I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Niroken]

I wouldn't specifically add a standard dps rotation but more of what Sage (and somewhat White Mage) where you can do X to build to additional damage abilities. The issue is the frequency. Sage isn't as bad with this since you have Phlegma as a filler but White Mage you basically need to waste/use three lilies to use your damage spell which can take a bit of time per Afflatus Misery.

1 spammable damage skill, 1 spammable DoT, 1 built up single target nuke, 1 built up AoE nuke should be a minimum in my opinion with additional variations for each of the healers.

[ty_taurus]

I wouldn't specifically add a standard dps rotation but more of what Sage (and somewhat White Mage) where you can do X to build to additional damage abilities. The issue is the frequency. Sage isn't as bad with this since you have Phlegma as a filler but White Mage you basically need to waste/use three lilies to use your damage spell which can take a bit of time per Afflatus Misery.

1 spammable damage skill, 1 spammable DoT, 1 built up single target nuke, 1 built up AoE nuke should be a minimum in my opinion with additional variations for each of the healers.

WHM actually has more DPS gameplay options. Assize is basically Phlegma just OGCD instead. Both are 40 second DPS cooldowns. But WHM has Afflatus Misery in addition to that which itself is not a bad tool, but isn't adding much more to the engagement factor, but it's more than SGE has.

[Sani2341]

I wouldn't specifically add a standard dps rotation but more of what Sage (and somewhat White Mage) where you can do X to build to additional damage abilities. The issue is the frequency. Sage isn't as bad with this since you have Phlegma as a filler but White Mage you basically need to waste/use three lilies to use your damage spell which can take a bit of time per Afflatus Misery.

1 spammable damage skill, 1 spammable DoT, 1 built up single target nuke, 1 built up AoE nuke should be a minimum in my opinion with additional variations for each of the healers.

Issue is, while WHM's blood lily is damage neutral and you, afaik, need to use the lily gcds anyways so it is no extra effort to generate. SGE requires you to use GCD tools you usualy don't need for anything but generating resources for toxicon. Which is an overall dmg loss, iirc even compared to refreshing your dot early. And the threee free stacks we get at the start of an instance are often the only ones used unless there's downtime where spamming shields isn't costing you chances to cast dosis

[ForsakenRoe]

>"So you want what is basically an extra spell that does what glare does already? Cool waste of time"

By this logic, why did SE add Xenoglossy when BLM already used Foul even in singletarget? Why add Senei when SAM used Guren in ST? Why have any of the elemental stuff for RDM when Jolt and Impact also generate BWmana? It's not the fact that spell X and spell Y both do damage, it's the context in which they do that damage. If we add a spell that does, for example, 20-40p more damage than a Glare, but is on a 15s CD, then you can't just spam that new spell, and you can't just spam Glare (well, you could but you'd lose a tiny bit of damage). Once again I will link this video, where you can see me demonstrate how much of a difference two small changes (Dia duration 12s instead of 30, new 15s CD GCD skill) can make to the rotation. And I'll relink the pie charts of 'what GCDs would be used per minute now vs if I redesigned the job'

(Banish is a 15s CD GCD. Dia is 12s duration. BOTE is a heal skill that procs one cast of Quake Tornado Flood. Those three skills replace Glare, Dia, Banish respectively on the hotbars.
As such, you could count the Dia press count as 6, and the Glare press count as 8. It is still a far cry from the current 18 Glares per minute we have.)

I want more downtime complexity, but if I had developer input, I wouldn't want it to come as melee DPS-style combo chains. 1-2-3 merely changes which buttons I'm pressing, but it doesn't make me think at all. RDM or DNC style rotations are much more my style.

Agreed, a 123 is a lot more restrictive in terms of what order you can use things, what breaks the combo, etc. It took till this patch to get Atonement to stop breaking combo. I feel like having a conditional buff to use a different skill, rather than a hard enforced 1-2 is better. Mostly because going from 111 to 123 is not actually that interesting either. If they condensed the RDM 123 into one button, it's not going to suddenly be way more boring and ruin the class, right? But if they were to make VerAero/VerThunder turn automatically into 'the 5s spell that you have less ColorMana for', that would definitely be more brain-off and bad for the class. So, things for healers, like 'when your shield breaks on SGE, you get (new buff), which allows a use of Phlegma without regard to it's cooldown', this would make using a shield a potency loss of 60 instead of 330, allow banking an extra mobility spell potentially, frees up Toxicon and Addersting to be something way more interesting than 'scuffed Ruin 2', etc. Or for WHM, the whole Quake Tornado etc thing. I don't think anyone would find it quite as fun, cool, etc if, rather than what I've suggested, we just have 'oh yeh, Glare combos into Quake as a 1-2 combo'

Also, the only healer/casters to actually have 123 style combo actions (unless I'm somehow forgetting one) are RDM, on it's melee combo, and SMN, on it's melee-based Ifrit thing. 123 is inherently a melee-centric design choice, and 'X ready' procs are moreso used for the healers and casters.

