What if Tanks were designed like Healers?

[ty_taurus]

It'll never happen, but one can dream, and I think Grim's right in that adding 10 more levels and continuously tacking on abilities is reaching its breaking point. People who enjoy current DRG are likely to get something very different next expansion because there's not much more they can do to that kit.l

That is the dilemma of a live service game. In order to retain interest in your game, things must change, and new things must get added. If you don’t add to or change jobs with each expansion, there are many players who will get bored and leave.

Other games will do things like introduce new mechanics and challenges that create new problems for new actions to solve, but FFXIV does not add new challenges, they take away challenges.

Genshin impact added an entirely new element complete with new elemental reactions last “expansion” effectively.

What has FFXIV added? Gauge mechanics in Stormblood. Direct hit and tenacity. Charges for abilities in Shadowbringers. Combat sprint on 1 job. Meanwhile what has been taken away?

The elemental system; damage type buffs; TP; MP support; aggro management; boss positioning (largely); positionals (largely); healer DPS buttons (largely); stances other than tank stance; the heavy debuff; attack speed support; choice of which role actions to use; cooldown reduction; buff extension; accuracy; melee uptime optimization… and these are all general losses, not including individual job losses.

Not all of them were worth salvaging, but if all we do is take away 3 or 4 things for every one new thing we add, we run out of design space to do anything that isn’t just damage or healing. They need to create new problems to solve, not take away problems that we already were solving.

[Renathras]

DRK (that's the easy one), MNK, and...GNB?

EDIT:

This response amuses me because you are acting as thought almost every single person in this conversation other than you *hasn't* already had their preferred job/playstyle on the chopping block before, and seen it taken out.

Oh, I have as well.

And the interesting thing is - I'm the understanding one here saying "give everyone something". You guys, who have had what you love taken, should be the ones holding that position, knowing what it's like to be on the receiving end. Instead...you aren't. Seemingly content as long as "you got yours", no matter how many other people are upset in the process of you walking over them to get what you want.

My approach is for everyone to get something so everyone can be at least content, even if not perfectly happy, instead of pissing off one group or pissing off another by changing everything to suit the one or leaving everything as it is to suit the other.

And, for the record, there has been a lot of "Preserving what we had" in the game's history, it just tends to sometimes...misfire, for lack of a better word.

For examples, BRD has Sidewinder now even though it doesn't interact with DoTs, PLD has Goring Blade now just...to have it? These are cases of things the Devs have kept, despite it making more sense to remove them, to "preserve what we had". They swapped Trick and Mug on NIN, but kept both abilities. They kept Summon Selene for what, 10 patches (5.0, 5.1, 5.2, 5.3, 5.4, 5.5, 6.0, 6.1, 6.2, 6.3)? 10 patches AFTER it no longer was relevant at all. They kept Living Dead working the same way it was implemented from 3.0 all the way to 6.1 or so. It wasn't even an expansion level change, right, they made it in the patch AFTER the expansion?

The thing is, they tend to be stubborn about keeping the things that DON'T work or aren't useful to keep.

It’s not impossible to create skill trees, but ensuring each job feels not only balanced, but also has identity and feels fun to play is possible with our current format.

And there's always the "fallacy of choice" where you end up with skill/talent trees...just for everyone to look up and all use the standard cookie-cutter build anyway.

Not everyone and not always - I was on the side for NOT removing talent trees back in the day in WoW when they did that - but it does tend to offer less choices than people would like. Though imo, it'd be nice if a few more classes/Jobs were combined like SCH/SMN. People might not mind having to swap Jobs as much if they didn't have to level them separately. Going from Holy Priest to Shadow Priest is a respec.

[Icecylee]

And the interesting thing is - I'm the understanding one here saying "give everyone something". You guys, who have had what you love taken, should be the ones holding that position, knowing what it's like to be on the receiving end. Instead...you aren't. Seemingly content as long as "you got yours", no matter how many other people are upset in the process of you walking over them to get what you want.

