I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Sebazy]

Just pointing it out, but this is basically WHM in a nutshell.

This is a big part of why I'm all for SE having a go at a complete rework of one of the healer jobs at this stage.

If they do manage to pull off a successful job of it somehow, everyones a winner. Hopefully a big part of that success would be looking at lessons learned from Sadge and WHM in recent times and as such, we'd see more of an emphasis on interactions within our kit rather than a big ol grab bag of disjointed buttons.

If they fail at it, oh well, we've got 3 other healers to fall back on so little of value was lost. But more importantly, hopefully there would be sufficient backlash over it that SE would actually realise and accept that they need to take a long hard look at their class design team.

[ForsakenRoe]

There are nearly no circumstances where swapping between AoE and single target attacks has any sort of interesting or meaningful decision-making that warrants having entirely divorced AoE buttons rather than just baking AoE into single target gameplay.

Right, which is why all the pruning of stuff keeps getting on my nerves so much. Like as an example, look at NIN or RPR. We've got 3 gauge spenders for each, Gluttony/Bloodstalk/GrimSwathe for RPR, and Bunshin/Hellfrog/Bhava for NIN. There's no reason really for NIN to even have Bhava, when they could theoretically just have Hellfrog do double damage to the primary target. But at the same time, the Gauge is so hollow and bland in terms of what it's useful for atm, removing ANYthing from it would have catastrophic ramifications. If we look back to SHB, the Fairy gauge for SCH had Blessing (10 gauge cost, 60s CD) and Union (basically super-embrace, 10 per tick). Now they removed Blessing, it's just the Union gauge. Might as well remove the bloody thing. Which is the issue we now see with SAM thanks to Kaiten's removal. You don't need to worry about holding gauge for Kaiten because it's gone now. You don't need to worry about holding gauge for Senei/Guren because Ikishoten is also 2min CD and gives twice as much as their cost. So the only 'thought' is 'don't overcap, dump in buffs'

[Niroken]

I mean...the other healer's kinda right, though.
...and like Ty says, WHM actually has the most DPS gameplay of all the Healers right now. It's always weird when common perception and reality meet and don't agree, but this is one case where that's true. Like the "Healers: Then and Now" thread looking at how Healers were actually played, how their kits have actually changed with time, and the realization that SCH is the worst "Boilspam" of the Healers, not WHM with Glare, which is actually the least-bad offender of 1-1-1-1 compared to the other three. Pneuma isn't really a separate spell from Dosis (same damage, just AOE I guess), and is on such a long CD that it's not really part of the standard rotation anyway, and Toxicon is gated by having only 3 to start the encounter off with and only getting more at a damage loss by casting shields and having them break.

I should have explained my opinion better. Having damage skills locked behind healing in theory is an interesting design because it rewards you for doing your job however it falls flat for the same reason as complaining about 1-1-1-1 spam, there's not enough healing being put out on most content to actually get rewards and having to force yourself to overheal in order to get those damage spells is ... dumb. So even if you have another damage spell for WHM, it just feels like Glare spam because you hardly get to use that AoE nuke unless you force it. I don't believe healers should have a true rotation because you should have to break from damage to do your main job, which would end up breaking the rotation unless there is considerable flexibility (then it just ruins the point of having said rotation). It doesn't matter if two healers have four/five/six of the same type of attack, it's how you get to use those attacks that matter more. An AoE attack is the same regardless, it's an area of effect. It's the modifiers is what area, what effect, how long for the effect, additional modifiers/effects (if any), etc that make an attack different and fun to use. Otherwise you could say the same thing about the overabundance of healing spells.

This is a big part of why I'm all for SE having a go at a complete rework of one of the healer jobs at this stage.

If they do manage to pull off a successful job of it somehow, everyones a winner. Hopefully a big part of that success would be looking at lessons learned from Sadge and WHM in recent times and as such, we'd see more of an emphasis on interactions within our kit rather than a big ol grab bag of disjointed buttons.

If they fail at it, oh well, we've got 3 other healers to fall back on so little of value was lost. But more importantly, hopefully there would be sufficient backlash over it that SE would actually realise and accept that they need to take a long hard look at their class design team.

