What if Tanks were designed like Healers?

[AmiableApkallu]

The point I was making is that both are of the form "We can't say X is only on one Healer Job, because that ignores people that like X who want to play the other Healer Jobs, and it ignores the people who don't like X but want to play that Job." They both are using the same form of logic, or the same principle. I feel like the distinction only exists if people are biased towards one or the other.

For example, were Semi here, she'd probably complain about WHM not getting to be the buffer one with Protect, Shell, Wall, Haste, Brave, Faith, and Float being FF series staples for the WHM Job. Why would it be acceptable for AST to get to be the buffer one and not WHM, one might ask?

It's not. And that's my point.

Don't start with buckets -- simple, complex, buffer, pure healer, barrier healer, DPSer, etc. etc. -- and then try to cram each job into one of them. That is how you get the anemic disaster that is current FFXIV WHM.

Everything should flow from the job's identity/aesthetic. Imagine the job gets, say, a two minute cutscene where it gets to be the badass in some scenario. What does it do?

[ty_taurus]

I should also note here - since we've all agreed insulting, caricatures, etc are bad...we do all agree those are bad, right? - that the idea of "If you don't want to spend ours and considerable time mastering extremely technical Jobs, you're just lazy" is kind of an insult, as would be "you just want an easy Job so you can be rewarded while being lazy". If I'm going to do my best to avoid insults and caricatures, that's a two way street...

Who said that?

It's kind of like a person in a wheelchair looking at some stairs and a person saying to them "If you want to get to the second floor bad enough, you'll force yourself to walk up the stairs". For some people it's not possible.

You seem to have this perspective that being able to be perfect is the entrance to the building, but that is completely off base. The entrance to the building is experiencing the MSQ as well as secondary storylines like alliance raid stories, the role quest stories, the normal raid stories, etc. And fortunately, FFXIV doesn't even have stairs. Every entryway is exclusively ramps because whether you have performed your job with the perfection of an angel or had to climb out of the trenches of a day 1 alliance raid massacre, you're still able to access the building. What you are describing is you see there's an obstacle course next door where some people are testing their athletic skills to complete the course, and some people are even pakouring around the obstacle course to reach the goal in an even flashier way. You feel that whether or not someone has the time or patience to learn parkour, there should be some magical device that allows you to parkour your way to the end of that obstacle course so that people who've never tried parkour can do it.

I think this stems from the difference between what you and Ty believe a well-designed job is supposed to be. You believe that a well-designed job is something that anyone can pick up and master by reading tooltips. Ty seems to believe that a well-designed job is something that gives someone room for improvement and cannot be immediately mastered. This fundamental disconnect is probably preventing you both from agreeing.

This is mostly a well-spoken explanation. But really, what makes a job well-designed in this particular game--a cooldown based MMORPG--is ensuring that the majority of actions available encourage the player to make active decisions with what to use and when. Most of your actions should have a similar amount of use in any given scenario, but you can still have room for a few more niche tools as well. But the problem is, White Mage or any other healer may have somewhere in the ballpark of 30 actions, sure, but of those actions, you largely just use around 5 with 1 in particular being used more than every other action on the hotbar combined. That is antithetical job design that goes against the entire basis of the combat system.

[LughC]

Best solution is to build a time machine, go back to 2.0 development and cut the healer entirely.

[fulminating]

Everything should flow from the job's identity/aesthetic. Imagine the job gets, say, a two minute cutscene where it gets to be the badass in some scenario. What does it do?

Golems I think.
Conjurer and white mage's quests suffer from not really being all that substantial when it gets down to it. Here's some elements, clean taints, don't draw power from within. Also the elementals. There's also amdapor who were pretty neat but mostly touched on in the scholar quests. So to be cool the white mage can stick elementals in corporeal form for a bit, kind of like necromancy but sparkly. I dunno, maybe white mage just leans too heavily on external information to have a real identity within this game.

E: it occurs to me that we do actually have an instance of a healer doing cool stuff - . It is slightly unfortunate or perhaps telling that he didn't really achieve anything as a conjurer and had to turn himself into a pickle to solve the issue at hand.

