What if Tanks were designed like Healers?

[Renathras]

I don't think he's being completely resistant, it looks to me like the two of you have a fundamentally different view of the matter stemming from your personal views on job design.

It's not that, though.

Okay, let me see...how to say it?

What I'm trying to do is explain to him that there are some types of people that think a certain way. And he seems to be adamant that there is no one who does think that way. Imagine talking to a theist and telling them that there are some people who do not believe there is a god. And the person insists to you that there are only people who believe in their god or in other gods, but no one can possibly NOT believe in a god. Anyone who says so is just trying to be polite and/or secretive and not admit which god they believe in. And you're trying several different ways to say "No no, they just don't believe there is one at all", and the person informs you that that just isn't possible. That they must and do believe in some god, you just haven't figured out which one yet, and suggest several different gods they might believe in - like the thief god of shadows that wants their followers to be secretive about their beliefs, or the monk god of enlightenment that wants their followers to mostly act in the physical realm and not worry about the spiritual. But no matter how many times you say that there are these people who don't believe in any god, the theist will refuse to admit that possibility, even going so far as to suggest that even heathens believe in their own devil god.

That's the problem I have with Ty.

He seems to be incapable of believing or understanding that there are people out there that are not competitive, that when they see a high skill Job, their loins don't burn with the desire to master it, to get better, to improve on it. And that if there are, those people are just wanting to be lazy and get by. There can't possibly be another class of people, who as Eorzian_username described, do try to get good at Jobs and do want to do well, but don't want to dedicate months or years on something and prefer something they can master easily and be competent with.

Almost every videogame has characters that are quick and easy to master and clear the game with. In FF1, Warrior/Knight is a really strong Job. It has good offense, the best defense, good magic defense, and learns decent amounts of magic, and people have done 4 WAR clears of FF1. On the other end of the spectrum is Monk(Black Belt)/Master, which has high HP but weak defense, abysmal magic defense, no magic at all, strong offense but at later levels, and wears little equipment so few ways to augment this. All MNK runs are considered the hardest possible challenge in FF1.

"But that game has a party of characters you can play!"

Yes, but it's not the only game this way. Kingdom Hearts 1's hardest challenge was to pick the Sword and throw away the Rod. Most fighting games have a character that's easy to pick up and master within their roster. Most party games have solo challenges were people decide which single character/class can do things well and rank them from hardest to easiest to accomplish the task; FFT was what started that trend, I think. PotD runs have tier rankings of which Jobs are easiest and which hardest to get Necromancer on. Solo games that allow for builds (or have characters) often have one whose route will be easiest with another hardest and some variations in between.

I'm not asking Ty, or anyone, to agree that these people should be catered to. Right now, I'm just trying to get him to understand that they exist.

His boxes seem to be "driven to master", "lazy", and "fine being subpar and not clearing content past MSQ". That covers the "monk god", "demon god", and "thief god", but he's still not even able to admit that there is another entire group of people he's overlooking.

And that's why we can't reach an agreement or solution. Because none of the proposals are compelling to this other group of people, since this other group of people aren't even being acknowledged to exist.

To go back to the theism example, it'd be like if there was a nation on earth and Christians, Jews, and Muslims were writing up its charter. And they wrote "freedom to worship a god of their choosing". Now, some atheists might ask it to be "Freedom of religion", but if the Christian/Jew/Muslims were insistent "but everyone believes in a god, so surely this law covers everyone's needs?", contesting the atheists' attempts to explain "But what about the people who don't believe in a god?" with "That's silly; no one doesn't believe in a god. Everyone believes in one, and our proposal is accommodating them all, so what's the problem?"

Can you see how they wouldn't be able to reach an agreement/compromise with the atheists, not because they're incapable, but because they refuse to acknowledge that the atheists even exist, and thus none of their proposals will actually meet the atheists' needs?

.

Again, I'm not even trying to get anyone to admit that these people need catering to.

I'm just trying to get people to admit they exist, since any compromise requires that you first realize who the people you're trying to compromise with are and that they actually exist and aren't imaginary fever dream phantoms or something.

.

Ty is a smart guy, so I'm not sure why this particular realization seems beyond him, but the way he keeps restating his position in different words, none of which add this fourth category of person, is why I say resistant to the idea. I don't mean an act of will, though; it may just be so different from his own view that he doesn't realize it could be one, like how a theist and atheist find each other unfathomable.

Hence why I'm asking someone else to step in and try it - you guys say I'm too haughty and stuff, so here I am asking for help, something that is anti-haughty. Appealing for assistance. So will someone step in and do it?

...because I think this may be the single reason he and I can't reach any agreement. He fundamentally doesn't acknowledge that I (or my actual viewpoint) exists. He thinks that it's something else. Hence his "Support Sylphie" proposal. It's a good faith proposal he's making, but he's making it to the wrong person and not making a proposal to people like me...because I don't think he understands that we exist. (I mean, I know he knows I exist, I mean the mindset). It's like...

...well, I won't do any more it's likes. I'm just asking for help. Can you guys help?

Because I think this is the stumbling block preventing any understanding/compromise/solution.