Why does it feel like White Mage is always the punching bag when it comes to changes or lack thereof? lol

[Renathras]

Just pointing it out, but this is basically WHM in a nutshell.

Gonna have to be more precise. You mean the healing kit?

While it's bland as vanilla ice cream dipped in milk, each of its abilities has a use case. Many of them are close together, though.

You misunderstand I think. What I mean is, when we were back in SB, BLMs used Foul, a decidedly AOE skill, in single target too, because the damage was high enough to be a valuable part of the rotation.

Right, this is generally good design. Since it was a DPS gain, it wasn't "a decidedly AOE skill". It was a "single-target rotation skill also useful in AOE", which is a much better game design than having a host of single-target buttons and a host of AOE buttons that don't interact and don't stray outside of their use-case.

That's like saying Fleche and Contre Sixte should share a CD and you use one for single-target and one for AOE (like WAR's two oGCDs) instead of just having both be used in both single-target and AOE rotations.

Though...I'm not entirely sure if you're arguing this is good or bad. Depending on how I read your post, I could see either way, though I think we may be in agreement on this point? I also agree that Flare is the iconic BLM ultimate spell (like Holy is for WHM); go figure they're both relegated to AOE only uses. Especially since a number of versions of FF games, Holy (and maybe Flare...) are single-target abilities...

There are nearly no circumstances where swapping between AoE and single target attacks has any sort of interesting or meaningful decision-making that warrants having entirely divorced AoE buttons rather than just baking AoE into single target gameplay.

This. This was kidna my point about "Vanilla WoW".

FFXIV just doesn't have enough add/cleave/multi-boss fights for this to matter. There just aren't cases where you're actively swapping between single-target and AOE to make the two rotations being distinct have a point. Even when we get adds in fights, it's usually a short DPS check mini-phase that's one-and-done, not something recurring or that you're shifting into and out of AOE and single-target. Like imagine a fight where every 60 sec or so you'd have several adds spawn. Not only would this give the OT something to do, it'd give people a reason to have AOE skills on their bars, and give some Jobs like MNK (which can swap into its AOE rotation on the fly because of the way its stances work) a smooth transition to slide into AOE and then back to single-target.

But we don't have that, making AOE buttons largely "we have single-target rotation at home".

Why does it feel like White Mage is always the punching bag when it comes to changes or lack thereof? lol

I think this largely depends on the player. ASTs will tell you they're the punching bag right now. SCHs might, too. The only Healer Job right now that won't say they're the punching bag are probably SGEs, and that's just because they're new to this expansion and probably A BIT overpowered.

I think the best solution is to have heals be damage neutral and DPS be semi-free. What I mean by this is, systems like WHM's Lilies reward actually healing. IDEALLY, it wouldn't be boosted by party buffs so using it or Glare wouldn't matter (that is, it's not TRULY damage neutral because party buffing a Misery gives you 4x the benefit of party buffing a Glare right now), but it's close enough people not doing it aren't doing a completely different universe of DPS by comparison. But if healing was DPS neutral, it would mean you could swap seamlessly to healing and back to damage.

Healing being gated behind DPS is a bad design. For example, imagine a Healer Job where we had, say, SGE, and it had no healing GCDs, and only Addersgall spenders as oGCDs, and it gained an Addersgall every third Dosis cast or something. This would be bad because there might be times you need to heal, but you can't until you DPS a few more times. (Note that this is distinct from "damage spells do healing"; current SGE does do healing by casting Dosis, but it has both oGCD and GCD heals to augment that with or fall back on.)

Conversely, having damage increases locked behind doing healing is bad design, as you hit on, because when you don't need to heal, you basically are having to overheal to do optimal DPS. While this is TECHNICALLY true with WHM, the Lily system is flexible enough that you should always be able to do some useful healing with it (casting Solace on the MT, for instance), and the damage difference of using it optimally or not is fairly narrow.