[Semirhage]

Mostly because going from 111 to 123 is not actually that interesting either. If they condensed the RDM 123 into one button, it's not going to suddenly be way more boring and ruin the class, right

(I also think that compacting RDM's 123 into a single button is good because this game's janky 1995 netcode makes fast GCDs feel sticky, and I for one don't like losing my burst because Enchanted Riposte decided to double-swing)

[ty_taurus]

(I also think that compacting RDM's 123 into a single button is good because this game's janky 1995 netcode makes fast GCDs feel sticky, and I for one don't like losing my burst because Enchanted Riposte decided to double-swing)

In general, I do want to see that become an option and let players choose to set combo buttons manually or condensed, but I actually feel like the condensed button can be jankier. I had to deal with the AT&T issues from the last couple weeks (finally seem to be fixed thank goodness), and playing as Dancer was actually really frustrating. So many buttons change, and the lag meant the game wouldn’t update when I hit something like Standard Step, so I couldn’t actually use my steps for like half a second until the game updated and changed my combo buttons into steps. And Improvised Finish which is already a pain in the ass to double weave was basically impossible.

[Renathras]

I remember another healer main attacked me when I said we really do need more dps spells to make them feel less boring.

>"So you want what is basically an extra spell that does what glare does already? Cool waste of time"

No, I want to have a 1-2 dps combo chain like most classes but for healers so I am not quite literally PRESSING THE SAME BUTTON on repeat for 30 seconds and occasionally stopping to heal and/or reapply my dot. I don't even care if it comes at the cost of decreasing the potency of the main single-target, just give us a fucking basic combo chain!

I mean...the other healer's kinda right, though.

You're asking for an extra spell for no reason other than having a second button to press. No interesting interactions, no skill expression, etc.

Quite a few people want (and many use add-ons to make) the 1-2-3 and 1-2 combos on DPS and Tanks to be single buttons. So a lot of people don't, in fact, want "a ------- basic combo chain", as people are actively using tools to turn those into single buttons when they can get away with it.

Don't get me wrong: In my longstanding position on Healer changes, I do think having a Healer Job or two do that is fine - I've even proposed SGE have a MCH-like 1-2-3 combo chain - but giving it to every Healer just because you want convoluted extra buttons to do the same thing isn't likely to be a winning proposition.

Sorry to necro, but I still feel it's relevant now. I want to have more complexity when DPSing as a healer, especially in older content.

Some do, some don't: See above.

well I would agree its a balancing act to be sure, as when I'm playing healer and people aren't taking a lot of damage it can be a bit old having 1 main and possibly one aoe attack, and I totally understand the idea that even the healers wanting to contribute more dps. but there's the other side of the coin, when the group is taking more damage and the healer is still expected to keep up the same amount of dps even though they are now much more busy actually healing. And this can happen on the same map with different groups so how do you properly balance when the healer does what?

Pretty much.

Right now and in the past, the answer was that there were different Healer Jobs and people could use the one that more appeals to them. For example, AST has a Card side-game to distract oneself with (imagine if Cards had only 1/3rd their effect, but Draw had only a 10 sec CD...). This is good because some players want to have more to juggle and do to not get bored.

The trick is to have that gameplay exist alongside the other for those that do not.

I wouldn't specifically add a standard dps rotation but more of what Sage (and somewhat White Mage) where you can do X to build to additional damage abilities. The issue is the frequency. Sage isn't as bad with this since you have Phlegma as a filler but White Mage you basically need to waste/use three lilies to use your damage spell which can take a bit of time per Afflatus Misery.

1 spammable damage skill, 1 spammable DoT, 1 built up single target nuke, 1 built up AoE nuke should be a minimum in my opinion with additional variations for each of the healers.

Honestly, disagree.

