Dps jobs share at least 90% of their abilities

[EgilTheStressedMage]

Very true. In other MMOs I've played (among them EQ1, FFXI and LOTRO), there was some content you simply could NOT clear without a certain job/class. Some content required crowd control. Some content required a job with certain weapon or spell damage types since the enemies were resistant to some of it.

Leveling these other jobs/classes was a pain. Sometimes, if you were lucky, it just meant leveling another job and then changing to that job to run the content. In others, it meant rolling another character from scratch or spending days (weeks?) begging for help.

For a game where leveling jobs is easy, it boggles my mind that we've been forced into the design we have. The OP and this poster are spot on. And isn't just DPS. I did a deep-dive into tank abilities a few months ago. I can set up my tanks with nearly identical hotbars and play them blind. If I could blank out what the abilities were called (and their icons), any player could play any tank job at probably 95% efficiency if they can play ANY of the 4 tank jobs. That's how job design is in this game.

The only differences are the style of gear and the animations. That's pretty much it. We can't have a real blue mage since it would break the trifecta. We can't have a LOTRO-style warden because it would break the trifecta. We can't have an EQ-style enchanter since it would break the trifecta. We can't have an FFXI-style bard because it would break the trifecta. We can't have a true solo job because ALL jobs can solo.

However, some of this is just part and parcel of making a casual MMORPG. Sadly, the players tend to force developers into this position. When we have content (savage) that has tight DPS checks, players realized that the way to clear it with less gear upgrades is burst windows. Jobs that don't fit those windows were less desirable. SE's solution was just to fit more jobs into those burst windows over the last few expansions. That's just one example. There's a reason why players are so laser-focused on what jobs do the most DPS when played optimally. So, SE has done their best to make the choices more varied by leveling the playing field as much as possible.

Why not apply the PVP combat to PVE and see how that works for a bit? I’ve heard nothing but good things so far. Give it it’s own mode like Mann Vs Machine in TF2 and if enough people like it, throw out the current system and replace it with that.

[RyuDragnier]

Why not apply the PVP combat to PVE and see how that works for a bit? I’ve heard nothing but good things so far. Give it it’s own mode like Mann Vs Machine in TF2 and if enough people like it, throw out the current system and replace it with that.

That was the level of individuality we had originally in ARR and HW. But because certain jobs were just not taken because they were outclassed by others, the devs decided against that remaining. Basically people crunched numbers, certain jobs were lacking with certain utilities or synergy, and those jobs were almost never taken as a result. Thus leading to the dumbing down of jobs by the devs. We've tried this, and the playerbase itself is why we can't have nice things.

[TomsYoungerBro]

That was the level of individuality we had originally in ARR and HW. But because certain jobs were just not taken because they were outclassed by others, the devs decided against that remaining. Basically people crunched numbers, certain jobs were lacking with certain utilities or synergy, and those jobs were almost never taken as a result. Thus leading to the dumbing down of jobs by the devs. We've tried this, and the playerbase itself is why we can't have nice things.

Yet I look at omega clears and Bard is rarely taken in compared to Machinist and Dancer. Why are we homogenizing jobs again?

[Mikey_R]

That wouldnt be terribly hard.

Something akin to an elemental duelist, where you apply certain elemental debuffs to proc other effects when using different abilities.

You could even make it a status based gamplay where you apply dots/debuffs based on what elements combine.

Fire/Ice/Lightning/Earth

Fire+ice = water
Fire+Light = Explosive
Fire+Earth = Lava

Ice+Earth = Frozen
Ice+Lightning = ???

Lightning+Earth = ???

Each combination could apply different DoT or Status effects that help your party.

There we go, a job that doesn't have a gauge and plays extremely unique compared to anything else in the game.