But even with these constraints, there's a lot that can be done. For a simple example (not suggesting this, just by way of illustration), imagine SGE had a 1-2-3 rotation like MCH, where each hit did more damage (like MCH), and the amount healed to the Kardia target was equal to that potency. This would mean using your 1-2-3 instead of 1-1-1 increases your healing as well as your damage...but this is Kardia healing, so you still have your GCDs, oGCDs, and oGCD AG spenders to heal with even if you're constantly flubbing your "rotation". Such a system isn't locking away healing or damage behind doing your rotation correctly, while still rewarding proper rotation use since your healing burden would be slightly less.

.

I will also note - because people seem to say this a lot - "breaking your rotation to cast healing spells" is no longer a thing. Look at PLD. Press 1-2 then press Clemency than press - 3. Did you see what happened? Your combo didn't break due to you casting a healing spell. I think they changed this with 6.0 with a lot of the "doesn't break combo anymore" things (like Shield Lob doesn't), but spellcasts no longer break combos unless they're combos themselves. Combos break other combos (Weaponskills), and caster combos (PLD swords and RDM Resolution combo and NIN Raiju) will break/be cancelled if other actions are used, though this seems to be due to the "X ready" buffs falling away if other actions are used. Something not strictly necessary either - Verstone/fire Ready don't fall off like that - but it's just the way the more hard "combo" magic chains seem to work. You also see this with stuff like GNB Gnashing Fang not being broken by the use of Double Down or Sonic Break, only by the 1-2-3 or 1-2 (AOE) combos. BUT, note that the Continuation (again an "X Ready") buff WILL fall off, losing you a Continuation attack, if you hit DD or SB.

I don't think they've coded "spell combos" into the game yet. There are Weaponskill combos and then there are "X ready" effects.

Though this does seem to be based on their whim. For example, RDM's 1-2-cast spell breaks the -3, doesn't matter if Enchanted or not. Likewise, Jolt-1 breaks Dualcast. And using any melee strike or spell that isn't Holy/Flare->Scorch->Resolution breaks that chain. Dualcast is probably a "X Ready" effect by a different name, while the Resolution combo seems to be more similar to Confetior, though I think both of those are "X Ready under-the-hood" where they don't give you an "X Ready" buff outright, but function the same way and are likely coded the same way.

...but then you have "Verstone/fire Ready", so...I dunno, it's kinda whatever they want to do. But point is, it absolutely COULD be done for a Healer Job to have a combo system that doesn't break for spellcasts.

[Sebazy]

Why does it feel like White Mage is always the punching bag when it comes to changes or lack thereof? lol

At this stage it's all learning experiences for them at least. SE forgetting to scale Misery up with Endwalker hopefully demonstrated that they need to consider healer kits as a whole with each new expansion. Tacking things on the end isn't enough. In the end WHM came out of it pretty well I think, as long as SE learnt from that it's all good.

[ty_taurus]

At this stage it's all learning experiences for them at least. SE forgetting to scale Misery up with Endwalker hopefully demonstrated that they need to consider healer kits as a whole with each new expansion. Tacking things on the end isn't enough. In the end WHM came out of it pretty well I think, as long as SE learnt from that it's all good.

Even now there are still glaring oversights in healer potencies. Misery is just a flat 1240 potency—not 1160 that increases to 1240 at level 82, meaning it’s a raw 80 potency gain for ShB content. Meanwhile Toxikon, which is already a joke of an action as it is, is stuck at the 300 potency it starts with at level 66 even after hitting level 72 where Dosis II is 320 potency, making it and even worse scam than it already is.

Holy starts out as a DPS gain on 2 enemies until level 72 where it’s suddenly a 10 potency loss on 2, and then at level 82 the upgraded Holy III is still a 10 potency loss.

This really shouldn’t be hard to keep track of for healers. This is only a problem that healers have historically dealt with because they’re the only role subjected to their baseline DPS spell constantly increasing in potency because we aren’t allowed to have new DPS spells like every other job, even the tanks who also aren’t DPS jobs.

[ForsakenRoe]

Cough Aero>Dia being a downgrade cough

I think SE just does whatever for healers at this point, and then only changes things when JP goes 'hang on wtf is this inconsistency'

the only role subjected to their baseline DPS spell constantly increasing in potency because we aren’t allowed to have new DPS spells like every other job, even the tanks who also aren’t DPS jobs.

