of its Kenki on Shinten because Hagakure's resource-per-minute did not scale with SkS. Its portion of damage coming from Shinten was even smaller still, as their dominant secondary stat (SkS) doesn't affect oGCD damage. Finally, though, it wasn't much less complex, as it still tried to maximize Hagakure's resource-per-minute, to only faintly less punishment (since, again, it got less value out of all Kenki spenders except Kaiten) than Crit/DHit builds.

High SkS SAM was competitive... if played optimally. High SkS SAM played by "basically button mashing" was not competitive.

[Spigg]

I don't typically agree with either of these people, but they kind of called this one right.

Kaiten itself wasn't really a very interesting button, it just offered a different button to press than Shinten. So instead of reimplementing Kaiten, why not design a better ability that uses Kenki? That solves the actual issue at hand while also making SAM more interesting than either pre or post Kaiten removal.

This is a argument, but I wouldn't exactly call it an argument for kaiten's removal; Its more... arguing for a rework of kaiten. But let's break it down:

People are protesting against the removal of kaiten, but I don't think kaiten's removal is exactly what offends them... Its the gaping hole in samurai's rotation where kaiten used to be which is causing a lot of SAM players to be enraged, myself included. As the protestors have made it abundantly clear, every single reason listed by SE for kaiten's removal doesn't make sense, and we have never had a proper response from the dev team, so they are mad. If SE responded by adding a new and interesting ability to fill that gaping hole... I don't think anyone would be nearly as angry (Of course some people would, but there is always going to be someone upset when change happens).

That being said... what would be a good thing to replace kaiten? IE, not something that is just [SPEND X AMOUNT OF KENKI, DEAL X POTENCY] with a cd. Sure, kaiten does seem like a basic skill... but it did do a pretty good job at what it was designed to do: Make sure you are managing your kenki right so you do proper damage with your big hitting attacks. I'm not even against this comment... I'm sure there are plenty of great ideas on kaiten reworks that would make SAM more fun and more engaging. I would be interested to hear ideas on potential abilities/reworks that would do what kaiten did, but better.

In essence of everything I just said, while that quote is an interesting discussion, it isn't really a argument for samurai's current condition, nor is it a counter to the "Bring back Kaiten" movement.

Edit:

After finishing writing this comment, I went and actually read the entirety of the post that Renathras was quoting... and the one line he removed from this paragraph is basically a summary of what this entire comment was about LOL

Most of the people that were mad over its removal aren't even really that mad about Kaiten itself, they're mad that SAM's rotation has devolved into Shinten spam. Kaiten itself wasn't really a very interesting button, it just offered a different button to press than Shinten. So instead of reimplementing Kaiten, why not design a better ability that uses Kenki? That solves the actual issue at hand while also making SAM more interesting than either pre or post Kaiten removal.

(There is still more to this post I'm not quoting)

I don't entirely agree with this comment, I do think that kaiten was good at doing what it was designed to do... but again, I'd be open to ideas.

[Elissar]

I stopped playing since they removed enochian









/s

[kayll]

You do realize the ones wanting Kaiten back are also usually the ones pushing for more "Melee"-like gameplay, such as tighter boss hitboxes, harder uptime management, conal AoEs that thereby require movement into and out of mob packs, etc., right?

While a buff to gameplay, it's objectively more effort for no increase in reward.

Not sure why you quoted/replied in a post before my own, weird.

Pushing? Where?
All I see is posts about this same tired zombie of a subject, topic after topic.
Where is the post that says "I was almost gonna play FF14 again, but then I realized my melee could hit the boss from across the room"?
The person at fanfest didn't have a 25 yard long katana prop, they had a "bring back kaiten" poster. (though it would have been funny)
The people with obnoxious Kaiten signatures never had "Shrink boss hitboxes!!!" signatures.
No threads about "Revert 6.05 changes!!", even square shrugged it off and said whatever despite the changes being literal miscommunication between the staff.

[ZiraZ]

It's ok Crit dungeons fixed everything
small hitboxes with lots and lots of uptime management for melee
now we need to fix Kaiten coming back

[Shurrikhan]

[There are] No threads about "Revert 6.05 changes!!", even square shrugged it off and said whatever despite the changes being literal miscommunication between the staff.

Celest, you around?? Still got the list of the dozen or so threads requesting reverts to 6.0 or late-Shadowbringers gameplay (w/ small additions/adjustments)?

The people with obnoxious Kaiten signatures never had "Shrink boss hitboxes!!!" signatures.

Riiigght... because signatures are the place to put in-depth, highly-contextualized feedback, rather than typically being best used synecdochally through some salient example?

Where is the post that says "I was almost gonna play FF14 again, but then I realized my melee could hit the boss from across the room"?

Look at any of the threads about gameplay that actually have Melee posting in them, instead of just ranged DPS pushing for the removal of all positionals and range constraints so that Melee could finally appeal to them (instead of, you know, playing the shit that was intended for those who like neither positionals nor range constraints)?

Hell, just go to any WAR thread that so much as mentions Overpower, and you'll see SAMs empathizing with the loss of conal AoEs and the movement having both conals and radials used to provide.

Again, not every "QoL buff" is well-received. Many prefer active gameplay over that value being provided for free.