Suggestion for NIN ability Huraijin

[Renathras]

Just a thought. Less a proposal and more just a feedback/what are the downsides/upsides of doing this.

Perhaps it's just me, and it's NOT the worst offender by far, but I feel NIN has just a bit of button bloat, and this particular ability just...bugs me for some reason. It's a level 60 capstone ability, but it's also an ability that should GENERALLY never be used outside of (a) KO recovery or (b) an extended downtime (but less than 50 or so seconds) to prevent Huton falling off (or restore it after said downtime). So it has SOME uses, but...

...next to this we have Armor Crush, a branching -4 from your standard 1-2-(3) combo. When used as the third hit of the combo, it goes from 140/200(Flank) damage to 360/420(Flank) damage, increases Huton by 30 seconds (to a maximum of 60), and grants 15 Ninki Gauge.

Huraijin, by contrast, requires no combo, grants 60 seconds of Huton, 5 Ninki Gauge, and deals 200 damage regardless of position.

So just a THOUGHT:

What if instead of a separate ability, Huraijin was a Trait upgrade to Armor Crush? The upgrade would result in the following ability:

Huraijin
Weaponskill
Instant Cast
2.5 sec base recast
Range 3y / Radius 0y
(all the standard stuff)
Delivers an attack with a potency of 200.
Additional Effect: Grants Huton
Duration: 30s.
Increases Ninki Gauge by 5
Combo Action: Gust Slash
Combo Potency: 360
Flank Combo Potency: 420
Additional Effect: Grants Huton
Duration: 60s
Increases Ninki Gauge by 15

So, what does this DO?

In the first case, it allows applying Huton from nothing (no combo, just flat hitting the button at any time) for 30 seconds, mirroring what Huraijin does. In fact, it does the same thing Huraijin does now, just for half the duration.

In the second case, using it properly as a combo action, it gives the full duration of Huton, but requires using the proper prior two steps in the combo, meaning some forethought if the goal is to extend through a downtime longer than 30 seconds, and otherwise, it functions identically to Armor Crush right now. (We could also lower this to 30 seconds, that part doesn't matter as much I suppose, but I thought retaining that niche use wouldn't be a bad thing)

Now we've cut out one button almost never used (IDEALLY never used), while retaining its functionality. It's still a DPS loss to use it by itself, and un-comboed acts just like Huraijin does now, just for half the duration. Which shouldn't matter in most contexts since you should be refreshing it with the comboed version anyway, which you should use before extended downtimes as a finisher of your combo, so the skill ceiling isn't really altered here since you're exchanging a standalone extra button (hard because button, easy because no combo) for a non-extra button you're using at the end of a combo for this purpose.

I suppose the one quick critique might be that you use the -4 less so 1-2-3 more (making the duration only 30 sec either way handles that, though), and that some people might like the Armor Crush animation better and some people might like having a separate button for this...but...

Another critique might be that it makes it where you don't need to use Huton itself except in the pre-fight opener...but this is ALREADY the case from level 60 and above. Huton does no damage and costs you a Raiton (650 damage), and that 650 potency loss is going to be greater than any use of Huraijin as far as I can tell, meaning ifyou have to refresh Huton from a fall-off in battle, it will NEVER be with Huton under any circumstance in combat anyway unless you get raised INTO a 21+ second downtime (where Ninjutsu would have a full time to refresh after using it). So we're already at the point in the Job/game's life where you aren't doing a "naked" Huton refresh during fights anyway, not to mention if you did so, you'd get the full 60 seconds, making un-comboed Armor Crush-Huraijin's 30 sec still be a cost-benefit for you to make on the fly (though the answer would always be Huraijin as far as I can tell...)

I dunno, I'm sure there are arguments against it, so I thought I would post the idea and see what they were or if people would be like "No, this actually sounds good."

(Honestly, the only other thing I'd do with NIN is make Meisui an additional effect of Trick Attack since you have no reason to keep Suiton after using Trick Attack and it's kind of an extra button just to have an extra button...but their CDs don't line up. Could be an additional effect on Mug, though, but...meh. Beside the point, ignore.)

[Mahimahi]

There are some fights where Hurajin makes sense- Sophia for instance after the adds where you don't have to waste a ninjutsu on Huton. Personally I would change it from a weaponskill to simply an ability to refresh the duration, that way I can activate it from anywhere on the field.

[wereotter]

There are some fights where Hurajin makes sense- Sophia for instance after the adds where you don't have to waste a ninjutsu on Huton. Personally I would change it from a weaponskill to simply an ability to refresh the duration, that way I can activate it from anywhere on the field.

the problem with making it an ability means there would be no reason to ever use armor crush, just weave in hurajin.