Imagine the outrage of, idk BRDs, if one of the 5 'new expansion thing' slots (this time it's 82,84,86,88 and 90) was dedicated to 'your Heavy Shot is now Burst Shot and it does more damage'. They got that in SHB yes, but imagine if it was every expansion. We get 'new rank of nuke/dot/maybe the AOE' at 92, a trait at 94, a new healing OGCD that is surplus to requirements (again) at 96, a CD reduction or extra stack of something at 98 (ie, WHM finally gets 2 charges of Tetra), and 100 will be some exceptionally cool looking skill VFX wise, but it's a tossup about how useful it'll actually be, since this expansion we got 3 'big heal' skills and a mit-with-a-twist

Imagine if PLD was like:
92: Fast Blade becomes Quickblade, does 10 more potency
94: Trait, Intervention now receives 75% of the effect of Rampart/Sentinel instead of 50%
96: New skill, Requiescat but it's AOE
98: Trait, Shield Bash now deals 200p instead of 100 (no, they haven't deleted it yet)
100: New skill, a new short-CD defensive that costs MP to put a barrier on yourself equal to 25% of your Max HP. Called 'The Brightest Day', all similarities to other skills are coincidental

It'd be a more limp, low energy, zero hype job action clip than the EW SCH one with Expedient's reveal

[ty_taurus]

Cough Aero>Dia being a downgrade cough

I think SE just does whatever for healers at this point, and then only changes things when JP goes 'hang on wtf is this inconsistency'



Imagine the outrage of, idk BRDs, if one of the 5 'new expansion thing' slots (this time it's 82,84,86,88 and 90) was dedicated to 'your Heavy Shot is now Burst Shot and it does more damage'. They got that in SHB yes, but imagine if it was every expansion. We get 'new rank of nuke/dot/maybe the AOE' at 92, a trait at 94, a new healing OGCD that is surplus to requirements (again) at 96, a CD reduction or extra stack of something at 98 (ie, WHM finally gets 2 charges of Tetra), and 100 will be some exceptionally cool looking skill VFX wise, but it's a tossup about how useful it'll actually be, since this expansion we got 3 'big heal' skills and a mit-with-a-twist

Imagine if PLD was like:
92: Fast Blade becomes Quickblade, does 10 more potency
94: Trait, Intervention now receives 75% of the effect of Rampart/Sentinel instead of 50%
96: New skill, Requiescat but it's AOE
98: Trait, Shield Bash now deals 200p instead of 100 (no, they haven't deleted it yet)
100: New skill, a new short-CD defensive that costs MP to put a barrier on yourself equal to 25% of your Max HP. Called 'The Brightest Day', all similarities to other skills are coincidental

It'd be a more limp, low energy, zero hype job action clip than the EW SCH one with Expedient's reveal

I quite literally mocked up that Paladin in the other thread earlier this morning, funnily enough.

[Silver-Strider]

Gonna have to be more precise. You mean the healing kit?

While it's bland as vanilla ice cream dipped in milk, each of its abilities has a use case. Many of them are close together, though.

The use case of the majority of WHM's skills are practically nonexistent because every skill is tripping over themselves with how often they overlap. with the worst of it being that it ultimately doesn't matter which one you pick since it's all an illusion of choice. What does it matter if I use Aqua Veil over Divine Benison? Or Lilybell over Asylum? Medica over Cure 3? There's no special mechanics to any of them, no real significant choices to be made, just whatever standalone skill I want to throw at the next mechanic with very little thought actually needed. Their might be the occasional mechanic that makes 1 superior to the other, such as a Tank Buster with a bleed effect would hurt a lot less with Aqua Veil than Divine Benison but on the whole, the choice is superfluous at best.

We've been asking for anything with substance for years now but all we get is the same crappy standalone heal buttons with no real interaction with one another. I'd rather a second DPS button if for no other reason so I don't burn out my 1 key from overuse at this point.

[Zeastria]

FFXIV have a hidden difficulity curve through the various jobs..
If you find a role easy and boring play..
it can be because you're playing one of the easier one ( jobs ment for entry to new players)
How about playing a more advanced job?