[Silver-Strider]

Golems I think.
Conjurer and white mage's quests suffer from not really being all that substantial when it gets down to it. Here's some elements, clean taints, don't draw power from within. Also the elementals. There's also amdapor who were pretty neat but mostly touched on in the scholar quests. So to be cool the white mage can stick elementals in corporeal form for a bit, kind of like necromancy but sparkly. I dunno, maybe white mage just leans too heavily on external information to have a real identity within this game.

With the whole Raid Series exploring the 12, the Elementals themselves feel out of place now. Before you could argue that the 12 were just faceless Gods, just like Primals and that the Elementals were a seperate religious faction but now that we've met the 12 (at least most of them anyways), it begs the question, what exactly are the Elementals and what is their connection to CNJ/WHM? Mhach was big on Voidsent and summoning them to serve as reservoirs to power their society and the like but what of Amdaphor? We know they had Constructs but how they came to be is sort of a mystery. It would make logical sense that the constructs are powered by the Elementals but what are they exactly? Given that the Ascians were involved in the Calamity, is it possible that the Elementals are similar to Sineaters that the Ascians gave to Amdaphor and just sort of became known as the Elementals after years passed and the knowledge was lost to time but Golems seem like a possible inclusion in WHM's toolkit, given the implications of Amdaphor.

[ty_taurus]

I know that Yoshi-P would probably sooner saw off his own legs and sell them on ebay before portraying the Warrior of Light as a healer in an expansion trailer, but given how we're concluding the 6.1-6.5 storyline, and also how this upcoming expansion will feature a fresh new arc after an apocalyptic one, White Mage does sound like it could feel appropriate thematically to be the featured job of 7.0--A new dawn on the horizon, or a new flower sprouts from the ashes of conflict from our last encounter.

[Renathras]

I don't think he's being completely resistant, it looks to me like the two of you have a fundamentally different view of the matter stemming from your personal views on job design.

It's not that, though.

Okay, let me see...how to say it?

What I'm trying to do is explain to him that there are some types of people that think a certain way. And he seems to be adamant that there is no one who does think that way. Imagine talking to a theist and telling them that there are some people who do not believe there is a god. And the person insists to you that there are only people who believe in their god or in other gods, but no one can possibly NOT believe in a god. Anyone who says so is just trying to be polite and/or secretive and not admit which god they believe in. And you're trying several different ways to say "No no, they just don't believe there is one at all", and the person informs you that that just isn't possible. That they must and do believe in some god, you just haven't figured out which one yet, and suggest several different gods they might believe in - like the thief god of shadows that wants their followers to be secretive about their beliefs, or the monk god of enlightenment that wants their followers to mostly act in the physical realm and not worry about the spiritual. But no matter how many times you say that there are these people who don't believe in any god, the theist will refuse to admit that possibility, even going so far as to suggest that even heathens believe in their own devil god.

That's the problem I have with Ty.

He seems to be incapable of believing or understanding that there are people out there that are not competitive, that when they see a high skill Job, their loins don't burn with the desire to master it, to get better, to improve on it. And that if there are, those people are just wanting to be lazy and get by. There can't possibly be another class of people, who as Eorzian_username described, do try to get good at Jobs and do want to do well, but don't want to dedicate months or years on something and prefer something they can master easily and be competent with.

Almost every videogame has characters that are quick and easy to master and clear the game with. In FF1, Warrior/Knight is a really strong Job. It has good offense, the best defense, good magic defense, and learns decent amounts of magic, and people have done 4 WAR clears of FF1. On the other end of the spectrum is Monk(Black Belt)/Master, which has high HP but weak defense, abysmal magic defense, no magic at all, strong offense but at later levels, and wears little equipment so few ways to augment this. All MNK runs are considered the hardest possible challenge in FF1.

"But that game has a party of characters you can play!"

Yes, but it's not the only game this way. Kingdom Hearts 1's hardest challenge was to pick the Sword and throw away the Rod. Most fighting games have a character that's easy to pick up and master within their roster. Most party games have solo challenges were people decide which single character/class can do things well and rank them from hardest to easiest to accomplish the task; FFT was what started that trend, I think. PotD runs have tier rankings of which Jobs are easiest and which hardest to get Necromancer on. Solo games that allow for builds (or have characters) often have one whose route will be easiest with another hardest and some variations in between.

I'm not asking Ty, or anyone, to agree that these people should be catered to. Right now, I'm just trying to get him to understand that they exist.

