Yet another SMN thread: SMN is the only job that doesn't have a gauge/proc management

[ZephyrMenodora]

Which is why in the playermade polls it was rated the lowest out of all casters? and why player have complained about its problematic design for almost 2 years?

People play it, thats something no one can deny but a playerbase doesn't mean that people like it as it is nor that its design is without serious problems, a lot of people are neutral about it and play it because it simply doesn't offer any challenge and its flashy and that by itself isn't against increasing it skill ceiling. What a lot of people fail to understand is that a skill ceiling increase doesn't have to be at the cost of the skill floor and as you said:



There would also be a massive playerbase that woudn't even notice the difference between a fully optimized SMN and theirs so, why is an issue that SMN gets a bit of skill ceiling?



If this is a product of the masses why are you so against including more people in the SMN design and not only those who want to turn their brain off?

I’m sure square has player numbers and I’m willing to bet the current SMN is a huge success for the overall player base, not just those small numbers invested in the game enough to be on polls. I see more summoners than any other caster which is anecdotal but some 24 mans have 5 of them and no other casters.

Summoner is a clean and unbloated class that greatly appeals to many as is. It has enough decision making to feel rewarding enough to those fans of the class and also has time to enjoy the battle over looking for RNG procs. I often recommend it to new and learning players of those with disabilities as something they can enjoy and still play the game on a generally competent level.

You have other options if this doesn’t rise to your personal standards of class design.

[WaxSw]

I’m sure square has player numbers and I’m willing to bet the current SMN is a huge success for the overall player base, not just those small numbers invested in the game enough to be on polls. I see more summoners than any other caster which is anecdotal but some 24 mans have 5 of them and no other casters.

You do realize that precisely THAT is a problem? SMN is canibalizing the caster role because its breaks its rule while also having a higher skill floor performance? Read 5 posts above where I went into detail but basically, SMN is a black hole of design.

It has enough decision making to feel rewarding enough to those fans of the class and also has time to enjoy the battle over looking for RNG procs

That contradicts the fact that the invested enough players (as you said) consider it one of the worst designed jobs, so calling bullshit on this, besided there is barely any decision making in the rotation, not for nothing the lego comparision has been around for so long.

I often recommend it to new and learning players of those with disabilities as something they can enjoy and still play the game on a generally competent level.

Instead of having one job being accesibility one, maybe, just maybe we could ask for SE to introduce accesibility options in the game so they can enjoy all the jobs and not having them being forced to play only one. Not only that but as you've said previously:

Most classes fall into a general rotation without much thinking of "expression". Many of my DPs classes I have set up where I can mostly just cast my spells in the order I have them on my bar and then repeat

So if this is true then there is no need to have SMN as that job for people with dissability because they could enjoy a variety of them, some of which have that dreadful skill ceiling.

You have other options if this doesn’t rise to your personal standards of class design.

I wonder what old SMN mains, whose option of job was butchered for this, would say about that, after all the people who wanted easy jobs already had them ingame and its not like the skill ceiling means that the skill floor is high. "Easy to use but hard to master" is the gold standard

[ZephyrMenodora]

Instead of having one job being accesibility one, maybe, just maybe we could ask for SE to introduce accesibility options in the game so they can enjoy all the jobs and not having them being forced to play only one. Not only that but as you've said previously:

So if this is true then there is no need to have SMN as that job for people with dissability because they could enjoy a variety of them, some of which have that dreadful skill ceiling.

I wonder what old SMN mains, whose option of job was butchered for this, would say about that, after all the people who wanted easy jobs already had them ingame and its not like the skill ceiling means that the skill floor is high. "Easy to use but hard to master" is the gold standard

Won't respond to your attempts to put words in the general player bases' mouths. I have a significant amount of playtime in XIV and SMN is my favorite DPS job. I think it's the best designed so no point going back and forth what you feel others think. Just speak for yourself. You also aren't posting any data on this other than vague polls that happened...somewhere?

Sure, if you want to have options for all classes to play like Summoner or have an even easier mode than why not? Not really sure how you envision this but fine.

SMN was my main DPS since ARR and my most played job out of all of them now. I found it incredibly tedious in shadowbringers and it was my least favorite iteration of the class in my 9 years of playing it. A few here have some strange nostalgia for it but not many. Present is my favorite. *shrug*

Again, I'm sure SE is seeing how popular the class is now and will see they have successfully revamped it. Am curious what they add to it next expansion but I'm going to bet it will stay similar to what it is now given popularity.