One of the things that so annoys me on DPSers is that they, the Jobs/Role whose entire purpose is to do with damage, mind you, all have basically the same 1-2 + Job mechanic AOE rotation. MNK has a 1-2-3 + Job mechanic, but is otherwise the same. The Tanks have the same thing as well. It's so homogenized and it's not even interesting. It's even led over the years to a lot of big attacks (like Ruin 4 and Summons, and even RDM's Holy/Flare/Scorch/Resolution) being made AOE because people just want a single target ability that also works in AOE.

It's like BLM's with Dispair/Flare and Xenoglossy/Foul. While some types of players (BLMs) like this, most others...typically find it less than appealing having one button you only use for AOE and one button you only use for single target that otherwise do the exact same thing. There are probably plenty of WHM's that wouldn't mind Holy being Glare or whatnot (single spell that does both AOE and single target). Often times, the AOE rotations for Jobs are just slimmed down things that are less interesting than the single-target ones anyway, so people would rather do their single target rotation in AOE as well and just have the attacks be AOE to begin with.

It'd one one thing if the AOE rotations were all distinct...but they really aren't. So having two things that do the same thing is kind of boring to a lot of people, kind of like the difference between Glare/Glare and Glare/Water doing the same damage but being two buttons vs just one.

What's better is buttons that do different things, not buttons that do the same thing just in AOE.

...and like Ty says, WHM actually has the most DPS gameplay of all the Healers right now. It's always weird when common perception and reality meet and don't agree, but this is one case where that's true. Like the "Healers: Then and Now" thread looking at how Healers were actually played, how their kits have actually changed with time, and the realization that SCH is the worst "Boilspam" of the Healers, not WHM with Glare, which is actually the least-bad offender of 1-1-1-1 compared to the other three. Pneuma isn't really a separate spell from Dosis (same damage, just AOE I guess), and is on such a long CD that it's not really part of the standard rotation anyway, and Toxicon is gated by having only 3 to start the encounter off with and only getting more at a damage loss by casting shields and having them break.

By this logic, why did SE add Xenoglossy when BLM already used Foul even in singletarget? Why add Senei when SAM used Guren in ST? Why have any of the elemental stuff for RDM when Jolt and Impact also generate BWmana?

We aren't playing Vanilla WoW. AOE doesn't happen in most boss encounters (or is VERY short and adds are often where your AOE rotation is only marginally beneficial, if even beneficial at all), and MOST of the AOE rotations (not all, but most) are just budget "we have single target at home" versions of the single target rotations.

As for RDM specifically - because it isn't a Tank or Healer and has nothing else to do with its time, but sure, whatever. I have thought before RDM might be more enjoyable if we removed the procs. And it is obnoxious that its AOE rotation is the reverse of its single target rotation for god only knows what reason. The 1-2-1-3-1-2-1-3 gameplay on RDM is nice since it has nothing else to do. Removing the 4/5 I wouldn't be against, though. I guess you could remove Stone and Fire. Or make Thunder/Aero single target and Stone/Fire the AOE while Jolt and Impact are the shortcasts. Though I suppose Aero/Thunder would make more sense to be the AOE longcasts and Fire/Stone the single target ones. Jolt-Stone-Jolt-Fire and Impact-Thunder-Impact-Aero...yeah, that would be fun, I think. Then melee combo. Also be nice if there was a way for the AOE to also be 50/50 instead of 60/60 for, again, god only knows what reason. Just have it be two hits for 25 or something, I dunno. Or three hits of 15 each and make the AOE combo also 45/45, whatever.

When people want to play DPS Jobs, they play DPS Jobs. When playing DPS Jobs, you have nothing going on other than pressing damage buttons (and RARELY something like a mitigation). That's how the Trinity system works.

.

I do agree with Semirhage, though: 1-2-3 is fine for a few Jobs, but shouldn't be standard on everyone. Especially for Casters, RDM or SMN type rotations work better.

I wouldn't mind, though, if Fire -> Thunder or Stone -> Aero for RDM when you have Dualcast. It seems somewhat unnecessary because RDM has such good hotbar economy, but I wouldn't be opposed to it. What I'd kill for is them to make the AOE rotation Impact->Thunder->Impact->Aero, though. It being opposite the single target rotation just makes me irrationally angry.

As for the 1-2-3 - MCH also has this. SGE having something like that with lasers would probably work. My past proposals for Chemist were for it to have a 1-2-3 combo with its Caster Gun weapon, like MCH.