His boxes seem to be "driven to master", "lazy", and "fine being subpar and not clearing content past MSQ". That covers the "monk god", "demon god", and "thief god", but he's still not even able to admit that there is another entire group of people he's overlooking.

And that's why we can't reach an agreement or solution. Because none of the proposals are compelling to this other group of people, since this other group of people aren't even being acknowledged to exist.

To go back to the theism example, it'd be like if there was a nation on earth and Christians, Jews, and Muslims were writing up its charter. And they wrote "freedom to worship a god of their choosing". Now, some atheists might ask it to be "Freedom of religion", but if the Christian/Jew/Muslims were insistent "but everyone believes in a god, so surely this law covers everyone's needs?", contesting the atheists' attempts to explain "But what about the people who don't believe in a god?" with "That's silly; no one doesn't believe in a god. Everyone believes in one, and our proposal is accommodating them all, so what's the problem?"

Can you see how they wouldn't be able to reach an agreement/compromise with the atheists, not because they're incapable, but because they refuse to acknowledge that the atheists even exist, and thus none of their proposals will actually meet the atheists' needs?

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Again, I'm not even trying to get anyone to admit that these people need catering to.

I'm just trying to get people to admit they exist, since any compromise requires that you first realize who the people you're trying to compromise with are and that they actually exist and aren't imaginary fever dream phantoms or something.

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Ty is a smart guy, so I'm not sure why this particular realization seems beyond him, but the way he keeps restating his position in different words, none of which add this fourth category of person, is why I say resistant to the idea. I don't mean an act of will, though; it may just be so different from his own view that he doesn't realize it could be one, like how a theist and atheist find each other unfathomable.

Hence why I'm asking someone else to step in and try it - you guys say I'm too haughty and stuff, so here I am asking for help, something that is anti-haughty. Appealing for assistance. So will someone step in and do it?

...because I think this may be the single reason he and I can't reach any agreement. He fundamentally doesn't acknowledge that I (or my actual viewpoint) exists. He thinks that it's something else. Hence his "Support Sylphie" proposal. It's a good faith proposal he's making, but he's making it to the wrong person and not making a proposal to people like me...because I don't think he understands that we exist. (I mean, I know he knows I exist, I mean the mindset). It's like...

...well, I won't do any more it's likes. I'm just asking for help. Can you guys help?

Because I think this is the stumbling block preventing any understanding/compromise/solution.

[ty_taurus]

He seems to be incapable of believing or understanding that there are people out there that are not competitive, that when they see a high skill Job, their loins don't burn with the desire to master it, to get better, to improve on it.

That's not true at all. I am completely aware that not all people are competitive, but if someone is not competitive, then they are not obsessed with trying to perfect their job. What matters to them is doing their best regardless of where that lands them, not reaching 99% or self-flagellating over their imperfect performance. It's not that they can't choose to optimize or improve, but they don't look at something like the mudra system and see that as an attack on their ability to play the game. Not all jobs need to be challenging, but what I am asking is not making all 4 healers challenging. I have said more times on this thread that there should be a more simple, more forgiving job for each major role, like Dancer or Reaper, or Warrior. My beef with the healers is that all of them are just terrible design. They are blatant insults to the combat system this game has established, something I stand by as someone who makes games and who went to school for games.

I appreciate and respect your attempts to communicate more calmly, but you are also regularly adding "quotes" around things I am not saying, which to me seems like you are completely misrepresenting what I am saying.

[Renathras]

Shurrikan said stuff better than I could...

Yeah, I have thought Zoe can work with E-Prog, though it's still...it works, but is kinda meh, and because Zoe itself has a moderate CD and you want to have it for Pneuma, it doesn't work as well. I'd rather Zoe JUST work for E-Prog/Diag and give Pneuma the boosted power to begin with.

And yeah, my issue with Krasis is that on paper, it seems like it could be a Protraction+Recitation+Adlo+Deply...

...except SGE doesnt' have Deploy. Sure, you can Krasis+Zoe+E-Prog, but then only one party member gets the boosted shield.

I agree that Krasis should be party wide. Half potency but for the whole party. That would make it usable with the whole kit. Even if it was just Magic, that would still make it useful for party super shields with Zoe and E-Prog.

You believe that a well-designed job is something that anyone can pick up and master by reading tooltips.

