Ok asking for advice

[Ath192]

There's a practice dummy with a DPS check?? ...1st I'm hearing of this LoL that is a awesome feature in game but I will be sure to let people know about it, I'm sure this will be learning curve regardless for everyone since we are all new to this stuf so I'm sure some rotations will need to be adjusted to perform better, Also we probably won't be starting EXACTLY when 6.4 comes out because our sage 2 weeks after has to go home cuz his dad is getting out of the hospital to visit so our expected start is ~ 4-6 weeks after 6.4 launches to casually approach it so I'm sure there will be many fleshed out strategies before we enter but this life.

As for Dixie we are setting them (very low honestly to start because so many new people 1st time raiding our biggest focus is learning in knowledge of the game, out class and improvement for this 1st one) gearing is set, working with understanding jobs and buff windows, we know all the icons from dungeons now if their are raid specific video guides hopefully do good job of showing and explaining them

Ty both for the suggestions and tips

Yeah lol, a lot of people don't know about it. In that case you could have them practice on the Dummy for the EX that comes out in 6.4 whenever yall are ready. Keep in mind it's going to be harder than Rubi on starter gear since gear resets in 6.4 whereas people right now overpower Rubi on 6.3 end gear. But it is a great asset for starting out imo.

The last thing is the game works in waves. So be advised that the more the tier progress the quality of PF deteriorates in case you're not 8/8. It's not to say that late tier is impossible or anything but it is slightly harder as a lot of players get bored and quit/stop raiding after a couple of months. If you are into raiding later down, you want to catch the early wave and ride it.

[Mcg55ss]

Yeah lol, a lot of people don't know about it. In that case you could have them practice on the Dummy for the EX that comes out in 6.4 whenever yall are ready. Keep in mind it's going to be harder than Rubi on starter gear since gear resets in 6.4 whereas people right now overpower Rubi on 6.3 end gear. But it is a great asset for starting out imo.

The last thing is the game works in waves. So be advised that the more the tier progress the quality of PF deteriorates in case you're not 8/8. It's not to say that late tier is impossible or anything but it is slightly harder as a lot of players get bored and quit/stop raiding after a couple of months. If you are into raiding later down, you want to catch the early wave and ride it.

Just how it is family comes first and I have known him 10years and this really upset him, we might miss the initial wave like you say but that will just have to be our loss but like I said my expectations right now are just to see us as a group growth, improvement and us come closer together as a unit on a night to night scale I'm not setting kills as what I want because we have many so green to the experience Full clear on content would make me happy but most important thing to me is improving into next expansion where initial nerves are gone people have more confidence in themselves and then I will focus more on clearing content but for now I'm looking for that individual development. Thanks for advice

[Mcg55ss]

I mean... there's good advice here and elsewhere in the thread, but OP specified most of the players are new to raiding and I can't help but think this would suck a lot of the fun out of the whole experience for them as sprouts starting on the raid scene, not to mention potentially intimidate or overwhelm them. He also said they are friends, so I doubt advising him to treat the whole deal like a business transaction and view members as disposable commodities is what he's looking for.

We all have our own preferences for playing, of course, and what we're hoping to get out of it, but some of it seems kind of cold, and even as a more experienced player it sounds like a good way to make Savage a bit of a miserable experience. Not everyone is out purely for the drops; some people actually want to have a good time with friends as well.

It may come off as cold but I did ask for advice and any bit of info I can get helps, to some people raiding is just a transaction, they put in time they expect gear in the end and that's all they care about. Whike atm I don't think anybody in our group cares about the gear most of us just want to do it for the experience and do it together because we know even if we fail we can pick on each other laugh at our mistakes and work on improving. I'm more asking for advice that stuff I don't know that would help us and prevent failing like making sure everybody understands our goals which I talked about to them but I had like made it official about the training dummy DPS check which I had no idea existed in this game and a few other things that I've learned on the way (like how FF player is weary of FC raid teams) but again I'm just as green as everybody else going I'm just the ex-military guy that used to lead people in raids in WoW and the one who stepped up so I ended up leading this lol. I'm not taking anybody's information on how I should run people because I know how to manage people I've done it many times in game and in real life scenarios from dealing with drama to dealing with how people handle stuff like criticism, however anything that can help me teach them more about what they need to be prepared for in raids getting a different person's perspective on what I should do could also help me be a better leader to my group, because most people talking are probably talking from what they've experienced in past or what they wish they would have known or done in their group before. Knowledge is the key to victory in everything so I post this to gather the community's knowledge because it is far greater than mine in this aspect and having so many diverse people chime in from hardcore raiding and ultimates like Dixie to more average I can better equip my people for success. Take everything in a positive light

[Lunaxia]

Yes, I was very cold and objective. And I get the...