My approach is for everyone to get something so everyone can be at least content, even if not perfectly happy, instead of pissing off one group or pissing off another by changing everything to suit the one or leaving everything as it is to suit the other.

I mean, it's not like I *want* people to be unhappy. I don't get my jollies knowing someone else has been fucked over. I just do not think it is practical or remotely sustainable, especially with this dev team, unless there are some major changes put in place. Which does not, at the moment, seem likely. And that it's important we recognize that while they did a decent enough job manage 10 or so Jobs, they've been floundering ever since they hit 14+, and there's no fucking way they could handle keeping track of 40+ separate unique jobs and playstyles. Something's got to give, and it's pretty normal for MMOs to have kits get complete overhauls as time/expansions pass, so I've simply made peace with the fact that not everyone's always going to be happy.

[Aravell]

And the interesting thing is - I'm the understanding one here saying "give everyone something". You guys, who have had what you love taken, should be the ones holding that position, knowing what it's like to be on the receiving end. Instead...you aren't. Seemingly content as long as "you got yours", no matter how many other people are upset in the process of you walking over them to get what you want.

Can you please stop acting like you're some magnanimous figure that's kindly understanding and wants to give us what we want? You've constantly shown that you don't care one bit about the people who liked HW and SB gameplay losing everything and getting pissed off, but god forbid an EW player gets pissed off instead. Please get over yourself, it's very tiring that you consistently put yourself above others when we're all arguing for our own self-interests in the end, like how you're arguing for one healer to remain as is, except you're pretending you're holding a higher position because you already have what you want right now.

[ty_taurus]

There are things I can think of where skill branches could work. Utility on DPS jobs, for example... Perhaps Nature's Minne is one option, or you can choose Soul Etude, which grants MP regen to both healers. Both assist the healer in different ways. Small things like that are doable, but that wouldn't have any impact on the general playstyle of a job and does not resolve the dilemma of needing to change, add, and innovate that live service games are subjected to.

Thinking on a more dynamic scale, one possible suggestion I referenced in the past as a method of appeasing SE's resistance to complexity is doing something like making White Mage choose between Glare IV, a raw potency upgrade of Glare III, or Banish, a new DPS action that adds a new element of complexity to DPS gameplay.

Going off my more recent White Mage idea, Banish (as an upgrade of Water) is weaker than Stone/Glare spells by a small amount, but instead of generating lilies automatically, your Water/Banish spells act like Enochion for your lilies. Your lily generation is tied to upkeeping a timed gauge buff rather than an automatic system. But what if that was a choice?

If you take Water, which later upgrades to Banish, Water/Banish grant 15 seconds of Flow, which can be increased to as much as 30 seconds. Flow not only causes your lilies to generate whether you're in combat or not, but also grants a 5% increase to damage dealt and HP restored, but you need to be actively DPSing in order to compensate for the lower potency of Water/Banish. Or you can take a trait that makes lilies generate automatically in combat, but not out of combat, and you don't get the 5% boost to damage dealt and HP restored. You don't need to manage the buff, and you don't have to worry about taking a potency hit casting Water/Banish and earning that potency back through enough offensive gameplay of your Glare/Dia usage. Taking Water/Banish would very likely result in that option being better for damage overall, but would be more challenging to maintain, and there's an argument one could make for taking the trait instead as the more consistent alternative.

It also severs the purpose of appeasing SE's distain for healers having damage tools (even though they continue to design content with middling healing requirements) since it becomes optional. This concept isn't a perfect system either though, because as mentioned, there will be a "better option." But if people can get around the reality that there is value to damage that is lower, but consistent vs damage that could be higher but is more volatile, it's possible it could be a safe enough choice. But then again, this is the example of a single action. Every other action you try and branch out like that becomes exponentially more challenging to balance. And we're struggling to get balance and identity now out of entirely linear job design as it is.

[Marxam]

if the OP means splitting the tanks into two categories of tanking then it technically already exists. In terms of defensive cds WAR/DRK lean heavily towards ehp mitigation i.e. TBN, ToB, Equilibrium etc. PLD/GNB is more standard with flat mitigations. However in EW its become more homogenized so every tank has at least one cd that is either a self heal, shield and/or % mitigation.