Oh, did want to nudge at this: Not quite.

I do believe that there are well designed Jobs that should work that way. But I also believe that well designed Jobs can be different. Note in that SMN thread, I praise both SMN's design and BLM's design.

My believe is that a well designed game will have both of those within it. See my post above where I talk about FF1 and stuff. I believe that a well designed game has both entry level and challenge level options available, so players can find the level they like best. What that is will depend on the game type. If I play something like Oblivion, I tend to go with stealth archer builds, with some healing and enchantment magic. Not the easiest thing but not the hardest thing. When it comes to something like Remnant: From the Ashes, I go with ranged and maneuverable (light armor) builds that deal damage from range and use dodging as the primary mode of defense. Something like Kingdom Hearts I tend to go for pretty simple, brute force power builds, with a hint of magic in my combat style. FPS games I'll either go with mid-ranged rifle configurations or close range either shotgun and heavy armor or light armor and sensor jamming with a silenced SMN "Sam Fisher" builds.

For MMOs, I often gravitate towards mid-complexity healing kit healer classes (like Holy Priest was for a long time in WoW), with minimal DPS interactions. When I play DPS or Tanks, I like rotations that have mostly rigid and the same all the time, but with a bit of flexibility. I like PLD now a bit more than GNB since it has the same "routine", but seems a smidge less rigid. DRK is just a crap ton of hyper burst then chill downtime (like NIN), and WAR is a lot like RDM without the procs the way you want to pool gauge and stuff. PLD hits the sweet spot between GNB's routine and WAR's flexibility where it's not too rigid while not being too not rigid, if that makes sense?

It's also why I can't get into DRG, because it's TOO rigid. I haven't actually found a single Melee I like yet (leveling each one to 80), though I haven't gotten to RPR yet. I also like SMN and RDM because both of them have patterns they follow, but there's room for flexing - but I DON'T like RDM because of the proc system; if every Thunder/Aero was guaranteed to proc Fire/Stone, or the proc system and Jolt were just removed entirely so you just always had Fire/Stone, I'd actually like the Job. And I don't like BLM because it's just too crazy. BUT, and this is the important but: I like that BLM is in the game so that people who do like that kind of thing have their avenue for it in BLM.

The point is, my view isn't as rigid as you suggest there.

While I think that there should be Jobs designed that people can pick up and master by reading tooltips - and it's a bit odd to me that anyone would thing this is a bad thing...like, I can't fathom why this would be bad, personally - I also believe that there should be Jobs designed where they have a lot of esoteria to them. Where you see a lot of people play it and just completely bomb out, but then you see that rare person who has mastered it and can get away with absolutely insane things.

Indeed, I think one of each of those should be in each of the roles the game has, and let players pick and play the ones they like best.

I'm not sure why this is such a Shibboleth with people, though.

My stance is that if someone can clear Savage now, they're of a skill level that means they can learn how to implement new buttons into their rotation,

I think the problem I have with this logic is that, from my experience, those aren't the same skills.

We've all known that one person that can go into a fight and within a few runs, has the entire thing memorized. These Savants can walk you through the entire fight in their head, typing it out in text before the fight or in Disc or whatever. They know the fight inside and out. They can execute it flawlessly from pull to Enrage...

...but they do sub-MSQ Jimmy levels of DPS and constantly whiff their rotation.

On the other hand, we also all know that person who has their rotation down to a T. A Master possessed of a combination of calculated science and powerful intuition, so well learned, the person can do it one handed while watching a YouTube video and not even having their screen up. They have absolute technical mastery of their Job, running 4 mans with them is a breeze, and they have a 99 in Agalia.

...but they can't execute Savage mechanics to save their lives.

Most people fall somewhere in between, but the point is that they are two different kinds of thinking. Two different skill sets. It's like comparing a mathematician and a physicist and an engineer. In theory, their knowledge bases overlap a lot, and in theory, each can do the other's tasks. But set a mathematician down and, with no instruction, ask him to do a structural analysis on a building made with building material A vs building material B, or sit the engineer down and ask her to derive a proof for Euler's Formula, and both are going to be stumped. Ask the physicist to do either task and they might have some idea where to get started, but are ultimately going to struggle.

