Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Renathras]

...

I don't want to have this out with you here (we do that enough in the Healer forum), but the "short" version if you're so damned and determined to derail the thread is:
(in hb so as not to annoy EVERYONE ELSE here - this isn't the Healer subforum)

You already knew the answer, so it wasn't a legitimate question. The gotcha is because you think forcing an answer will result in some shift in perception or some such, when I already gave you an answer before. I take the Misshapen Chair perspective "shut up about a whole 2% damage difference". My personal perspective is that people should be able to play the things that they like. The different levels of complexity should be about having fun for those that want more not excluding those who want less. And, again, if you want to be the better person, you'd leave past discussions out of this one which isn't related to them anyway. And "they were good enough" was part of the same sentence, with the same subjects and indirect objects. There was no period there. And you're the one trying to make this into a discussion of English since, again, you already know my stance and so knew it from that sentence - or should have known - since that sentence was very clearly talking about a historic period in the past tense, not a present situation. Even if I WAS (which I'm not) saying in that sentence it was my view, that would have been 2-3 years ago, meaning our conversation from mere weeks ago would be the current one, meaning that if I HAD changed my position, it would have been in the opposite direction of that which you suggested with exaggerated incredulity. In other words, I was affirming what most people seemed to believe about ShB SMN, not my own position now (or then, but even if it was some kind of affirmation of my view, it would have been my view then, not now).

See, Ty? This is the issue I have discussing things with you. You read what I post (or sometimes don't - by your own admission), then take it in some wild direction. Then when I tell you "No, that's not what I said or meant", and even lay out how it isn't, instead of saying "Oh, I get you. My mistake", you try to justify your misunderstanding and insist it must be THE CORRECT understanding and I'm horrible at English or something for not wording it TO YOUR LIKING. In the worst case, you're either trying to insist I'm a hypocrite because you can't accept my clarification OR that I'm stupid/unintelligent for not being able to word it well (even though I do in both the initial statements AND the clarifications; you just want to misinterpret the former and ignore/reject the latter).

When someone says something, and you ask them if they meant something by it, and they tell you what they actually meant, it's incredibly rude to insist to them that your interpretation of their words/views is more accurate than their own as clarified to you, and to keep doing it even after they have clarified their position, and to use it as some kind of ongoing attack against them. Especially when you're derailing entire threads - plural, because of how often you do this - in your crusade to be "righter" and make them look stupid/foolish. At some point, it becomes malicious and, frankly, petty, in addition to rude, especially when it becomes clear that the person isn't saying what you think and that their statements are being misinterpreted by you on a consistent basis, not through fault on their part but because you want to kind of "get them" so bad you see what isn't there and refuse to let it go.

When the proper thing to do would be, after I've clarified, for you to say "Oh, I get what you mean. Sorry, my mistake." OR POSSIBLY (if you're more interested in being kind of a jerk and/or have self-esteem issues or just feel you need to justify your initial misunderstanding but still while being a decent-ish person) "Oh, I get what you mean. I thought you meant X because you said Y, but I see now with your clarification that isn't what you meant."

Instead, without fail, you always insist what I said HAS to be your interpretation, you try to justify that, and then you won't let it go, continuing to insist that your interpretation is right even several posts after I issued a clarification where you could have just let it go.

Remember what you said recently?

For example, like a week ago or so there was someone who didn't fully read a post I made in regards to the auto-battle concept and was making a comment about ways it wouldn't work based on misinformation. Rather than writing a 1200 word response on what a lying and deceitful person she was for not reading my post correctly, I very simply tried to clarify what I thought she didn't read correctly in a few words without any "you're actually wrong and this is why" type language, and the conversation resolved peacefully. Why is it that can happen with other players, but not with you?

When someone else didn't read my post, all I said was effectively 'I think you're misunderstanding,' the other person said 'oh, my bad' and we moved on.