Regardless I think they hit the upper limit of jobs because they've shown that they can't add a new job without gutting an existing one and giving those skills to the new job. At this point, once we've hit an even number of jobs in a given role i.e. 4 tanks, 6 melee, 4 phys ranged, 4 magic ranged, 4 healers, they should focus on emphasizing each jobs unique thematic identity and stop adding jobs. Personally, I find it redundant to have multiple jobs that all play the same. TLDR; same shit, different smell.

[ty_taurus]

if the OP means splitting the tanks into two categories of tanking then it technically already exists. In terms of defensive cds WAR/DRK lean heavily towards ehp mitigation i.e. TBN, ToB, Equilibrium etc. PLD/GNB is more standard with flat mitigations. However in EW its become more homogenized so every tank has at least one cd that is either a self heal, shield and/or % mitigation.

Regardless I think they hit the upper limit of jobs because they've shown that they can't add a new job without gutting an existing one and giving those skills to the new job. At this point, once we've hit an even number of jobs in a given role i.e. 4 tanks, 6 melee, 4 phys ranged, 4 magic ranged, 4 healers, they should focus on emphasizing each jobs unique thematic identity and stop adding jobs. Personally, I find it redundant to have multiple jobs that all play the same. TLDR; same shit, different smell.

I mean that tanks are reduced to easy DPS "rotations" TLDR, the Paladin example includes this as your DPS rotation:

Royal Authority II - Single target filler GCD
Holy Circle - AoE filler GCD
Goring Blade III - 30 second single target DoT GCD
Holy Spirit - Single target ranged GCD (Weaker than Royal Authority II)
Circle of Scorn - AoE OGCD 40 second cooldown
Confiteor - DPS refund for using a new GCD barrier cooldown 3 times.

Naturally all 4 tanks would be reduced to this to make it so that tanks can focus on tanking and stop getting distracted by DPS. They shouldn't be pressured to DPS after all.

[ForsakenRoe]

DRK (that's the easy one), MNK, and...GNB?

EDIT:

And the interesting thing is - I'm the understanding one here saying "give everyone something". You guys, who have had what you love taken, should be the ones holding that position, knowing what it's like to be on the receiving end. Instead...you aren't. Seemingly content as long as "you got yours", no matter how many other people are upset in the process of you walking over them to get what you want.

2/3, the last one was SAM (i can see why you'd think GNB though) edit: dammit i got it mirrored i was doing em from memory, that's my fail i'll call it 3/3 then cos it does look a bit more like the GNB one than the SAM cos it's backwards

The reason maybe that some people have the 'as long as I get what I want' mentality might be because what we have now, we already 'had' in the past too. WHM didn't get Stone as it's filler, it always had it. We just lost what wasn't Stone, and Stone filled the gaps. People would still be able to spend most of their time throwing Stones in a potential rework, they don't necessarily 'lose' that gameplay. It's all down to SE to balance how much of a DPS loss it is to do that.

And there's always the "fallacy of choice" where you end up with skill/talent trees...just for everyone to look up and all use the standard cookie-cutter build anyway.

Hence I'd desperately try to avoid that, by having even the DPS 'High Materia' choices be utility based in nature. If one of them offers more damage, it's the insta-locked choice every time. So instead for BRD:

Warden's Paean is now AOE, but has a 120s CD
Peloton is now useable in combat (10s duration) but has a 180s CD
Nature's Minne now also heals for 400p upon application

No damage gains, except the healer maybe being able to skip a healing GCD because of extra utility. I feel like it'd end up like the bell curve meme

[Renathras]

2/3, the last one was SAM (i can see why you'd think GNB though) edit: dammit i got it mirrored i was doing em from memory, that's my fail i'll call it 3/3 then cos it does look a bit more like the GNB one than the SAM cos it's backwards

Heh, fair enough. I think I see what you were going for with the bit in the middle for the GNB/SAM one. I never realized their motifs were kind of similar. Bonus style points, the SAM one looks like a stylized S. The GNB looks like a stylized Z, which...would be cool if the Job had literally anything to do with the letter Z... XD

You might add the little points above and below the crossbars on the SAM one (how they have those little hooks on the opposite side from the big hooks from the crossbar), if you want a linear path, just have the cross bar big ones go passed it then have a short line segment come back to the crossbar with one of the abilities there. But yeah, it's just concept anyway.

