Yet another SMN thread: SMN is the only job that doesn't have a gauge/proc management

[WaxSw]

Well great. Sounds like you have options you would enjoy.

What does it have to do with that I said?


In the case you try to do the snarky white knight thing of saying "ThERE ArE SOmE JoBS WIth SKiLL ExPRessIon" as a way of justifying SMN's design. Skill expression shoud be a standard thing for every job and no job could be called well designed without it.

[VentVanitas]

dunno guys, looks pretty complex to me.

[ZephyrMenodora]

What does it have to do with that I said?


In the case you try to do the snarky white knight thing of saying "ThERE ArE SOmE JoBS WIth SKiLL ExPRessIon" as a way of justifying SMN's design. Skill expression shoud be a standard thing for every job and no job could be called well designed without it.

Lots of people like Summoner as it is. It’s one of the jobs I see very regularly now. They don’t all have to rise to your standards of what you find to be optimization.

There is a massive player base 95 percent of which wouldn’t be able to see any noticeable difference between their BLM and one that reads a 64 page document of minor changes in reactions. But it’s there for people who want to feel skilled I guess. Most people simply don’t care to that level and this is a product for the masses.

[WaxSw]

The only thing I could get from that quote as to WHY there must be a skill gap between floor and ceiling is that summoner is TOO easy? Meaning you want it nerfed then? I don't want to assume though, is that what you're saying?

Let me ask you the same thing, why SMN woudn't benefit from having a skill ceiling? It doesn't affect the skill floor and allows for a better designed job overall.

As to why SMN needs some form of ceiling, outside how a job that has no ceiling is badly designed one, its also because its current design is a problematic one for the caster role as a whole because its damage has to be comparable with the other 2 but also breaks the role rules since it doesn't really have anything to manage, not even casts. This job canibalizes the role because its skill floor performance is so close to the ceiling of the other 2 that it becomes the best solution for prog but also, since it doesn't interact with the fight in the way a caster would its experience doesn't translate well to the other 2, we no longer have the "RDM for prog and BLM/SMN for opti", we only have "SMN for prog and reclears".

The job also makes the role a nightmare to balance because by design it avoids the usual problem casters have of having to mantain cast uptime or manage the resources to allow it, which gives it an unfair advantage over the other 2 that is extremely hard to balance because the skill floor and ceiling are so close that any change to almost any skill would affect both equally.

[WaxSw]

Lots of people like Summoner as it is. It’s one of the jobs I see very regularly now. They don’t all have to rise to your standards of what you find to be optimization.

Which is why in the playermade polls it was rated the lowest out of all casters? and why player have complained about its problematic design for almost 2 years?

People play it, thats something no one can deny but a playerbase doesn't mean that people like it as it is nor that its design is without serious problems, a lot of people are neutral about it and play it because it simply doesn't offer any challenge and its flashy and that by itself isn't against increasing it skill ceiling. What a lot of people fail to understand is that a skill ceiling increase doesn't have to be at the cost of the skill floor and as you said:

There is a massive player base 95 percent of which wouldn’t be able to see any noticeable difference between their BLM and one that reads a 64 page...

There would also be a massive playerbase that woudn't even notice the difference between a fully optimized SMN and theirs so, why is an issue that SMN gets a bit of skill ceiling?

Most people simply don’t care to that level and this is a product for the masses.

If this is a product of the masses why are you so against including more people in the SMN design and not only those who want to turn their brain off?

[ZephyrMenodora]

Which is why in the playermade polls it was rated the lowest out of all casters? and why player have complained about its problematic design for almost 2 years?

People play it, thats something no one can deny but a playerbase doesn't mean that people like it as it is nor that its design is without serious problems, a lot of people are neutral about it and play it because it simply doesn't offer any challenge and its flashy and that by itself isn't against increasing it skill ceiling. What a lot of people fail to understand is that a skill ceiling increase doesn't have to be at the cost of the skill floor and as you said:



There would also be a massive playerbase that woudn't even notice the difference between a fully optimized SMN and theirs so, why is an issue that SMN gets a bit of skill ceiling?



If this is a product of the masses why are you so against including more people in the SMN design and not only those who want to turn their brain off?

I’m sure square has player numbers and I’m willing to bet the current SMN is a huge success for the overall player base, not just those small numbers invested in the game enough to be on polls. I see more summoners than any other caster which is anecdotal but some 24 mans have 5 of them and no other casters.

Summoner is a clean and unbloated class that greatly appeals to many as is. It has enough decision making to feel rewarding enough to those fans of the class and also has time to enjoy the battle over looking for RNG procs. I often recommend it to new and learning players of those with disabilities as something they can enjoy and still play the game on a generally competent level.

You have other options if this doesn’t rise to your personal standards of class design.

[Deo14]

The only thing I could get from that quote as to WHY there must be a skill gap between floor and ceiling is that summoner is TOO easy? Meaning you want it nerfed then? I don't want to assume though, is that what you're saying?

