What if Tanks were designed like Healers?

[Shurrikhan]

https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Revenge_Blast

So you're saying the 4.0 Warrior ability, Uprising... was stolen from the joke job that wasn't released until 4.5?

[fulminating]

So you're saying the 4.0 Warrior ability, Uprising... was stolen from the joke job that wasn't released until 4.5?

Spirits within and upheaval. (Stormblood)
Spirits within: Delivers an attack with a potency of 300. Potency decreases as HP decreases.
Upheaval: Delivers an attack with a potency of 300 Potency decreases as own HP decreases. Potency also affected by maximum HP-increasing effects granted to self.

The latter is a better designed version of the same concept because it interacts with other parts of your kit and you have more flexibility with it.

Calling anything a joke job when your main is listed as machinist is asking for trouble.

[Shurrikhan]

Calling anything a joke job when your main is listed as machinist is asking for trouble.

Blue Mage. Which, yes, is a joke job. You linked a BLU spell as your evidence of an ability that "did more damage when you were more damaged" before "they made a better version then slapped it on warrior."

The problem? Again, Upheaval was added to WAR before BLU was even added to the game.


I was the one who mentioned Spirit's Within in the first place, which, again has never dealt more damage based on missing %HP.
Nor did Paladin have any max-HP increasing to synergize with Spirit's Within('s dealing its full potency only at full HP) by allowing defensive CDs to buff its max damage.

EDIT:

4) we used too much of our daily post limit thing saying basically the same stuff but not understanding each other

I see. I still find it very strange to call the return of Warrior's XI ability a matter of Spirit's Within being improved and "then slapped onto Warrior". Both had always been HP-scaled skills, with Upheaval (a sort of a more fluid blend of Maim into 1.x Storm's Path into the end of Butcher's Block) being modified by VIT and Spirit's Within dealing current HP as damage directly.

Heck, the skill itself wasn't even improved, really. The second clause only adds clarity. The reason Upheaval could do more than Spirit's Within was purely that Warrior had access to increased maximum HP via Defiance and Thrill of Battle, while Paladin did not.

Kinda wish people would at least look at where the skills are coming from before insisting that a given job is somehow just gobbling up the kits of everything else. Yes, just copying the best of other jobs is a frequent recourse for jobs that need a rapid replacement for a new skill or trait panned as dead-on-arrival -- and so Warrior has seen its fair share of copy-pasta (see also SGE, MCH redesigns, etc.)-- but that's not really the case here.

:: And the moment you can use BLU's Revenge Blast in content still current at that time, you'll have your example. Good luck finding an example on a real job, though.

[fulminating]

Blue Mage. Which, yes, is a joke job. You linked a BLU spell as your evidence of an ability that "did more damage when you were more damaged" before "they made a better version then slapped it on warrior."

The problem? Again, Upheaval was added to WAR before BLU was even added to the game.


I was the one who mentioned Spirit's Within in the first place, which, again has never dealt more damage based on missing %HP.
Nor did Paladin have any max-HP increasing to synergize with Spirit's Within('s dealing its full potency only at full HP) by allowing defensive CDs to buff its max damage.

1) ren said a lot of words about how paladin was
2) I replied to ren who had mentioned spirits within without naming it but garbled my sentence. "funny that they improved this fluff skill but gave the improved one to war"
3) you also mentioned spirits within, but naming it this time
4) I showed revenge blast as an example of a post-1.0 button that scales based on how much hp you haven't
4) we used too much of our daily post limit thing saying basically the same stuff but not understanding each other
5) <- we are here

[Icecylee]

See, I was thinking earlier, how to describe 'what sets apart a Tank, Healer and a DPS', and the conclusion I came to was 'what are the majority of their OGCD skills dedicated to'. Tanks have a GCD loop, but most of their OGCDs are self or party defensive in nature. DPS have a GCD loop, but most of their OGCDs are either damage, damage amp for themselves, or partywide damage 'roids like Battle Litany or Brotherhood. Healers have a GCD (can't say loop, can I), and their OGCDs are mainly healing, healing amp, HOT, Mitigation, etc.

But, that's the point. it's the OGCDs that are the deciding factor for which role the job belongs to. The GCD loop for the filler is shared across tanks, melee, p-ranged (to an extent, BRD's weird), it's casters and healers that are set apart. And casters get to have their own unique quirks, like everyone's fine with RDM having a proccy system of 4 spells that chain into each other, with Jolt as the 'no procs sadge' backup, or BLM being the 'arcane mage' of the game. But healers are stuck with 'arcane mage' gameplay, without the system that makes arcane mage what it is (burn/conserve phases for MP economy)

Dancer chuckling uncomfortably as its heal/mit ogcd numbers get dangerously close to overtaking its damage ogcds.

[Renathras]

Don't forget Thunder!

In 2.1 only, yes.

I think I’d quit over that.

I mean, if you play WAR now, it's not exactly like it's too much different. XD I kid, but...it's really not THAT much different; you metronome your way through 1-2-3, you occasionally press -4, and you still smack Fell Cleave a lot after using Primal Rend once per minute with Upheaval in there somewhere.

Again, not saying everyone would be thrilled, but quite a few WARs just love being a nearly unkillable god of battle and love the dopamine hits from Feel Cleave and Primal Rend, so "MOAR Fell Cleave! John F---in' MADDEN!!!" would make plenty quite content.

.

As I say all the time, having different types of Jobs/rotations/complexities for different players is really the answer. Imagine if we had 2.0 MRD (the full on Cross-Class craziness, just as a Job) in current FFXIV, obviously with abilities gained over time, alongside WAR as it is today (or the even dumber version outlined above). Wouldn't be too much of a problem since players could pick the one they want. The problem is when they don't have options.