...yet when I say "You're actually wrong because...", or "You're misunderstanding me, what I said and meant was..." you don't say "Oh, my bad" and move on, you latch onto what you THINK I said and why YOU THINK I said/meant that (even though I already at this point have clarified so there's no ambiguity) and keep trying to insist your interpretation is correct. And you do this both when you DON'T read my post and when you DO.

But, I seriously don't want to have these snippy conversations with you. If you are going to ask me "Did you mean X?!" and I answer "No, I meant Y" with "YOU MEANT X!!! THE WAY YOU SAID IT CAN ONLY BE INTERPRETED AS YOU MEAN X!!!" over and over again, there's just no point. I'm moving on. You can do the same or not, I don't care anymore. I answered your question of what I meant, so if you want to keep insisting "YOU'VE CHANGED YOUR POSITION BECAUSE YOU SAID WORDS!!!", that's on you. I genuinely can't spend my life correcting you and clarifying everything I say that you misinterpret AND reject even the clarifications of.

.

GD was right about one thing: It's a tangent argument that's irrelevant and started from him derailing the thread. Time to get back to the topic at hand.

[ty_taurus]

[...]

You're literally describing yourself my guy, but whatever. Tried to have a normal conversation, but it's not worth it I guess.

[GaiusDrakon]

You're literally describing yourself my guy, but whatever. Tried to have a normal conversation, but it's not worth it I guess.

he's a 12 year old kid who can't handle the fact that some players know more than him, its fine

even if you show him all your accomplishments he will still argue with you to the death

i've already told him how to look me up but obviously he doesn't care

[Fable_Frost]

GD was right about one thing: It's a tangent argument that's irrelevant and started from him derailing the thread. Time to get back to the topic at hand.

The topic at hand would appear to be something you have no experience with, yet you're calling out people left right and centre and acting like the law of the forums, congratulating people when they agree with you.

Get a grip.

[Renathras]

You're literally describing yourself my guy, but whatever. Tried to have a normal conversation, but it's not worth it I guess.

No, you didn't.

This is the point you could say 'oh, my bad'. You didn't try to have a normal... /sigh

Whatever.

he's a 12 year old kid who can't handle the fact that some players know more than him, its fine

Ah, the casual who hasn't cleared PotD or BA or any raid is back to show us more how he doesn't know anything about the game. I'm still waiting for that marriage proposal, since you're stalking me so much.

The topic at hand would appear to be something you have no experience with, yet you're calling out people left right and centre and acting like the law of the forums, congratulating people when they agree with you.

Who are you?

I have more experience with the content than you do, apparently.

You're calling out people and acting like the law of the forums. ("the law of the forums"? What's that even mean?)

I'm expressing agreement with people when I agree with them. That's a crime? Are we NOT supposed to agree with people? "congratulating"? What? o.O

I have more experience with this topic than you do, it seems.

It's really interesting seeing a bunch of people posting on users that have no clear data insisting that only they get to talk about something that would affect the entire playerbase...

EDIT:

But, this also isn't relevant.

Let's try getting back to relevance, before we got on this weird...tangent:

I do agree that the problem has been misidentified and the Devs have taken several steps in the wrong directions. Off the top of my head:

1) Big spikes of damage + long downtimes in between them.

2) Tons of healing in healer oGCDs.

3) Tons of healer oGCDs in general.

4) Fights too movement focused (this isn't just a Healer issue; BLM is now more mobile than RDM because IT HAS TO BE)

5) Tons of healing from Tanks.

6) Tons of healing from DPS.

7) Tons of mitigation from DPS.

8) That MUCH of that healing and mitigation costs DPSers and Tanks nothing (special shout-out to Clemency and Vercure actually costing damage to use, though they're still not SUPER MP limited; contrast Curing Waltz, Phoenix, Nascent for no trade at all)

9) Little unavoidable damage/damage telegraphs largely being pass/fail mechanics that outright kill or inflict a debuff a Healer can do nothing about if failed.