While some skill sets may seem correlated, they aren't always. I feel that "fight execution" and "rotational mastery" are not the same skill. Moreover, I don't even think "rotational mastery" is one skill. There are three different types I can think of offhand - "metronome" or "how good can you do the same rigid thing over and over for minutes at a time without messing up" (DRG, GNB), "proc alert" or "how good are you at seeing and reacting to things conditionally activating in combat at random/not set in stone intervals" (RDM), and "upkeep plate spinner" or "how good are you at maintaining self-buffs and DoTs/debuff upttime on the enemy" (BLM between Enochian and Thunder, maybe NIN/WAR, since their upkeep buffs are not part of their rotation like SAM and DRG's are). Some are combinations (BRD is "proc" + "upkeep", for example), and some might SEEM to be one but aren't exactly, like SAM and DRG both having upkeep buffs, but they're naturally kept refreshed by their standard rotation, again, unlike NIN and WAR which have to go out of their way to refresh their buff.

In any case, I think that's part of my disagreement with you on that - I don't see them as the same skillset. So someone who is more towards the Savant and less the Master won't be able to make the change you want. Someone more towards the Master and less the Savant will be fine, but that person would be hard pressed by (and resistant to) changing encounter design (e.g. to require more healing) since that would call on skills outside of their preferred/stronger domain.

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Or, to use your martial arts analogy:

Some people are better at throwing punches, some people are better at grappling (grappling is exhausting and you have to be quick and precise, rewarding either speed or raw strength, and I personally hated it). The former might love boxing, find karate acceptable, be neutral on taekwando, dislike judo, and hate ju jutsu. On the other hand, some people prefer grappling and their list would be reversed. Still others have a mix of the two, and would like a style that mixes them, maybe preferring one in the middle over either of the ends. And still others might prefer a more defensive and less abrasive style, and naturally be pulled towards that while disliking all the others.

And further, some styles are easier to master than others. More direct, requiring far less conditioning, and with few techniques that the practitioner simply learns very very very well.

And I don't think your comparison between Jobs is correct. Firstly, because SMN, BLM, and RDM have very different play styles. They aren't the same "martial art". SMN is like boxing, RDM like taekwando, and BLM like ju jutsu. They aren't even the same realm of thing, and RDM definitely goes up into the black belt levels, as I've pointed out before.

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Also, I'm not sure you were reading that thread right:

I haven't seen anyone there argue to make RDM weaker. People have said if RDM needs buffs, just give RDM buffs, don't widen SMN's skill floor just because you want RDM to be better - simply make RDM's damage ceiling higher to compensate, like BLM's is.

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You are right about one thing, though: I don't care about parses.

Oh, I get annoyed with dicks (sorry for the language) like Gaius in General who constantly wants to point out anyone who has gray or green pareses as not being allowed to weigh in on conversations, and I don't mean me but other people who have made good points (and, amusingly, the guy won't post on his main so people can see his own record...), but that's pretty irrelevant to me overall other than how trolly some people are about it.

My concern is, though, with the people able to clear content now that won't be able to if some of the proposed changes were implemented. My personal view is an inclusive one, for better or for worse.

It's not. And that's my point.

But it is. That's my point...

So, your healer scenario? For me:

WHM - The Biggest of Big Bads has won. Fallen heroes are everywhere, some unconscious laying flat on their faces, some on a knee, gasping for breath and holding shut wounds across their abdomens or clutching broken arms. The heartiest of them is holding the line barely, both hands and all their strength on their sword as the Big Bad with one arm throws them back. The Big Bad says he's grown tired of this, and as he gathers energy in his sword to end it all, the Hero arrives. First few, but growing, light shafts pierce the overcast sky. The corrupted ground starts to brighten, green grasses straightening to life. The White Mage has arrived, holding his staff aloft with golden rays washing over his allies. The Big Bad, momentarily blinded by the light staggers back, reaching a hand to their eyes in momentary stunned silence as the very heavens erupt, pouring out healing light and like a torrent of rain. Everyone it touches is invigorated, bones straightening, wounds mending, consciousness returns. And one by one, the heroes stand, the most powerful warriors to the front, raising their shields with new energy, the archers and mages cracking necks, rolling freshly healed shoulders, and stretching arms, raise their weapons again. And the White Mage's staff glows once more, the battle rejoined.

