Yet another SMN thread: SMN is the only job that doesn't have a gauge/proc management

[WaxSw]

Well great. Sounds like you have options you would enjoy.

What does it have to do with that I said?


In the case you try to do the snarky white knight thing of saying "ThERE ArE SOmE JoBS WIth SKiLL ExPRessIon" as a way of justifying SMN's design. Skill expression shoud be a standard thing for every job and no job could be called well designed without it.

[ZephyrMenodora]

What does it have to do with that I said?


In the case you try to do the snarky white knight thing of saying "ThERE ArE SOmE JoBS WIth SKiLL ExPRessIon" as a way of justifying SMN's design. Skill expression shoud be a standard thing for every job and no job could be called well designed without it.

Lots of people like Summoner as it is. It’s one of the jobs I see very regularly now. They don’t all have to rise to your standards of what you find to be optimization.

There is a massive player base 95 percent of which wouldn’t be able to see any noticeable difference between their BLM and one that reads a 64 page document of minor changes in reactions. But it’s there for people who want to feel skilled I guess. Most people simply don’t care to that level and this is a product for the masses.

[WaxSw]

Lots of people like Summoner as it is. It’s one of the jobs I see very regularly now. They don’t all have to rise to your standards of what you find to be optimization.

Which is why in the playermade polls it was rated the lowest out of all casters? and why player have complained about its problematic design for almost 2 years?

People play it, thats something no one can deny but a playerbase doesn't mean that people like it as it is nor that its design is without serious problems, a lot of people are neutral about it and play it because it simply doesn't offer any challenge and its flashy and that by itself isn't against increasing it skill ceiling. What a lot of people fail to understand is that a skill ceiling increase doesn't have to be at the cost of the skill floor and as you said:

There is a massive player base 95 percent of which wouldn’t be able to see any noticeable difference between their BLM and one that reads a 64 page...

There would also be a massive playerbase that woudn't even notice the difference between a fully optimized SMN and theirs so, why is an issue that SMN gets a bit of skill ceiling?

Most people simply don’t care to that level and this is a product for the masses.

If this is a product of the masses why are you so against including more people in the SMN design and not only those who want to turn their brain off?

[ZephyrMenodora]

Which is why in the playermade polls it was rated the lowest out of all casters? and why player have complained about its problematic design for almost 2 years?

People play it, thats something no one can deny but a playerbase doesn't mean that people like it as it is nor that its design is without serious problems, a lot of people are neutral about it and play it because it simply doesn't offer any challenge and its flashy and that by itself isn't against increasing it skill ceiling. What a lot of people fail to understand is that a skill ceiling increase doesn't have to be at the cost of the skill floor and as you said:



There would also be a massive playerbase that woudn't even notice the difference between a fully optimized SMN and theirs so, why is an issue that SMN gets a bit of skill ceiling?



If this is a product of the masses why are you so against including more people in the SMN design and not only those who want to turn their brain off?

I’m sure square has player numbers and I’m willing to bet the current SMN is a huge success for the overall player base, not just those small numbers invested in the game enough to be on polls. I see more summoners than any other caster which is anecdotal but some 24 mans have 5 of them and no other casters.

Summoner is a clean and unbloated class that greatly appeals to many as is. It has enough decision making to feel rewarding enough to those fans of the class and also has time to enjoy the battle over looking for RNG procs. I often recommend it to new and learning players of those with disabilities as something they can enjoy and still play the game on a generally competent level.

You have other options if this doesn’t rise to your personal standards of class design.

[WaxSw]

I’m sure square has player numbers and I’m willing to bet the current SMN is a huge success for the overall player base, not just those small numbers invested in the game enough to be on polls. I see more summoners than any other caster which is anecdotal but some 24 mans have 5 of them and no other casters.

You do realize that precisely THAT is a problem? SMN is canibalizing the caster role because its breaks its rule while also having a higher skill floor performance? Read 5 posts above where I went into detail but basically, SMN is a black hole of design.

It has enough decision making to feel rewarding enough to those fans of the class and also has time to enjoy the battle over looking for RNG procs

That contradicts the fact that the invested enough players (as you said) consider it one of the worst designed jobs, so calling bullshit on this, besided there is barely any decision making in the rotation, not for nothing the lego comparision has been around for so long.

I often recommend it to new and learning players of those with disabilities as something they can enjoy and still play the game on a generally competent level.

Instead of having one job being accesibility one, maybe, just maybe we could ask for SE to introduce accesibility options in the game so they can enjoy all the jobs and not having them being forced to play only one. Not only that but as you've said previously:

Most classes fall into a general rotation without much thinking of "expression". Many of my DPs classes I have set up where I can mostly just cast my spells in the order I have them on my bar and then repeat

So if this is true then there is no need to have SMN as that job for people with dissability because they could enjoy a variety of them, some of which have that dreadful skill ceiling.

You have other options if this doesn’t rise to your personal standards of class design.