Honestly, I thought the idea of having the constellation thingies the Job icons is pretty cool. Good/creative thinking on that one.

The reason maybe that some people have the 'as long as I get what I want' mentality might be because what we have now, we already 'had' in the past too. WHM didn't get Stone as it's filler, it always had it. We just lost what wasn't Stone, and Stone filled the gaps. People would still be able to spend most of their time throwing Stones in a potential rework, they don't necessarily 'lose' that gameplay. It's all down to SE to balance how much of a DPS loss it is to do that.

I'd believe this a bit more if people weren't arguing to change SGE as well - as it's always existed only in this form, and I even suggested once having it be the one that didn't change.

(Granted, if that was the case, it should be made where it can unlock at level 1 somehow, though that wouldn't inherently be HARD, it would just require more work; GNB, DNC, RDM, SAM, and I think RPR all start off in the three starter city-states, so it wouldn't be that hard to have a low level questgiver for SGE do the part of the "get to level 10, then you can learn other classes" bit. Honestly, that's an archaic invention itself that could easily be removed at this point in the game's life.)

But the point is, if people weren't adamant that even the Healer Job that has ONLY ever existed in this form ALSO be changed, I'd give that counterpoint more weight. It was one of the reasons I even suggested for SGE being the one that doesn't change under the 4 Healers Model, simply because there's no one to complain about it having things taken away that it used to have which they want back, since it's only ever existed in the form it exists in from 6.0-Present. I know Ty's part in that is he thinks SGE's lore means it should really be a complex, big-brain Job like SCH, but the point still stands that it's the only Healer that has never had anything taken from it to get to the state it's in now, and it's already considered the second easiest after WHM. Everyone else just seems to want all the Healer Jobs to comport to their desired "more complex" playstyle.

"as long as I get what I want" seems to include "and that's literally EVERYthing". Considering if any of you were saying "Sure, leave SGE alone, since this is how it's always been", that would literally be the 4 Healers Model in practice.

Hence I'd desperately try to avoid that, by having even the DPS 'High Materia' choices be utility based in nature. If one of them offers more damage, it's the insta-locked choice every time.

Agreed.

It's also why I say Jobs that are more difficult should offer more utility instead of more damage, because it comes down to this same kind of thing - more damage always wins, unless it's too hard to pull off, in which case it doesn't matter what damage it does, no one brings it because they fear no one can pull it off.

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EDIT2:

Also, something different about you (character). Did you change your hair?

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EDIT3:

I went ahead and summarized how each tank would look under this system

PLD:

Single target:

Holy Spirit (GCD filler)
Shield Lob (GCD instant cast DoT)

AOE:

Holy Circle (GCD filler - stuns enemies)

Both:

Confetior (GCD that reduces damage dealt by the target by 10% for 5 seconds)
Blade of Faith (GCD that reduces damage dealt by the target by 10% for 5 seconds)
Blade of Truth (GCD that reduces damage dealt by the target by 10% for 5 seconds)
Blade of Valor (GCD that deals very large damage and reduces damage dealt by the target by 10% for 5 seconds)
Note: These are your your Lilies and Misery, basically, and are used 15 seconds apart. Though I suppose for that to be RIGHT, there should actually be three of them. Not quite sure the best way to resolve that, but that's what this is anyway.

Fight or Flight (oGCD that increases the amount of healing done by your mitigation abilities, the amount of damage down to targets hit by them, and the amount of damage dealt by attacks)
Note: This is Presence of Mind, so obviously it's going to be both offensive and defensive.

