I was almost in the mood to play FF14 again

[Renathras]

Could you start engaging discussions with actual arguments, instead of moving goalposts wherever you desire with stuff like ""Akshually, I meant that 100% of people doesn't agree with it".

Goalpost move??

So is it stupid that your job, most likely main, got neutered overnight because they woke up crooked? So is it silly that with unanimous complaints, designers and devs have blatantly ignored community feedback? Maybe he's one of the least stupid, maybe.

Believe it or not, the complaints are not unanimous.

Again, there are theory crafters, guide makers, etc that can give reasoned arguments for why Kaiten's removal was not a bad thing/was a good thing. On other forums (not this one for some reason), the position is not unanimous. Reddit, for example, but r/ffxiv and r/ffxivdiscussion (which is more technically minded people discussing mechanics and stuff) has dissent against Kaiten being a good ability.

I'm not saying one way or the other - both sides, imo, have good arguments - but I am saying complaints are not unanimous.

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Oh, and don't get me wrong, I don't know that removing Kaiten WAS a good idea. I'm just pointing out there is more discussion/disagreement on the topic than skimming this forum would suggest.

That was LITERALLY the goalpost!

If you people would stop using hyperbole like "unanimous" to bolster your argument, no one would need to point out it's not, in fact, unanimous. You can't use something as an argument in support of your position then get upset when someone shows that argument is faulty.

There ARE arguments to make to bring Kaiten back. Claiming that everyone agrees it should be back is not one of them. It's literally that simple. It's the same reason we had that discussion in the Healer thread, because people there were (and still are/do) trying to rest their argument on the force of unanimity that doesn't exist.

But who am I kidding, you never have a good argument, you just try to discredit the person you're arguing with and use that to support discarding their argument without actually addressing it: The definition of an ad hominem fallacy.

And what are you talking about? I posted the data with links quite some time ago on the player numbers. I referenced the Bancho numbers and the Wayback Machine ones. o.O Why even bother giving you links when you're going to pretend they didn't exist?

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Anyway, I've already made my case. There are arguments on both sides, there is not unanimous support for bringing it back, and people miss it for various reasons including but not limited to the animation, the feel of it in the rotation, the spam it's been replaced with, the big dopamine hit it would give, the complexity some people felt it added to the Job, rose-tinted goggles, and memes.

But, as you want to throw down the gauntlet, and since we're bringing up other threads and parts of the forum now for REASONS, I think someone in general (who I often disagree with), said it best:

Discussing a topic you are passionate about in one thread is not the same thing as being so obsessed with one skill in a video game that you feel the need to post numerous threads about it over the course of months, if not longer. (I'm not looking through their post history as I value my sanity)

yeah this obsession is weird, miss me out on that, really cringe at this point tbh

I don't typically agree with either of these people, but they kind of called this one right.

Kaiten itself wasn't really a very interesting button, it just offered a different button to press than Shinten. So instead of reimplementing Kaiten, why not design a better ability that uses Kenki? That solves the actual issue at hand while also making SAM more interesting than either pre or post Kaiten removal.

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I was just replying to two people earlier in the thread, one who asked a question and one who presented an over-broad unanimity argument. The rest from there is up to other people. o/