I think those people (or those they fought with) have more problems either with themselves or those friendships than they're aware of if Savage is enough to tear them apart, but I'm aware this is an MMO we're talking about here.

Like I said, there's certainly good advice from a practical perspective, and input from experienced raiders can be invaluable. But recalling my early experiences, and having also been in OP's position as a leader of a group of first-timers on a few occasions who were incredibly reluctant to try because they didn't believe they were inherently good enough and were wary of encountering similarly cut-throat attitudes, I think it's important to remember the human element here and that when you are raiding you are dealing with people, not a composite of numbers on a screen. The sad thing is they were actually really interested in Savage, but saw it as the domain of some hardcore, super-player collective and were convinced they had no place there due to the sense of gatekeeping surrounding it with obsessions over logs and achievements and the like. And again, some people do play it and get a sense of satisfaction from that perspective, and that's fine - but that's not what it's all about, and certainly not for everybody who plays. I just wanted to reinforce that, for those who perhaps weren't aware.

It may come off as cold but I did ask for advice.

I'm glad you've been able to find some useful information, and that you can take what you personally need from it and apply it to your own situation as needs be. I know other people in your position can find it a bit daunting and wanted to add in such approaches to Savage are not universal, and it's more accessible than people sometimes realise and more than capable of being a source of fun challenges for groups to enjoy, since that can often be forgotten about amidst all the hubbub about rotations and numbers. I hope it works out for you.

[Ath192]

I think those people (or those they fought with) have more problems either with themselves or those friendships than they're aware of if Savage is enough to tear them apart, but I'm aware this is an MMO we're talking about here.

Like I said, there's certainly good advice from a practical perspective, and input from experienced raiders can be invaluable. But recalling my early experiences, and having also been in OP's position as a leader of a group of first-timers on a few occasions who were incredibly reluctant to try because they didn't believe they were inherently good enough and were wary of encountering similarly cut-throat attitudes, I think it's important to remember the human element here and that when you are raiding you are dealing with people, not a composite of numbers on a screen. The sad thing is they were actually really interested in Savage, but saw it as the domain of some hardcore, super-player collective and were convinced they had no place there due to the sense of gatekeeping surrounding it with obsessions over logs and achievements and the like. And again, some people do play it and get a sense of satisfaction from that perspective, and that's fine - but that's not what it's all about, and certainly not for everybody who plays. I just wanted to reinforce that, for those who perhaps weren't aware.

You highlight my post on what's convenient for you. For one I don't like being conflated with people who gatekeep raiding, that's not acceptable to me especially when I'm trying to help out. I would thank you not to associate me with those people when you quote me like the example is somehow related.

For another, if you knew people who were reluctant to try raiding I don't know why you as the leader were pushing them to do something they were reluctant to do to begin with. People don't have to raid if they aren't comfortable with it. And for someone who talks about the human element you've really done a stellar job at dehumanizing me like I'm this robot.

Your post rubs me the wrong way and I feel its hypocritical to take aim at someone who's trying to help and talk about empathy at the same time. Maybe if you are going to be considerate, be considerate of everyone in the conversation. I think you should know that because what you've said here really does bother me when you quote me and go railing against people who seem to have offended you in the past. I felt like I had to say something about this.

[Lunaxia]

You highlight my post...

Far from it, I've already said there's plenty of good practical advice there. But when your first thought with a bunch of new players who are friends looking to try Savage is to immediately get them on the dummy for DPS checks - which feels like a quick way to foster self-doubt and kill off enthusiasm - and advising OP in the event of "drop offs" I feel like you've already forgotten what actually matters to some people. Likewise, what you consider saving yourself a "waste of time" could still be a worthwhile and enjoyable experience for others even if it doesn't play out the way they hoped. It does come off as cold and unnecessarily procedural to me, regardless of whether that offends you or not, and reminiscent of the attitudes I'm talking about here.

You've also managed to miss where I said they were very interested in Savage and wanted to try, after having grown accustomed to casual endgame - but had adopted the myth you have to be a certain type of player to be able to even attempt it and were nervous about encountering backlash for not immediately meeting certain standards. It takes time to adjust, and easing them into it and enjoying the fights rather than scaring them off with DPS numbers was crucial to breaking through it.