[Yasminou]

the problem with making it an ability means there would be no reason to ever use armor crush, just weave in hurajin.

I guess the idea would be to put a cooldown which is more than 60 seconds, say 120 seconds. That way, you could apply Huton with it for 60 seconds, then refresh it twice for 30 seconds with Armor crush until Hurajin can be applied again. Though the timing might be so strict that a 3rd Armor crush could be needed and This might become clunky.

I find the OP's WS merging a good idea.

[NobleWinter]

When I first saw Huraijin being introduced I hoped it was going to be part of a much bigger overhaul. Using three Mudra to cast Huton always felt like a waste of time in ARR. Once Armor Crush was added in Heavensward it felt like a much better system being able to upkeep the speed buff without wasting Mudra to fill your gauge. Huraijin irks me though as it seems to somewhat invalidate both Huton and Armor Crush. A weapon skill that completely fills the Huton Gauge with the benefit of doing damage at the same time and requiring no buildup really steps on the toes of the previous abilities. All three skills have optimal times to be used but in my opinion we have too many ways to interact with the Huton Gauge and now none of them feel very rewarding. Merging Huton and Huraijin is indeed one way to address this but I would want to go even further personally. In my ideal world Huraijin would be the only way to increase the Huton Gauge and function similar to Armor Crush with a flank positional for more damage without interrupting our melee combo like Throwing Dagger. This would allow Armor Crush to take the raid buff from Mug and be a weapon skill with an independent 2 minute cooldown like Drill on MCH. Now the buttons have completely different identity and Mug doesn't have the oddity of increasing Ninki Gauge by 40 while also starting our burst window and needing to be double weaved with Trick Attack. It's all so cumbersome currently. As for the Huton Mudra I would rather give it some utility like being a powerful targetable heal for ourselves or anyone else. Damage would still be optimal but having the option to heal someone in a pinch would be very welcome. Having more options than just aoe damage or single target damage would add depth to the mudra system and with no extra buttons to squeeze on the hotbar. Changing Hyoton (the two step ice mudra nobody uses) to be centered on the Ninja and bind nearby enemies for 10 seconds would be a much welcome change as well. Give Hyoton the additional effect of reducing the cooldown on Shadeshift by 60 seconds and it's suddenly a system where every mudra combination has some use even if niche. The way we play with Ninja can be better adapted to handle solo duties, fates, deep dungeons, and scuffed runs where just a tiny bit of healing or mitigation could pull us through. The mudra system should allow us to do a lot of interesting things to spice up our gameplay at our own discretion but it's just not being utilized well with Hyoton and Huton basically being dead options in comparison to the other choices.

[Shurrikhan]

...

Seen this suggestion several times even back in Week 1 of Endwalker's release. Still surprised it has yet to have been implemented, as there are no downsides to the consolidation.

There's no point in having separate buttons for Armor Crush and Huraijin both. And the latter seems the more thematically appropriate for a Huton-extender, and more in keeping with the other NIN animations.

[Arohk]

Perhaps it's just me, and it's NOT the worst offender by far, but I feel NIN has just a bit of button bloat,

a bit? I's the most bloated job of all.

[Deo14]

a bit? I's the most bloated job of all.

I would really love to hear your definition of button bloat to have a good laugh. What even is NIN's button bloat? The worst I can see is Bhavacabra and frog, since it's just another ST/AoE variant, Huraijin is situational, but still usefull button. Dream Within Dream is technically just bland oGCD with just damage, but if that's bloat for you, then oh boy, don't check other jobs. Maybe Fleeting/Forked Raiju? Community asked for splitting it, it was one button at EW release. Then there's Hide, but you still use it every pre-pull and you'd need to rework some job quests if you removed it.

Please show me on this picture where do you see button bloat. And please don't tell me that button bloat is when you have too many buttons.



Even if you wanted to use your warped definition of button bloat to claim that NIN is most bloated, keep in mind that PLD still exists.

[Renathras]

I would really love to hear your definition of button bloat to have a good laugh.
...
Even if you wanted to use your warped definition of button bloat to claim that NIN is most bloated, keep in mind that PLD still exists.

NIN has a lot of buttons - in sheer numbers - and a ton of those are needed in the single target rotation, meaning there's not a lot you can "leave off". It doesn't really have anything like "Cure 1/Physic/Benefic" that is pointless to even put on your bar. It has a lot of overall buttons for people to try to fit on their hotbars in vaguely ergonomic ways (this is more a controller problem than a keyboard one, granted), and there's very little that can be dropped because of them having use cases.