Yes, nice base, however, based on this we can already assume we will have single target and AoE versions, you have already stated that there will be things that cause buffs/debuffs, it 'spends' gauge/marker (though whether it gets rid of the debuff or not, it is essentially the same. I suspect this model would only work if the debuffs are spent though). If we continue and speculate that the job will have some sort of buff and have some sort of damaging oGCD, we are already up to filling in 9 of the 14 from the OPs list, or about 64% of it. This is before we add in any insta casts, movement utility, any potential filer, whether it has a raid buff, some way to instantly give a mob multiple debuffs etc. For such a basic concept, it has already filled in so much, and that was the point I made. Any job is going to fulfil the criteria laid out by the OP, making it a pointless list.

For a game where leveling jobs is easy, it boggles my mind that we've been forced into the design we have.

Why should someone be forced to level a job they do not want to play just because a specific fight demands it?

Why not apply the PVP combat to PVE and see how that works for a bit?

Whilst PvP combat is fine for PvP, it would not translate into PvE at all. PvP is mostly about reactive or predicting your opponents actions and countering them, it has ways to disable players, or take them out of the picture for a time. Alot of these things you wouldn't be able to do in PvE as it would just either break fights or enemies would just be immune, making them non existent in the first place.

Yet I look at omega clears and Bard is rarely taken in compared to Machinist and Dancer. Why are we homogenizing jobs again?

Is it to do with homogenisation or is it to do with people not liking how Bard plays? Even looking at TOP logs, Bard is the highest rDPS, so that isn't a factor which further cements the idea that it is how the job plays and not the homogeneity of the role.

It's an ironic cycle actual. Players don't know what they want to play because none of the jobs have any outstanding identity or uniqueness mechanically,...

But Monk plays differently to Samurai who plays differently to Ninja who plays differently to Dragoon who plays differently to Reaper. But, you said they were all the same, which is blatantly false and this is true for all roles.

Sure, you can say they all conform to the 2 minute meta and have a combo. Brilliant, reducing things to such a vague notion is obviously going to make it seem like every job plays the same. You have to go deeper.

Monk has a completely unique way of cycling though it's actions, Dragoon has 2 combos, which are very rigid in they way they are used compared to Samurai who has 3 and is more flexible in the order, but Ninja only has 1 combo, the same as Reaper, but Ninja doesn't use the gauge to build up another gauge like Reaper does. What's that? Perfect Balance is basically Mudras? maybe from a distance, but there is a fundamental difference, Mudras do not do damage, whereas using PB stacks does. There is also multiple ways you can get the desired outcome from PB and since you do damage, it means there is an optimal way to go through, but you don't have that consideration when you use Mudras.

I could go on just on melees, however, I think I have got the point across. Note that this does not mean I think things cannot change, getting away from the 2 minute meta and giving more positionals to melee, even if it is just Monk, are just a couple of things that can change, however, as a concept, the jobs themselves do play differently.

[TomsYoungerBro]

Is it to do with homogenisation or is it to do with people not liking how Bard plays? Even looking at TOP logs, Bard is the highest rDPS, so that isn't a factor which further cements the idea that it is how the job plays and not the homogeneity of the role.

The question shouldn't be "Is bard getting neglected because of homogenization?", but rather "why are classes still getting neglected regardless of homogenization?" which was the point I was trying to make. If homogenization was done to stop classes getting neglected, then why are classes still getting neglected? In 6.2 savage Machinists were getting kicked out of parties as another instance. Look at Summoner clears compared to red mage or black mage...Homogenization has done nothing except make the game less enjoyable lmao.

Now as to why Bard is getting neglected? Well because Machinist and Dancer can do the same things while being more flexible. Machinist is an Adps class so looking at just rdps numbers won't tell the whole story either. Buff cap on P3 is also a problem for bard due to buffs. Bard also hates any form of downtime while Dancer and Machinist are fine. At the end of the day, Homogenization has only hurt the game.