I've been doing Savage long enough to know that it's unfortunately common for raiders to fail to realise approaches they consider effective or practical can come across as callous and potentially hurtful, especially if they've been playing a while. It's a strategy designed for efficiency, but the cynicism (which anyone who has been raiding for any length of time can be prone to) that arises from it can blind you to such obvious facts as this is a game you are playing with others, and that was all I wanted to say. I can't help but feel I've touched a nerve here, and when you phrase it as "railing off against people who seem to have offended me" for pointing out the impact such views can have on the other side of the screen, it doesn't really convince me any of what I've said here is unwarranted.

[Ath192]

Far from it, I've already said there's plenty of good practical advice there. But when your first thought with a bunch of new players who are friends looking to try Savage is to immediately get them on the dummy for DPS checks - which feels like a quick way to foster self-doubt and kill off enthusiasm

...

I can't help but feel I've touched a nerve here, and when you phrase it as "railing off against people who seem to have offended me" for pointing out the impact such views can have on the other side of the screen, it doesn't really convince me any of what I've said here is unwarranted.

Completely disagree with you here. Beating a dummy that represents the DPS check for the fight you are up against is an empowering feeling, and it brings a sense of peace and excitement knowing you just proved you can do it to yourself. Your entire premise is something completely intangible and circumstantial because some people prefer to be coddled and others prefer information to be handed to them straight up without embellishment. Feelings matter, I assure you more feelings are hurt when people don't know if they are the problem or not than when they know they are well prepared and practiced.

Your perspective on my phrasing bespeaks to your own cynicism and assumptions of my post. Since much of a dialogue can also change depending on a persons tone and inflection you have no idea if I was doing so with a kind tone or a curt one, and yet you chose to assume. In my mind, it was helpful but to the point. You turned something that was supposed to be positive into a negative, not because anyone asked you to, but because you chose to, and wanted to.

The biggest reason I take issue with it is because that attitude has turned PF into a toxic cesspool. Maybe someone messes up and another just objectively says what went wrong, because that is what the group needs to figure out how to succeed on the next pull, and yet this is somehow unacceptable because people will get offended. So next time, the players instead of trying to collaborate and work and actually speaking about what went wrong just drop off without saying anything and the party disbands, which leads to a lot of frustration. Instead of chastising people for presenting information in a clear and concise manner newer raiders should be encouraged to take responsibility and not take things personally since they are working to raid together, and that requires communication. Not doing so and dancing around the subject makes more enemies than friends I assure you.

To quote your first paragraph "what you consider saving yourself a "waste of time" could still be a worthwhile and enjoyable experience for others even if it doesn't play out the way they hoped" the key understanding here is that they hope to succeed, and thus they will need objective knowledge in order to do so.

Nobody is going to come out happier having failed a raid tier than having beat it.

[Mcg55ss]

I'm glad you've been able to find some useful information, and that you can take what you personally need from it and apply it to your own situation as needs be. I know other people in your position can find it a bit daunting and wanted to add in such approaches to Savage are not universal, and it's more accessible than people sometimes realise and more than capable of being a source of fun challenges for groups to enjoy, since that can often be forgotten about amidst all the hubbub about rotations and numbers. I hope it works out for you.

It's ok I try to find good in everything if I can LoL. I hope it will work out too, I know it will be a lot of work from everyone's side not just mine but here's to hoping we can pull it together and accomplish our goals.

[Mcg55ss]

I just want to say thank you everybody for all your help, I will take several pieces of what I learned today up for consideration and bring up several other points in my groups discord. If anybody else leaves me anything else to help guide me tonight thank you but I won't check and respond to it till I get to work tomorrow hope you all have a good day.

[Myrany]

This is going to be the worst decision or I'll get some helpful info, basically the thing is apparently I'm starting a static within my free company. Right now we've got 5 that are 100% on board (2 of those 5 are 90 but still finishing endwalker) 1 iffy (she thinks she will bring everyone down and make people mad... basically lacks confidence). So potentially 6 people wanting to raid that I'm leading but here's the thing I have like 2 hours raid experience in this game (p5s kill). Everyone is new to raiding in this game (me and healer have long time WoW experience but nothing here except alliance raids) so far obviously I got to fill last few spots but again never raided really in this game so I'm sure 90% of my time will be dead but yea any tips or advice would be useful.

Keep your sense of humor. This could be a really great shared struggle helping to form a cohesive group in the long run if everyone can learn to laugh at their mistakes.