Essentially, yes. Damage of bad player should be significantly nerfed, while good player should deal similar numbers as now.

Let's simplify things a lot and ignore all the ress taxes, rDPS vs aDPS and so on. We have Bob which is bad player but not that bad, then we have Greg which is good player but not that good. Bob plays SMN and deals 9K damage, Greg plays SMN and deals 10K damage. Better player should deal more damage, so everything is fine so far, right? What if they switched to RDM? It's more complex, so Bob is struggling and deals only 6K damage, while Greg learned to play RDM and can still get 10K damage.

So now tell me, why should Bob ever play as RDM? He would need to put nearly as much effort as Greg, just to deal same damage as he did when he played SMN. And this is exactly what is happening. FFLogs show 18K parses for RDM, but nearly 30K for SMN (and 13K for BLM as a side note). Obviously you also need to take into account that devs once again forgot that RDM exists and somehow deals less damage than SMN, while being objectively harder. But even then, current philosophy says that you should be able to clear with any job, so if SMN doesn't change, he will always have advantage.

Best part about this? Bob can still have fun while playing RDM and/or SMN. Bob just does normal content, so he can mash his buttons however he wants, it doesn't matter that he deals half the damage as Greg when there are no DPS checks.

[WaxSw]

I’m sure square has player numbers and I’m willing to bet the current SMN is a huge success for the overall player base, not just those small numbers invested in the game enough to be on polls. I see more summoners than any other caster which is anecdotal but some 24 mans have 5 of them and no other casters.

You do realize that precisely THAT is a problem? SMN is canibalizing the caster role because its breaks its rule while also having a higher skill floor performance? Read 5 posts above where I went into detail but basically, SMN is a black hole of design.

It has enough decision making to feel rewarding enough to those fans of the class and also has time to enjoy the battle over looking for RNG procs

That contradicts the fact that the invested enough players (as you said) consider it one of the worst designed jobs, so calling bullshit on this, besided there is barely any decision making in the rotation, not for nothing the lego comparision has been around for so long.

I often recommend it to new and learning players of those with disabilities as something they can enjoy and still play the game on a generally competent level.

Instead of having one job being accesibility one, maybe, just maybe we could ask for SE to introduce accesibility options in the game so they can enjoy all the jobs and not having them being forced to play only one. Not only that but as you've said previously:

Most classes fall into a general rotation without much thinking of "expression". Many of my DPs classes I have set up where I can mostly just cast my spells in the order I have them on my bar and then repeat

So if this is true then there is no need to have SMN as that job for people with dissability because they could enjoy a variety of them, some of which have that dreadful skill ceiling.

You have other options if this doesn’t rise to your personal standards of class design.

I wonder what old SMN mains, whose option of job was butchered for this, would say about that, after all the people who wanted easy jobs already had them ingame and its not like the skill ceiling means that the skill floor is high. "Easy to use but hard to master" is the gold standard

[ZephyrMenodora]

Instead of having one job being accesibility one, maybe, just maybe we could ask for SE to introduce accesibility options in the game so they can enjoy all the jobs and not having them being forced to play only one. Not only that but as you've said previously:

So if this is true then there is no need to have SMN as that job for people with dissability because they could enjoy a variety of them, some of which have that dreadful skill ceiling.

I wonder what old SMN mains, whose option of job was butchered for this, would say about that, after all the people who wanted easy jobs already had them ingame and its not like the skill ceiling means that the skill floor is high. "Easy to use but hard to master" is the gold standard

Won't respond to your attempts to put words in the general player bases' mouths. I have a significant amount of playtime in XIV and SMN is my favorite DPS job. I think it's the best designed so no point going back and forth what you feel others think. Just speak for yourself. You also aren't posting any data on this other than vague polls that happened...somewhere?

Sure, if you want to have options for all classes to play like Summoner or have an even easier mode than why not? Not really sure how you envision this but fine.

SMN was my main DPS since ARR and my most played job out of all of them now. I found it incredibly tedious in shadowbringers and it was my least favorite iteration of the class in my 9 years of playing it. A few here have some strange nostalgia for it but not many. Present is my favorite. *shrug*

Again, I'm sure SE is seeing how popular the class is now and will see they have successfully revamped it. Am curious what they add to it next expansion but I'm going to bet it will stay similar to what it is now given popularity.

[Mostly_Raxus]

I wonder what old SMN mains, whose option of job was butchered for this, would say about that, after all the people who wanted easy jobs already had them ingame and its not like the skill ceiling means that the skill floor is high. "Easy to use but hard to master" is the gold standard

as a former smn main that plays current smn i would say yippee, i love the new smn, i have nothing to prove to anyone about skill floors/ceilings, im playing a game, the class is fun, its not all rng and procs, boo hoo, if its not something you like dont play it, but dont try to diminish the opinions of people that do like it, its fine, it doesn't have to be anything but what it is. your gold standard in not mine, everyone here is arguing opinion but for some reason think it fact.