[Silver-Strider]

You're asking for an extra spell for no reason other than having a second button to press. No interesting interactions, no skill expression, etc.

Just pointing it out, but this is basically WHM in a nutshell.

[ForsakenRoe]

We aren't playing Vanilla WoW. AOE doesn't happen in most boss encounters (or is VERY short and adds are often where your AOE rotation is only marginally beneficial, if even beneficial at all), and MOST of the AOE rotations (not all, but most) are just budget "we have single target at home" versions of the single target rotations.

You misunderstand I think. What I mean is, when we were back in SB, BLMs used Foul, a decidedly AOE skill, in single target too, because the damage was high enough to be a valuable part of the rotation. In terms of Kenki>Potency efficiency, Guren (line aoe) was the best efficiency ratio by far. We didn't 'need' a single target version of Guren that shared a CD. We didn't 'need' a singletarget version of Foul, we already had something that was used in singletarget, and happened to be useful in AOE too. Adding 'skill, but ST version' or 'skill, but AOE version' is the lowest hanging fruit for potential expansion additions. Like, if they added 'Misery but it's single target' for WHM. Okay, we use Misery IN singletarget as it is, and it's designed to be damage neutral, so what's the point? I was honestly expecting BRD to get 'Apex Arrow but it's ST' and thankfully they instead got Blast Arrow as a followup move, rather than a ST version, but last expansion they got Shadowbite as an AOE version of Sidewinder instead of, idk, making Sidewinder AOE with damage falloff. And now Shadowbite's reworked to be the AOE equivalent of Refulgent, but without using the same proc so it's harder to flow between ST and AOE (which is something they specifically wanted designwise re: DRG and DNC procs being shared between ST and AOE), which leaves Sidewinder as this very odd singletarget OGCD that's just... there. No interplay in the kit, no AOE functionality, just... do damage to one mob

RDM is actually a good example of them course correcting on this stuff. You couldn't use the cool flashy finishing moves, one of the main draws of the job, if you were AOEing. Instead, your AOE was Moulinet spam. I mentioned to FC members in SHB an idea of 'what if the melee combo gives one stack of 'Aetherial Acceleration' per step, and Moulinet does too, and the finishers cost 3 stacks? That way you'd be able to use the finishers in AOE too!' I'm not sure what a Mana Stack is or why it's named that way but evidently me and SE were on the same wavelength (for once). Same with MNK and the Beast Chakra, you can generate nadi using AOE skills, and the Blitz's are AOE themselves. Locking the player out of 'the cool job thematic skills' because of 'well the skill is ST and you are AOEing' or vice versa is just a feelsbad for the player, and should be avoided. Like, imagine SMNs being told 'sorry, you can't actually use the Ifrit 1-2 combo in AOE, it's single target only' and 'sorry, Garuda Slipstream is AOE so you can't use it on raidbosses'. Imagine Ogi Namakiri is only good for AOE. Imagine Primal Rend, Double Down, Confiteor, Shadowbringer don't get used on raid fight rotations, because they're AOE and their potencies are scaled in such a way that means they're not worth using over the 123 of their respective jobs

edit: after rereading, I'll also clarify that I am 'ok i guess' with Despair on BLM as a skill, I don't play BLM like ever so it wouldn't affect me either way. But I think it'd have been cooler to instead find a way to make Flare useable in singletarget, rather than adding a skill that is 'Flare, but singletarget', since Flare is such an iconic FF skill and all

[ty_taurus]

Like, if they added 'Misery but it's single target' for WHM. Okay, we use Misery IN singletarget as it is, and it's designed to be damage neutral, so what's the point?

Funny enough, I was like 60% confident that EW was going to have "Afflatus Agony" which would've been equivalent to a 1200 potency Misery during Shadowbringers while Misery would've stayed at 900 potency. Better in AoE, but Agony would be your single target neutral. Not that I wanted that outcome, but it is a very common solution they reach for when they don't really want to make big changes but they still want to add something new and shiny. It's also weird how you get cases like Foul and Xenoglossy where we start with a perfectly fine attack that just happens to be AoE and then we get a stronger single target version, but then you have examples like Shoha and Shoha II where you start with a powerful single target attack and then they add a weaker AoE version that you rarely ever use in fights that matter.

There are nearly no circumstances where swapping between AoE and single target attacks has any sort of interesting or meaningful decision-making that warrants having entirely divorced AoE buttons rather than just baking AoE into single target gameplay.