.

EDIT:

Dancer chuckling uncomfortably as its heal/mit ogcd numbers get dangerously close to overtaking its damage ogcds.

...wait, really?

I really should look at DNC sometime. I still have an irrational boycott/hate of it since it was head-faked as a Healer (everyone thought it was going to be and the Devs didn't just say no early on, and kinda did the "is it or isn't it?" game), but I'm running low of Jobs below level 80 as I'm leveling them for that Amero, so guess I'll be getting to it soon...

[ForsakenRoe]

You have to remember that WAR pre-4.2 was a completely different beast to what it seems to be now, it wasn't always 'ungabunga press the funny button for X free fell cleaves and a side of fries'. People who liked that gameplay (cough) had to move elsewhere when it was removed. And then after they moved somewhere else, (like how I moved to DRK) THAT got 'ungabunga press funny button for X fell cleaves bloodspillers' too. Eventually, every job they move to loses it's 'spark' in this way, and then there's nowhere to jump ship to, so what then?

But yeh, we've already seen the level of simplification of 'current WAR' to 'press fell cleave over and over', that jump in complexity removal, occur already, when we went from 4.1 WAR to 4.2 WAR. If it happened again, people absolutely would quit over it. Not everyone enjoys gameplay that can be accomplished by those drinking bird toys. Maybe if tanks had actual tank responsibilities still like moving the boss and positioning it for good uptime during mechanics, it'd be at least slightly disguised, but what you suggest is even less of a rotation than Guardian Druid, and that's pretty dire for 'rotation complexity' as it is

[Icecylee]

...wait, really?

I really should look at DNC sometime. I still have an irrational boycott/hate of it since it was head-faked as a Healer (everyone thought it was going to be and the Devs didn't just say no early on, and kinda did the "is it or isn't it?" game), but I'm running low of Jobs below level 80 as I'm leveling them for that Amero, so guess I'll be getting to it soon...

Sort of, it's at 3 heal/mits vs 6 damage (and two of them are the same button but for st/gt and another one only ever turns on after hitting another one because EW changed how procs worked and needed to make up the damage loss from it)? So kind of exaggerated but also not really. Cure Waltz, Shield Damage, Improvisation vs Fan Dance 1/2 (st/gt), Fan Dance 3 (distinctly different), Devilment, Flourish+Fan Dance 4

[ty_taurus]

...wait, really?

You’ve mentioned not liking RNG, so I don’t know if the supportive aspects of Dancer will save that for you.

What you would probably like:
Standard Step and Technical Step are two windows where you stop attacking and just dance. Your basic combo GCD attacks change into dance steps you need to use in a random order (they light up though so it’s not hard to use them in the right order). Also if you hit the wrong dance step, nothing happens so you can just hit the right one after and still get the maximum value of your dance, unlike Ninja who suffers the rabbit of shame.

Curing Waltz is an AoE heal on a 60 second cooldown that emits from you and your dance partner, and both AoEs stack, so if you’re standing together, you get healed twice. It’s 300 potency per AoE, but it’s only 3 yalms wide so you really need to be stacked. Keep in mind though that while it’s 600 potency when you’re standing with your partner, it’s not as strong as a 600 potency heal from a healer because dancer doesn’t get the maim and mend trait.

Improvisation is an AoE 100 potency regen that lasts 15 seconds. Improvised finish is used immediately after for an AoE barrier on top of the regen. Improv is a channel and the longer you channel, the stronger the barrier, but you can also double weave improv into improvised finish and the barrier you’ll get is 5% of everyone’s max HP. This is a 120 second cooldown.

Dancer has the lowest damage of all the DPS. your value comes largely from providing damage buffs to the rest of your party and specifically your dance partner who benefits from a permanent 5% damage boost and a 20% Crit/DH buff every 2 minutes.

What you probably wouldn’t like:
Your standard rotation is a 1-2 combo. The 1 has a 50% chance to proc your 3, and the 2 has a 50% to proc your 4. Your 3 and 4 each have a 50% chance to generate a fourfold feather which can be spent on Fan Dance or Fan Dance II (single target and AoE respectively). Both Fan Dances have a 50% chance to proc Fan Dance III (which doesn’t cost a feather, it’s just extra damage).

Your second gauge, esprit, is spent on Saber Dance, a powerful GCD. Your rotation generates fixed amounts of Esprit, but your dance partner also has a change of generating extra Esprit for you with each GCD they use. During Technical Step windows, the entire party has this chance. Sometimes your burst window will generate so much Esprit you’ll just spam Saber Dance 3 or even 4 times in a row, other times you’ll only get 1 extra Saber Dance. You’re supposed to use Standard Step on cooldown during your Technical Step window, but you might need to drift it if you generate too much Esprit before you start dancing. standard Step takes 5 seconds to use, and I’ve been in burst windows where I generate 50+ Esprit in that 5 second window.

[Silver-Strider]

Sort of, it's at 3 heal/mits vs 6 damage (and two of them are the same button but for st/gt and another one only ever turns on after hitting another one because EW changed how procs worked and needed to make up the damage loss from it)? So kind of exaggerated but also not really. Cure Waltz, Shield Damage, Improvisation vs Fan Dance 1/2 (st/gt), Fan Dance 3 (distinctly different), Devilment, Flourish+Fan Dance 4

Just make Closed Position a Kardia Clone, lower the CD on Curing Waltz/Improv and tack on a Regen to Technical Step and DNC could probably be a fairly effective Healer.