I wonder what old SMN mains, whose option of job was butchered for this, would say about that, after all the people who wanted easy jobs already had them ingame and its not like the skill ceiling means that the skill floor is high. "Easy to use but hard to master" is the gold standard

[ZephyrMenodora]

Instead of having one job being accesibility one, maybe, just maybe we could ask for SE to introduce accesibility options in the game so they can enjoy all the jobs and not having them being forced to play only one. Not only that but as you've said previously:

So if this is true then there is no need to have SMN as that job for people with dissability because they could enjoy a variety of them, some of which have that dreadful skill ceiling.

I wonder what old SMN mains, whose option of job was butchered for this, would say about that, after all the people who wanted easy jobs already had them ingame and its not like the skill ceiling means that the skill floor is high. "Easy to use but hard to master" is the gold standard

Won't respond to your attempts to put words in the general player bases' mouths. I have a significant amount of playtime in XIV and SMN is my favorite DPS job. I think it's the best designed so no point going back and forth what you feel others think. Just speak for yourself. You also aren't posting any data on this other than vague polls that happened...somewhere?

Sure, if you want to have options for all classes to play like Summoner or have an even easier mode than why not? Not really sure how you envision this but fine.

SMN was my main DPS since ARR and my most played job out of all of them now. I found it incredibly tedious in shadowbringers and it was my least favorite iteration of the class in my 9 years of playing it. A few here have some strange nostalgia for it but not many. Present is my favorite. *shrug*

Again, I'm sure SE is seeing how popular the class is now and will see they have successfully revamped it. Am curious what they add to it next expansion but I'm going to bet it will stay similar to what it is now given popularity.

[Mostly_Raxus]

I wonder what old SMN mains, whose option of job was butchered for this, would say about that, after all the people who wanted easy jobs already had them ingame and its not like the skill ceiling means that the skill floor is high. "Easy to use but hard to master" is the gold standard

as a former smn main that plays current smn i would say yippee, i love the new smn, i have nothing to prove to anyone about skill floors/ceilings, im playing a game, the class is fun, its not all rng and procs, boo hoo, if its not something you like dont play it, but dont try to diminish the opinions of people that do like it, its fine, it doesn't have to be anything but what it is. your gold standard in not mine, everyone here is arguing opinion but for some reason think it fact.

[WaxSw]

Won't respond to your attempts to put words in the general player bases' mouths.

Also you:

Lots of people like Summoner as it is.

. I have a significant amount of playtime in XIV and SMN is my favorite DPS job. I think it's the best designed so no point going back and forth what you feel others think. Just speak for yourself. You also aren't posting any data on this other than vague polls that happened...somewhere?

Literally here, on the official forums, here let me link you the thread. While this is a sample data of players invested enough to interact with the game in social media (as this poll was posted in several places other than the OF) the fact that SMN stands as one of the top 3 worst rated jobs basically contradicts the whole dialogue of "highly invested people love it" because taking that poll and the number of likes and comments people supporting the job and comparing it with people talking about how problematic and badly designed it is shows that the latter seems to be more common than the former.

You may like it, and its perfect that way, your opinion is yours but I once again have to repeat. PEOPLE. ASKING. FOR. SKILL. CEILING. DON'T. INVALIDATE. YOUR. PLAYSTYLE. In the same way BLM has standard and non standard there is nothing wrong with people wanting SMN to be more, you can keep the simple playstyle and those who want more can try to squeeze more out of it that they currently can't.

Sure, if you want to have options for all classes to play like Summoner or have an even easier mode than why not? Not really sure how you envision this but fine

The opposite actually but that is a talk that is irrelevant in the end.

A few here have some strange nostalgia for it but not many

Once again I summon the poll and the constant complaints of experienced players over the EW years, people play it but its not a few those who have "strange nostalgia" (a.k.a they butchered the job and gave nothing back)

I'm sure SE is seeing how popular the class is now and will see they have successfully revamped it. Am curious what they add to it next expansion but I'm going to bet it will stay similar to what it is now given popularity

See? This is something I agree, not because the current SMN is a success or anything, as I've said like it or not its a problematic job for the game and caster balance, but because if EW is anything to go by, they are very unwilling to make changes.

as a former smn main that plays current smn i would say yippee, i love the new smn, i have nothing to prove to anyone about skill floors/ceilings, im playing a game, the class is fun, its not all rng and procs, boo hoo, if its not something you like dont play it, but dont try to diminish the opinions of people that do like it, its fine, it doesn't have to be anything but what it is. your gold standard in not mine, everyone here is arguing opinion but for some reason think it fact.

You do realize that we're not diminishing oppinions, we are saying that a skill ceiling does not contradict a skill floor (outside the point is mentioned where SMN existence fucks caster balance seriously), you can keep your easy to play SMN but at the same time, as zephyr said, this is a product for the masses and in those masses there are people who want to squeeze more out of the job design and its fine to give them something.