10) The Healer Jobs are all (arguably) near identical; especially in their DPS kits, but many of the heals have a 1-to-1 or near 1-to-1, meaning if people don't like the way current Healer Jobs play, there's no alternative to them that isn't "play a DPS/Tank". Having the Healer Jobs be more distinct would greatly help with that since people would have an outlet for something different (this also isn't just a Healer issue; Tanks are suffering from this one in a lot of ways right now, too, and there's a thread in the Tank forum of people talking/complaining about how the Tanks all feel too similar.)

More on point 8, as it's the big culprit a lot of the time with the 1/0 Healer clears: A TON of this healing is "for free". Back in ARR/HW, if a PLD wanted to heal the party, they could. They had Cure 1 as a Cross-Class option. But using it was a pretty big loss of damage and agro, AND it cost MP which they needed for Flash if they were reducing their agro by engaging in Cure 1 spam. Needless to say, Cure 1 spam was relatively weak AND only considered in dire situations. It was not a go-to that could be worked into the rotation seemlessly like it can be today. And Clemency is one of the BETTER (that is, lesser offenders) in this situation.

WAR - the barbarian with an inner beast - is able to HEAL PARTY MEMBERS. When did that start making sense to people? "To angry to die" is one thing, but "so angry, it un-dies other people" is quite another. When did it make sense for WARs to become party healers in lore or mechanics? And that's before getting to the utter ridiculouslness of WAR using Bloodwhetting/Nascent and then AOEing 8+ enemies for 25 sec Benediction spam for themselves (and a party member) for 8 seconds. DNC has a 600 potency (two 300 potency) AOE party heals that cost no damage. Sure, it's on a 2 min CD, but its 1.5x Indoms for the cost of nothing other than the CD to use them. WAR and GNB both get pretty powerful heals on a 25 sec CD for a party member or themselves, and in WAR's case, or BOTH. GNB has a 90 sec 2 charge Regen, though that's not nearly as big an offender. All the Tanks have pretty strong self-heals just baked into their rotations. SMN has a big party heal baked into its rotation.

Clemency and Vercure are the only exceptions here, and they're probably still a little TOO powerful (contrast HW Cure 1 400 potency with Clemency's 1000, and that was MIND based curing; Clemency scales off of STR and Weapon Damage), but at least there's a strong tradeoff there, even if it can be made up by having a 5th DPS. And it's been a while, but I feel like the first iterations of Clemency cost more. Like 4,000 MP in ShB more, and probably more for lower levels (back before MP pools were fixed at 10k), meaning you could only use them so many times straight. Oh, and PLD didn't have self-healing baked into its core rotation NOR additional healing from Shelltron.

Then we get into mitigation. Every Job has at least one, several have two, some have three. With the right comp, you could have 16 mitigations easily with no Healers, and several of those will be 1 min meaning up twice every 2 minutes. That's something like 20-24 mitigations per 2 min time period in a party with zero Healers, meaning the party can mitigate literally everything without even needing a Healer around for that, Barrier or otherwise. Hell, some of the DPS have more party mitigation than WHM does!

[spacing added vs original]

Please do tell me what's wrong with this assessment, or what your contra assessment is. Or feel free to express agreement. /shrug

[ForsakenRoe]

Please do tell me what's wrong with this assessment, or what your contra assessment is. Or feel free to express agreement. /shrug

The assessment is fine, it identifies the problem. The issue everyone is taking is not with your problem finding skills, but with your proposed solution to the problem. It's akin to saying 'yeh we should have all the melee be of different simplicity levels so that everyone has a class they can enjoy', leading to one of the melee, probably SAM at this point, let's be real, being reduced in skill ceiling to just being 'build sen spend sen'. Kaiten gone, people couldn't remember to save 20 gauge for it. Senei gauge pooling gone, Ikishoten gives 50 and Senei costs 25, you're always going to have enough. At this rate, in 7.0 Higanbana will be gone, because people are bad at remembering to apply a dot once a minute.