Expacion (oGCD that increases defense and does an AOE attack)
Note: This is Assize.

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PLD is now the WHM of Tanks and a Caster Tank in one go. (I'd honestly be kind of fine with this, lol)

Obviously, this isn't its defensive kit, which would be...extensive and redundant. PLD would be basically unkillable.

EDIT4: (stupid sexy Daily Limit)

Myep. I *do* want all four healers to have an actual kit and skill ceiling that isn't a series of barely-connected mostly flat potency healing abilities and spamming one attack spell over and over again. I wouldn't bore a first-time gamer with that dog barf. "Leave one alone" just curses people who choose that job with garbage game design. Which current healers 1000% are.

Ahem, case in point proving...

And the interesting thing is - I'm the understanding one here saying "give everyone something". You guys, who have had what you love taken, should be the ones holding that position, knowing what it's like to be on the receiving end. Instead...you aren't. Seemingly content as long as "you got yours", no matter how many other people are upset in the process of you walking over them to get what you want.

...and...

I'd believe this a bit more if people weren't arguing to change SGE as well - as it's always existed only in this form, and I even suggested once having it be the one that didn't change.

(Granted, if that was the case, it should be made where it can unlock at level 1 somehow, though that wouldn't inherently be HARD, it would just require more work; GNB, DNC, RDM, SAM, and I think RPR all start off in the three starter city-states, so it wouldn't be that hard to have a low level questgiver for SGE do the part of the "get to level 10, then you can learn other classes" bit. Honestly, that's an archaic invention itself that could easily be removed at this point in the game's life.)

But the point is, if people weren't adamant that even the Healer Job that has ONLY ever existed in this form ALSO be changed, I'd give that counterpoint more weight. It was one of the reasons I even suggested for SGE being the one that doesn't change under the 4 Healers Model, simply because there's no one to complain about it having things taken away that it used to have which they want back, since it's only ever existed in the form it exists in from 6.0-Present. I know Ty's part in that is he thinks SGE's lore means it should really be a complex, big-brain Job like SCH, but the point still stands that it's the only Healer that has never had anything taken from it to get to the state it's in now, and it's already considered the second easiest after WHM. Everyone else just seems to want all the Healer Jobs to comport to their desired "more complex" playstyle.

"as long as I get what I want" seems to include "and that's literally EVERYthing". Considering if any of you were saying "Sure, leave SGE alone, since this is how it's always been", that would literally be the 4 Healers Model in practice.

...as correct, at least in some cases like Semi.

Semirhage, something you need to understand - not everyone wants to be "saved" by you from "things you don't like". Also note "things you don't like" aren't bad. I know it can be new and scary sometimes, but things you don't like are sometimes nice. Sometimes they're really nice all the time, sometimes just a bit in moderation, and other times, not for you, but still fine for others.

[ty_taurus]

I'd believe this a bit more if people weren't arguing to change SGE as well - as it's always existed only in this form, and I even suggested once having it be the one that didn't change.

Except Sage is only like that because healers are stuck in a pit of poor design. From virtually every angle, Sage should be the most complicated healer, not the least. From a lore standpoint, it's supposed to be one of the most challenging disciplines one can hope to master. From an identity standpoint, the job was quite literally designed as an answer to players wanting more DPS on healers, it just did a terrible job of achieving that identity. From a gameplay standpoint, it's locked behind potentially hundreds of hours of story.

Most people here are in agreement that it makes sense for White Mage to be a simple and forgiving healer, the only difference is your definition of "simple" is unreasonably rigid. I don't recall every detail of Roe's White Mage rework concept, but all it has instead is like 2 or 3 new actions that result in a relatively middling improvement to total damage output. My White Mage rework concept is 2 new offensive actions, an single target use for Holy every 40 seconds, and replacing the damage from assize into a self-buffing ley lines type action that's twice as large as Ley Lines and offers WHM a teleport for mobility. These are not complex or unreasonable ideas that take White Mage from level 6 Black Mage difficulty to level 90 Ninja difficulty even if you personally disqualify that as being describable as "simple"