[Mostly_Raxus]

I wonder what old SMN mains, whose option of job was butchered for this, would say about that, after all the people who wanted easy jobs already had them ingame and its not like the skill ceiling means that the skill floor is high. "Easy to use but hard to master" is the gold standard

as a former smn main that plays current smn i would say yippee, i love the new smn, i have nothing to prove to anyone about skill floors/ceilings, im playing a game, the class is fun, its not all rng and procs, boo hoo, if its not something you like dont play it, but dont try to diminish the opinions of people that do like it, its fine, it doesn't have to be anything but what it is. your gold standard in not mine, everyone here is arguing opinion but for some reason think it fact.

[WaxSw]

Won't respond to your attempts to put words in the general player bases' mouths.

Also you:

Lots of people like Summoner as it is.

. I have a significant amount of playtime in XIV and SMN is my favorite DPS job. I think it's the best designed so no point going back and forth what you feel others think. Just speak for yourself. You also aren't posting any data on this other than vague polls that happened...somewhere?

Literally here, on the official forums, here let me link you the thread. While this is a sample data of players invested enough to interact with the game in social media (as this poll was posted in several places other than the OF) the fact that SMN stands as one of the top 3 worst rated jobs basically contradicts the whole dialogue of "highly invested people love it" because taking that poll and the number of likes and comments people supporting the job and comparing it with people talking about how problematic and badly designed it is shows that the latter seems to be more common than the former.

You may like it, and its perfect that way, your opinion is yours but I once again have to repeat. PEOPLE. ASKING. FOR. SKILL. CEILING. DON'T. INVALIDATE. YOUR. PLAYSTYLE. In the same way BLM has standard and non standard there is nothing wrong with people wanting SMN to be more, you can keep the simple playstyle and those who want more can try to squeeze more out of it that they currently can't.

Sure, if you want to have options for all classes to play like Summoner or have an even easier mode than why not? Not really sure how you envision this but fine

The opposite actually but that is a talk that is irrelevant in the end.

A few here have some strange nostalgia for it but not many

Once again I summon the poll and the constant complaints of experienced players over the EW years, people play it but its not a few those who have "strange nostalgia" (a.k.a they butchered the job and gave nothing back)

I'm sure SE is seeing how popular the class is now and will see they have successfully revamped it. Am curious what they add to it next expansion but I'm going to bet it will stay similar to what it is now given popularity

See? This is something I agree, not because the current SMN is a success or anything, as I've said like it or not its a problematic job for the game and caster balance, but because if EW is anything to go by, they are very unwilling to make changes.

as a former smn main that plays current smn i would say yippee, i love the new smn, i have nothing to prove to anyone about skill floors/ceilings, im playing a game, the class is fun, its not all rng and procs, boo hoo, if its not something you like dont play it, but dont try to diminish the opinions of people that do like it, its fine, it doesn't have to be anything but what it is. your gold standard in not mine, everyone here is arguing opinion but for some reason think it fact.

You do realize that we're not diminishing oppinions, we are saying that a skill ceiling does not contradict a skill floor (outside the point is mentioned where SMN existence fucks caster balance seriously), you can keep your easy to play SMN but at the same time, as zephyr said, this is a product for the masses and in those masses there are people who want to squeeze more out of the job design and its fine to give them something.

Just a clarification, is not "my" gold standard. The "good design is easy to use hard to master" is the bushnell law which is basically THE gold standard.

[Boblawblah]

You do realize that we're not diminishing oppinions, we are saying that a skill ceiling does not contradict a skill floor (outside the point is mentioned where SMN existence fucks caster balance seriously), you can keep your easy to play SMN but at the same time, as zephyr said, this is a product for the masses and in those masses there are people who want to squeeze more out of the job design and its fine to give them something.

Can you give me an example of how I can keep the exact same simple playstyle while you're allowed to 'squeeze more out of the job'? What would that look like?

EDIT: I hate the post limit btw, it discourages good conversations.

Now I haven't really played SMN at anything above an Extreme so I'm probably not the best person to answer this, but there's a few initial ideas that I could think of off the top of my head.

- Making the order of the summons have an impact on the gameplay. -

You know how the legos kinda have set charges. Garuda has 4, Titan has 3 and Ifrit has 2 and the fact that Ifrit has a GCD that has a cast time. Why not apply that to the order instead of the actual summon instead, and to have that damage ramp up and gain different interactions depending on how many summons you summoned before? To give an example.

• Ifrit is summoned first. Ifrit has 4 charges and the primal attack. Summoner now gets the "Eikonic Influence" buff that gives a 10% damage buff to the next Summon.
• Titan gets summoned next. Titan has 3 GCD charges that now has a 1.5 GCD cast time has 2x increased base Potency. The primal attack now gives a vuln up to the initial target of the primal attack. Summoner gets an "Eikonic Influence" stack.
• Garuda gets summoned last. She has 2 GCD charges that are now hardcast for 2.5 seconds and has 3x increased base potency (much like the Ifrit GCDs from the system now). The primal attack now gives anyone standing in the circle a vuln up and a DoT that keeps getting refreshed if the target stays in the AoE.