And when someone on the forums says 'damn I miss when SAM had a skill ceiling and you had optimizations you could do on it' your response is that 'no it has to stay braindead because otherwise you alienate the people who like the braindead gameplay', it's a ridiculous stance to take and that's why you get called out on it so much

Also I know you don't like comparing post like counts, insisting they're not a valid way to measure sentiment, but they're all we have here. And I see a whole lot of 10+ arguing against you, and a whole lot of 1's and 2's for you. Probably just the 'echo chamber' at work again, right? Everyone's always against Ren what a cruel world

[Renathras]

I'm not going to be wasting my time on you any further cause it just seems like every conversation we have just goes around in circles.
But you clearly have a very weird way of going about your arguments.

You present a solution to the problem, people disagree with you and they back their arguments up with well thought-out points that came from experience, and those points actually make sense.

That's literally what I have done.

You can disagree with someone's position, but it's not right to lie about what their position is or how they've defended it.

Anyway, yeah, I used to think it's always possible to have a rational discussion with anyone. That talking is good, finding compromise/meeting in the middle is good, and so on. These threads have me reevaluating that position. Not that you need listen, but in the future, if people give you a position based on insight, you contest it, and they defend their position with argument, you should listen to them. Strawmaning either their position or their argument style while suggesting the opposition (on your side) isn't that (Gaius' posts in here have been "well thought-out points that came from experience"? REALLY? You're going with calling digital heckling "well-thought out"?) is just outright lying.

It's also telling that the posts getting the most upvotes are those that are just plain and simple heckling, not actual arguments or proposals.

Let's take a look:

You're literally describing yourself my guy, but whatever. Tried to have a normal conversation, but it's not worth it I guess.

20 Likes

he's a 12 year old kid who can't handle the fact that some players know more than him, its fine

16 Likes (who also edited his post later after it got a bunch of those likes to include the other lines; and no, he won't post on his main or say who his main is to look up, and when I asked him, said he wouldn't tell me because it wouldn't make a difference - the exact opposite of his lying statement now:

Literally no point of me posting on my main lmao. You're still going to argue and will still dig your heels in.

Apparently, people like lies so much they'll upvote abject lies as long as they support said poster bashing/heckling someone else...)

The topic at hand would appear to be something you have no experience with, yet you're calling out people left right and centre and acting like the law of the forums, congratulating people when they agree with you.

Get a grip.

19 Likes

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Which of these posts was a "well thought-out argument based on experience that made sense"? Ty's was a continuation of his long-standing feud with me from the Healer forum where he misinterprets what I say, when I clarify insists his misinterpretation is even more right than me telling him outright what I meant, and will never admit he was wrong about it. Gaius' post is a "he's a child" insult, where he says "even if you show him all your accomplishments" (something he's refused to do even once), and he's well known on General Discussion here for being a troll with a thread he started having basically every poster who is a common poster here in General point out that he's a well known troll who loves to harass people and posts on various alt accounts (actual ACCOUNTS) because he doesn't want people knowing what he actually has done or not done. And Fable I've honestly not encountered much other than her complaining about post length in a DPS thread on SMN instead of reading or responding to the arguments in the posts.

If you're going to call those well thought-out and sensible posts and mine not...you might want to reconsider your analytical techniques...

That tells me the people posting/liking posts here don't want well thought-out points that come from experience and make sense - which, for the record, mine are and have been - they want heckling and jeering of people who are making well thought-out posts from experience that make sense but with which they disagree personally and so prefer the heckling to having to confront difficult arguments that contest their views.

The dirty secret is, if I clear every Savage and Ultimate in this game, you'd just find something else to attack me over because you don't want agreement, middle-ground, or compromise. That I haven't is just your low hanging fruit excuse not to listen.

The assessment is fine, it identifies the problem.

Well, that's good at least.