SCH - Chaos has overtaken the battlefield. The Free Peoples retreat, reform ranks, hold the line, then are forced to retreat again. Foul magics streak across the battlefield, exploding on contact, sending men-at-arms back as they are peppered with the dark rays of magic. Vile warriors in armor inked with blackest knight slam into the lines, blackend greatswords smashing into tarnished shields. Onto the field steps the SCH. Straightening her glasses, she points, and her Faerie companion, with but a moment to nod, streaks to the battleline. She draws out her book and traces the sacred geometry inked across its voluminous pages, summoning the spells to turn the tide. As the black knights charge the newly pushed back and reformed line, a massive domed barrier forms over the defenders, blocking the dark warriors' path, slowing their footsteps, and sapping power from their swings. The tarnished shields radiate a bit more light, some of the tar fallen away, and the swords rebound. The glinting Faerie streaks from warrior to warrior, whispering mysterious words in the language of the Fey, restoring their vigor with a giggle before flitting onto the next. Their backs stand straighter, their shields held higher. The Scholar yells out an order, and the line advances, barriers of magicked light forming around the lead warrior, and immediately spreading out from that one, left and right, all the way down the line and across every soldier. The black magics come, but the barriers of light rise to meet them, clashing with them, and nullifying them. The Scholar shouts a command, and her Faerie closes her eyes, opening them with a giggle as magic feathers wash across her, then bursting out in radiating light as yet more barriers spread from her across the battleline. The Scholar shouts one more command, as green magicked winds pour from her book and wash out, pouring against the backs of her allies, quickening her steps: Advance!

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Those are the two I play, so that's how I see them both working in their "badass" heroic moments.

This is actually a good question, worthy of a thread itself...

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In any case, my vision of WHM really is "simple, straightforward, powerful". No frills, no nuance, it just does the job, directly and potently.

...

The MSQ is not the game.

Apparently, we need to get over THAT conflict before we can move on...

Okay, so there's two things.

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Though I do agree a fundamental probably is that Healers have a lot of room for mastery...it's just in their healing kits, which aren't flexed nearly enough.

I know that Yoshi-P would probably sooner saw off his own legs and sell them on ebay before portraying the Warrior of Light as a healer in an expansion trailer, but given how we're concluding the 6.1-6.5 storyline, and also how this upcoming expansion will feature a fresh new arc after an apocalyptic one, White Mage does sound like it could feel appropriate thematically to be the featured job of 7.0--A new dawn on the horizon, or a new flower sprouts from the ashes of conflict from our last encounter.

Somewhat agreed. Though I think my description above would require a battlefield. That, or healing a cursed and blighted land itself - Asylum.

Golems I think.

With the whole Raid Series exploring the 12...

Correct me if I'm wrong but...I don't think this is quite right.

The Amdapori didn't have anything to do with the Elementals. If I remember correctly, Amdapor wasn't in the Black Shroud at the time. After the Fifth Calamity, the Elementals grew/marched the Shroud south, expanding it and enveloping Amdapor, placing both natural and magical barriers around it so no one would ever return. The only reason we do in the game is because the Sixth Calamity weakened the seals and unearthed parts of the city (and, separately, keep) that had been covered, and weakened the seals. The seals were then broken by the Lambs of Dalamud, who managed to get inside and ultimately break the seal on the powerful "nuke" Voidsent the Mhachi had sent there at the climax of the war. A Voidsent so powerful, the Amdapori couldn't banish it, instead sealing it - Diablos. One so powerful, even when we and 23 of our best friends fight him, he remarks how he's still weak from being sealed for so long (something like 1500 years) and is unable to overcome us, even when consuming the energies of the Queen.

In addition to White Magic (the art of healing and stasis), they practiced Golemancy (an art we haven't been introduced to in a playable form, obviously - though maybe it's akin to the arcane construct class they had planed in 1.X, I dunno). This is an art based on giving life to stone constructs in some way, though it's not at all clear HOW, and to date has never been explained. What we do know is that White Mages can, in theory, do it. Look up the Disembodied Head mount:

"E-Una-Kotor created this winged monstrosity using stone hewn from the very walls of the Palace of the Dead in an attempt to better understand the guardian golems which watch over the Lost City of Amdapor. That the face chosen for the design bears an uncanny likeness to a certain someone is one stone best left unturned."