Of course there's a lot more interactions other than those 3, and it all depends on the order of the summoning.

Like maybe if Ifrit gets summoned first there's really no buffs at all, then if he gets summoned second, then the Primal Attack has a DoT on the target, and if Ifrit gets summoned last then the primal attack is guaranteed a Crit/DH hit.

Or maybe we can also experiment with party buffs with the interactions as well. Maybe if Garuda gets summoned as a second primal, the party gets a massive movement speed ala Combat Peloton once she appears. Maybe Titan drops a mini shield to the party when he comes out etc...

Point is, you now have an option to stick with the old playstyle of Garuda -> Titan -> Ifrit, OR you can mix it up depending on what you need during the encounter. Options gets opened up, and there's now a skill ceiling while the skill floor is low.

I really like this!! I would actually be more encouraged to learn more about optimizing if something like this was in game. That said, I wonder if this would be nearly enough for the hardcore players. I get the feeling this would be just as braindead as the current iteration of SMN.

[Payotz]

Can you give me an example of how I can keep the exact same simple playstyle while you're allowed to 'squeeze more out of the job'? What would that look like?

Now I haven't really played SMN at anything above an Extreme so I'm probably not the best person to answer this, but there's a few initial ideas that I could think of off the top of my head.

- Making the order of the summons have an impact on the gameplay. -

You know how the legos kinda have set charges. Garuda has 4, Titan has 3 and Ifrit has 2 and the fact that Ifrit has a GCD that has a cast time. Why not apply that to the order instead of the actual summon instead, and to have that damage ramp up and gain different interactions depending on how many summons you summoned before? To give an example.

• Ifrit is summoned first. Ifrit has 4 charges and the primal attack. Summoner now gets the "Eikonic Influence" buff that gives a 10% damage buff to the next Summon.
• Titan gets summoned next. Titan has 3 GCD charges that now has a 1.5 GCD cast time has 2x increased base Potency. The primal attack now gives a vuln up to the initial target of the primal attack. Summoner gets an "Eikonic Influence" stack.
• Garuda gets summoned last. She has 2 GCD charges that are now hardcast for 2.5 seconds and has 3x increased base potency (much like the Ifrit GCDs from the system now). The primal attack now gives anyone standing in the circle a vuln up and a DoT that keeps getting refreshed if the target stays in the AoE.

Of course there's a lot more interactions other than those 3, and it all depends on the order of the summoning.

Like maybe if Ifrit gets summoned first there's really no buffs at all, then if he gets summoned second, then the Primal Attack has a DoT on the target, and if Ifrit gets summoned last then the primal attack is guaranteed a Crit/DH hit.

Or maybe we can also experiment with party buffs with the interactions as well. Maybe if Garuda gets summoned as a second primal, the party gets a massive movement speed ala Combat Peloton once she appears. Maybe Titan drops a mini shield to the party when he comes out etc...

Point is, you now have an option to stick with the old playstyle of Garuda -> Titan -> Ifrit, OR you can mix it up depending on what you need during the encounter. Options gets opened up, and there's now a skill ceiling while the skill floor is low.

[ZephyrMenodora]

Stuff

We will see how the class looks next expansion. I'm sure SE has more player data than 221 people from the forums. lol

Anyway not overly invested in arguing opinions, especially where I'd feel emotional enough to type in all caps with periods between each word. I'm having fun - more fun with the class than ever before so that's all I care about. But since I like how things are now I don't have to be all that concerned unless changes are being made by the devs.

[Payotz]

I really like this!! I would actually be more encouraged to learn more about optimizing if something like this was in game. That said, I wonder if this would be nearly enough for the hardcore players. I get the feeling this would be just as braindead as the current iteration of SMN.

No worries. I like scrolling up so I found your reply. And it's not really a matter of "nearly enough for the hardcore players" and more so "is it a good foundation?"

There's a lot of ideas like this that won't necessarily raise the skill floor (unlike my healing rework suggestions KEKW) but just opens up the jobs in general, and I think ideas like this is what the job design needs right now instead of just having the skill floor = skill ceiling design formula.

Hopefully they experiment in this direction rather than be content being cookie cutter soon.

[ZephyrMenodora]

No worries. I like scrolling up so I found your reply. And it's not really a matter of "nearly enough for the hardcore players" and more so "is it a good foundation?"

There's a lot of ideas like this that won't necessarily raise the skill floor (unlike my healing rework suggestions KEKW) but just opens up the jobs in general, and I think ideas like this is what the job design needs right now instead of just having the skill floor = skill ceiling design formula.

Hopefully they experiment in this direction rather than be content being cookie cutter soon.

I do appreciate the thought you put into this system. I'd be very interested in changes like this.

Personally I also want to summon Leviathan and flood the arena.