As to your statement of my proposed solution:

My proposed solution is:

I'm trying to remember all the points, but things like damage not being regular, continued attacks on Tanks by bosses while casting (something you've proposed yourself), more consistent but smaller raidwide unavoidable damage that requires consistent healing (so cannot be treated by oGCDs alone), reducing oGCD healing power A LOT and making oGCDs more on abilities that augment GCD heals and mitigation (Presence of Mind, Divine Seal, Thin Air, Plenary Indulgence, Recitation, Deployment Tactics, Emergency Tactics, Fey Illumination) rather than REPLACE them. I'd honestly love it if Healer Jobs only had 1-2 oGCDs that healed and they had long CDs and were for clutch or emergency use, or extremely planned use, like how Tank Invulns (especially Hollowed and Bolide) are used; like how Benediction was GENERALLY used in ARR. You might notice that I point out a lot of abilities that were from ARR's WHM kit, or abilities in a similar vein. And to do this while nerfing the healing of Tanks and DPS and the mitigation from DPS.

Make more GCD actions, not less. Imagine WHM right now if it didn't have Afflatus heals (say you still get Misery every 1 min, whatever), Assize, Asylum, Tetra, Divine Benison, Aquaveil, and Temperance only had the heal boosting Divine Seal component. BUT, WHM also has an aoe mitigation cast spell (Protect) and a single target 500 potency barrier spell GCD (Stoneskin), and its oGCDs were all the kind that augment their GCD heals to make them more mana (Thin Air), hps (Presence of Mind), or both (Plenary Indulgence) efficient. The gameplay would revolve around using GCDs to heal your party, using oGCDs if you need to boost that for hard content.

Since the GCDs are still entirely functional, this doesn't hurt casual players in casual content.

Since the oGCDs only strengthen GCDs but GCDs are still required, even high end players would still break up their Glarespam for GCD spells that weren't Glare/Dia/Holy, thus being less "mind numbing" since it requires active engagement. YES, using them well would mean more GCDs for Glare, but you'd still need to break that up with GCDs for healing, and the content would still require consistent use of heals, thus being more engaging.

And in harder content, it would encourage intelligent use of oGCDs to augment healing, meaning high end players would still be engaged and the midcore would be more pressed but still be able to meet requirements. "Jonny Casual" isn't doing Ultimates, so this won't matter there.

While you might not find that the most fun thing ever, it's clearly better than what we have now AND would mean these "0 Healer clears" of content would no longer be a thing.

If you actually addressed what my stances are, not caricatures/strawmen of them, there might be a point in the discussion.

Many others besides me are saying these things, too.

And also:

Also I know you don't like comparing post like counts, insisting they're not a valid way to measure sentiment, but they're all we have here. And I see a whole lot of 10+ arguing against you, and a whole lot of 1's and 2's for you. Probably just the 'echo chamber' at work again, right? Everyone's always against Ren what a cruel world

Considering how you get likes for misrepresenting or misunderstanding my position, and Gauis gets likes for heckling, I would say that the like counter is, indeed, a completely useless metric, yes. Hundreds of people have posted in these threads and you get ~10 likes on things, with ~20 likes on outright heckle posts? Yeah, pretty sure that makes it a pretty terrible metric to use for anything meaningful. Maybe if the heckling posts weren't getting so highly rated, and maybe if the pro-heckle/jeer crowd wasn't overplaying their hands by liking rampant rule violation rude heckling posts, the metric would have more meaning.

But it doesn't because of that. Well, that and other reasons, besides.

.

Oh:

And bring back nAST.

I forgot to add that one above.

There is a meaning, and it's that Ren Thras is a meme.

Says the stalker.

If you want to look me up the second post of this thread gives ample hints.

Nope. You can post on your main or you can't. You haven't, and even refused to. All you've done is troll, heckle, stalk, and harass people, and been rewarded for it by people who I guess don't know better or who support internet bullying and stalking. And I'm not going to devote posts to you further. Troll harder. Or better yet, stop trolling.

Going to put my replies to you in hb going forward to spare sane people of having to be exposed to your trollish jeering and heckling anymore than necessary.