Contrast with something like RDM to see a Job that DOESN'T have button bloat, largely because its buttons change with context (Enchanted melee strikes, Holy/Flare/Scorch/Resolution for examples)

The argument with NIN isn't that it's buttons aren't USEFUL (there are certainly Jobs with bloat that could just be removed and they don't do anything meaningful), but NIN suffers from...if you prefer, "button inflation", as the buttons are all useful, it just has arguably too many of them (this is also true of Jobs like SCH and AST which have most of their buttons being useful to them, but just has a high VOLUME/number of them). The issue of Jobs with button inflation is that it's even harder to find things to cut. It's easy to say, for example, PLD should just have Goring Blade's damage added to Requiescat or the Blades magic combo, since the extra button doesn't have any meaningful gameplay purpose (you ALWAYS use it in your FoF+Req window), and likewise for GNB's Sonic Break. But with NIN, there's far less fat to trim. It has a lot of bulk, but that bulk is mostly essential muscle, not nonessential fat that can be trimmed away.

Indeed, that's why I point out Huraijin as part of that fat, since there's very little otherwise TO trim, but NIN arguably needs some trimming due to the sheer volume of abilities it has. I agree it's not the worst offender in the game, but it's definitely up there on the button inflation front.

...also, you left off LB and Potion, so that's 35 total buttons. Which is a lot.

[Deo14]

NIN has a lot of buttons - in sheer numbers - and a ton of those are needed in the single target rotation, meaning there's not a lot you can "leave off". It doesn't really have anything like "Cure 1/Physic/Benefic" that is pointless to even put on your bar. It has a lot of overall buttons for people to try to fit on their hotbars in vaguely ergonomic ways (this is more a controller problem than a keyboard one, granted), and there's very little that can be dropped because of them having use cases.

NIN is really nothing out of ordinary. Counting every single ability + pot + LB, he has 35. From random jobs I've got counted, PLD has 37, SAM 36, DRK and SCH 35, BLM 31, even SMN which is mocked for being braindead has 27 buttons. NIN is really average in this regard, if you have problem with this, then you should get keybinds which are more comfortable for you, because complaints about number of buttons are rare, and are especially rare from people who actually do put in effort into their gameplay. Remember that there are special mice for MMORPGs, this is nothing unusual, too hard or complicated.

Contrast with something like RDM to see a Job that DOESN'T have button bloat, largely because its buttons change with context (Enchanted melee strikes, Holy/Flare/Scorch/Resolution for examples)

Which is why I'm personally not fan of RDM or SMN. But that's fine, not all jobs should be for everyone.

The argument with NIN isn't that it's buttons aren't USEFUL (there are certainly Jobs with bloat that could just be removed and they don't do anything meaningful), but NIN suffers from...if you prefer, "button inflation", as the buttons are all useful, it just has arguably too many of them (this is also true of Jobs like SCH and AST which have most of their buttons being useful to them, but just has a high VOLUME/number of them). The issue of Jobs with button inflation is that it's even harder to find things to cut. It's easy to say, for example, PLD should just have Goring Blade's damage added to Requiescat or the Blades magic combo, since the extra button doesn't have any meaningful gameplay purpose (you ALWAYS use it in your FoF+Req window), and likewise for GNB's Sonic Break. But with NIN, there's far less fat to trim. It has a lot of bulk, but that bulk is mostly essential muscle, not nonessential fat that can be trimmed away.

So where do you think we should draw the line? I really don't see this complaint often, so I would dare to say that even current PLD's 37 is fine. Another NIN specific counterpoint - having more colorful and interesting buttons which are part of your main rotation is great, because without them, let's say without Kassatsu and Meisui, it would be very bland, since NIN has filler with just a boring 1-2-3, 1-2-4.

I don't play NIN often, and as it seems like you don't either. From what I've heard from actual NIN mains, is that they love the busy burst. So why should we take that from them? Just play the jobs you like and hope some genius who doesn't even play the job won't ruin it because "it's too hard". Everything is hard if you don't learn it.

Indeed, that's why I point out Huraijin as part of that fat, since there's very little otherwise TO trim, but NIN arguably needs some trimming due to the sheer volume of abilities it has. I agree it's not the worst offender in the game, but it's definitely up there on the button inflation front.

...also, you left off LB and Potion, so that's 35 total buttons. Which is a lot.

You should just bind very situational or infrequent buttons in less comfortable buttons, that's what I do. Before I switched to ST/AoE stances, I used to have SAM's Ikishoten and other long CD skills on Shift + 123. Obviously not the most convenient buttons, but clicking them few times per fight is really nothing hard. 35 buttons is really not that lot, especially since half of them are situational or infrequent.