Just a clarification, is not "my" gold standard. The "good design is easy to use hard to master" is the bushnell law which is basically THE gold standard.

[Ivtrix]

Which is why in the playermade polls it was rated the lowest out of all casters? and why player have complained about its problematic design for almost 2 years?

People play it, thats something no one can deny but a playerbase doesn't mean that people like it as it is nor that its design is without serious problems, a lot of people are neutral about it and play it because it simply doesn't offer any challenge and its flashy and that by itself isn't against increasing it skill ceiling. What a lot of people fail to understand is that a skill ceiling increase doesn't have to be at the cost of the skill floor and as you said:



There would also be a massive playerbase that woudn't even notice the difference between a fully optimized SMN and theirs so, why is an issue that SMN gets a bit of skill ceiling?



If this is a product of the masses why are you so against including more people in the SMN design and not only those who want to turn their brain off?

A quick look show that to be blunt, this guy doesn’t participate in literally any content that requires you to play optimally at all.

It’s easy to assume there is no problem when you subject yourself to content that is designed to be as fail proof as possible.

The number of people in here who take the postings as a personal attack “WELL I AM ENJOYING SUMMONER AND I DONT WANT IT TO CHANGE” is staggering and just shows the fundamental lack of understanding on job dynamics.

If you want a side by side example:

TOP P1:RDM vs SMN
RDM essentially cannot use melee combo for the entire first half of p1, as it is optimal for you to go into pantokrater with 81|92 mana in order to melee combo your way through the entirety of the mechanic. This means you cannot perform the standard loop opener of swift + acceleration on GCD 2 and it’s a negligible dps loss to jolt verfire and then embolden manafic GCD2 to save charges of everything since you will need to slidecast + use smart positioning to carry yourself through the entirety of program loop. When done correctly this hits the breakpoint needed of 81|92 just as the first player needs to move out for pantokrater and allows you to 3x melee combo your way through the rest of the mechanic.

SMN:
Bahamut
Titan
Garuda
Ifrit
Phoenix
Titan
Garuda
Ifrit

As long as you don’t ifrit 1st or 2nd after Phoenix, you can do literally whatever you want. But if you do the order I posted above summon for summon it work 100% of the time the only difference is if you get a 2 in program loop you hardcast slipstream and save swift for an ifrit hardcast. That’s literally it.

That’s why people are playing SMN in droves in high end content. A paragraph of text vs 8 lines with one word each to do the same dps. That’s the issue.

[Shougun]

A quick look show that to be blunt, this guy doesn’t participate in literally any content that requires you to play optimally at all.

It’s easy to assume there is no problem when you subject yourself to content that is designed to be as fail proof as possible.

The number of people in here who take the postings as a personal attack “WELL I AM ENJOYING SUMMONER AND I DONT WANT IT TO CHANGE” is staggering and just shows the fundamental lack of understanding on job dynamics.

If you want a side by side example:

TOP P1:RDM vs SMN
RDM essentially cannot use melee combo for the entire first half of p1, as it is optimal for you to go into pantokrater with 81|92 mana in order to melee combo your way through the entirety of the mechanic. This means you cannot perform the standard loop opener of swift + acceleration on GCD 2 and it’s a negligible dps loss to jolt verfire and then embolden manafic GCD2 to save charges of everything since you will need to slidecast + use smart positioning to carry yourself through the entirety of program loop. When done correctly this hits the breakpoint needed of 81|92 just as the first player needs to move out for pantokrater and allows you to 3x melee combo your way through the rest of the mechanic.

SMN:
Bahamut
Titan
Garuda
Ifrit
Phoenix
Titan
Garuda
Ifrit

As long as you don’t ifrit 1st or 2nd after Phoenix, you can do literally whatever you want. But if you do the order I posted above summon for summon it work 100% of the time the only difference is if you get a 2 in program loop you hardcast slipstream and save swift for an ifrit hardcast. That’s literally it.

That’s why people are playing SMN in droves in high end content. A paragraph of text vs 8 lines with one word each to do the same dps. That’s the issue.

This cannot and does not apply to everyone but one cynical thought is a lot of people use the easy jobs or the multiple, third party, tools available for active boss guidance, and then talk about stuff not being hard enough lol. I mean the boss guidance tools are now at what, like three different ones? Some of them hold your hand substantially.

Personally don't bother with the content, and attempt to be open about that as not to change a content that I have no interest in, and know either way whether they're actively cheesing it or not it's something some people like, but I don't mind occasionally looking at the content and often player feedback vs actual action going.... "Uh..huh... hokay". Reminds me when Yoshida called players out for wanting hard content and as soon as they gave hard content the complaints went up xD.

Seems like there are lot of wanting the 'idea' of hard content but not the reality of actually hard content. I think that is a portion of the interesting relevance Elden Ring's success is delivering hard content that can, mostly, also be cheesed (lots and lots of potential, intentional, cheese developed in the game if one so cares for it).