E-Una-Kotor is the Padjal (presumably WHM) there in Quarrymill. But, to date, we haven't gained any such powers. Probably because they don't translate super well into the game's context since it would be more a familiar than a summon. Artifacer or something.

The Elementals are a different thing, and still pretty mysterious.

As far as we know, they're spirits of nature. Sometimes they've been seen (mostly in 1.X) as elemental colored little winged things, like the HW Anima weapon's spirit before it takes on the defined, Mamet-like appearance at the end. The kind of whispy thing. One of the fan theories is that they were wounded by the Cataclysm harming the land, and so have been in a more dormant state. The Tank Role Quests in EW also actually go into their lore a bit, mainly one that is and/or has possessed the old tree and about "The Hedge", which was a powerful protective barrier spell they all put up together around the whole of the Black Shroud.

The Elementals also seek balance, particularly after blaming the imbalance of the War of the Magi for the Fifth Cataclysm (though that was partly the Ascians' fault, and the Elementals seem not to be aware of the Ascians, though it's hard to be sure what exactly they do know, as they aren't forthcoming with their knowledge), and they regulate the use of elemental and white magic for fear of another Calamity, as well as regulate the balance of the Black Shroud itself, including the flora and fauna and hunting and gathering there. Quarrymill's lore is that it's the oldest town (on the surface - there was one underground, Gelmorra...) in the Shroud, and where newcomers present themselves for the Elementals to judge. Though "present" doesn't mean "see", and even only a few Conjurers are skilled at hearing the voices of the Elementals, much less seeing them in a manifested form.

Not sure they've said anything else about them since, though...

That's not true at all. I am completely aware that not all people are competitive, but if someone is not competitive, then they are not obsessed with trying to perfect their job.

This is what I don't think you're understanding, there is a class of people who do enjoy perfecting things, but only to a certain limit. It's why they'll work to perfect something like SMN or PLD or WAR, but if you expand the skill cap of those Jobs, they aren't interested and will grow upset. They absolutely want to master something, but they aren't competitive in that they aren't interested in being the best at the hardest things. They simply want to play something at capacity, and they choose something with a capacity they can manage. People who do get upset when on WAR they wiff their 1-2-3 or they hit -4 when they had 33 seconds left on the buff still and mentally facepalm over it. It's not that they suck or don't care or don't try, it's that they respect their limits and want a Job that matches their skill cap, which (since these are different people) run spreads from low to medium.

That was the point of the posts I linked from Eorzian, because she expressed that pretty well, I thought. Especially the part about Jobs A and B.

If there was a Job with say a damage cap of 5k, where the floor was 4.5k, and a different Job with a floor of 4k and a ceiling of 7k, many people would pick the 5k Job because it's at the level they feel like they can perform at its max, or close to, which is what they want.

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As for the quotes: It's not meant that way, note that I put quotes around "monk god" as well. It's more to specify specific terms. I guess I could just use underlines for that...? Might try that instead...

[Shurrikhan]

This is what I don't think you're understanding, there is a class of people who do enjoy perfecting things, but only to a certain limit. It's why they'll work to perfect something like SMN or PLD or WAR, but if you expand the skill cap of those Jobs, they aren't interested and will grow upset. They absolutely want to master something, but they aren't competitive in that they aren't interested in being the best at the hardest things. They simply want to play something at capacity, and they choose something with a capacity they can manage.

But the issue is that those things are all playing within the same arena.

You're at 2000 SR out of 5000. Are you the best of Bronze Tier or the worst of Silver in your PvE game? It does not matter. You're still on the same damn spectrum, and the games themselves weren't changed according to your SR; it just marks your relative performance. It's still 2000 SR, and all that comes with that.

The only time you can divorce those things from each other is in throwing any and all effort-to-reward balance out the window, which then effectively provides only a very narrow selection of truly competitive jobs to each player type based on the effort they're willing to put in as to exploit the greatest reward they can from it, rather than just having ALL those jobs equally available to them, with none providing a disproportionate imbalance in their favor but also none therefore excluding them.

(Yes, there will still be some mechanics that click more easily for this player vs. that player and therefore they'll tend towards some jobs over others, but that's a single incidental filter that may impact choice in practice, as compared to purposely reducing those choices and stratifying players by job -- "something for everyone" in the sense of "each in their place".)