[Mikey_R]

The question shouldn't be "Is bard getting neglected because of homogenization?", but rather "why are classes still getting neglected regardless of homogenization?" which was the point I was trying to make. If homogenization was done to stop classes getting neglected, then why are classes still getting neglected? In 6.2 savage Machinists were getting kicked out of parties as another instance. Look at Summoner clears compared to red mage or black mage...Homogenization has done nothing except make the game less enjoyable lmao.

If there was an inherent issue in the PRanged role due to homogenisation, do you not think the jobs would be MORE evenly played? If they all have the same issues, then it doesn't matter what you play. However, this is not the case. There is an intrinsic difference between BRD, DNC and MCH to the point where people just do not bring BRD as much, which means, they are not homogenised. The obvious factors here are the playstyle of Bard, aka, do people actually enjoy playing it and unique rotation they bring to the table and how it interacts with the fight.

To start, Bard playstyle as a whole. Whilst I do not frequent Bard threads, I do know that one of the major complaints about Bard is the disconnect between DoTs and the rest of the kit, they just do not feel impactful anymore. This is despite the fact, functionally speaking, having the songs proc every 3 seconds is essentially the same (minus the chance of a double proc). I'm sure there are other factors that can be said but as I said, I do not know them, but the feel of a job is an important thing to consider.

As for the other point, how the kit interacts with the fight. You have already stated that, due to the buff limit in P3 and the fact Bard gains nothing from downtime, that really limits what the job is capable of. ie. it does not suit the encounter at all. if you want to solve this issue, you have to either give Bard some way to gain resources in downtime and/or make the buff limit not an issue.

Now, how has homogenisation caused the above issues when the issues themselves have nothing to do with homogenisation? Infact, the claim that Bards kit does NOT fit with TOP is a clear indication that the jobs are not homogenised and instead is an example of what would happen if they were all unique.

You also have the opposite case for casters, as you have touched upon, however, how is Summoner absolutely dominating in terms of usage compared to BLM and RDM? Is it because SMN just has the tools to deal with the fight better than BLM and RDM? However, if there is this massive discrepancy, how is that a case for homogenisation when SMN has clearly gone down a different path compared to BLM and RDM.

Even going to tanks, DRK dominates the usage and tanks are more homogenised than DPS are. But, between DRKs kit, the high damage and ease of use, it makes it a top pick. It is worth noting however that tanks are much closer in usage when you look at savage (which does apply to every role mentioned in this post). TOP, being an ultimate fight, people are more likely to bring what they want in order to give them the best chance of beating the fight. This again highlights the fact that, despite the differences being small, it is still enough that people will pick one job over another just because it suits the fight better.

[TomsYoungerBro]

snip

You said a lot to not get my point...again. I did not say "homogenization" caused these issues, I clearly stated, and have continued to state, that homogenization hasn't solved the issue which its supposed to solve, which is neglect of certain classes.

[Frodnoxx]

But Monk plays differently to Samurai who plays differently to Ninja who plays differently to Dragoon who plays differently to Reaper. But, you said they were all the same, which is blatantly false and this is true for all roles.

Sure, you can say they all conform to the 2 minute meta and have a combo. Brilliant, reducing things to such a vague notion is obviously going to make it seem like every job plays the same. You have to go deeper.

Monk has a completely unique way of cycling though it's actions, Dragoon has 2 combos, which are very rigid in they way they are used compared to Samurai who has 3 and is more flexible in the order, but Ninja only has 1 combo, the same as Reaper, but Ninja doesn't use the gauge to build up another gauge like Reaper does. What's that? Perfect Balance is basically Mudras? maybe from a distance, but there is a fundamental difference, Mudras do not do damage, whereas using PB stacks does. There is also multiple ways you can get the desired outcome from PB and since you do damage, it means there is an optimal way to go through, but you don't have that consideration when you use Mudras.

I could go on just on melees, however, I think I have got the point across. Note that this does not mean I think things cannot change, getting away from the 2 minute meta and giving more positionals to melee, even if it is just Monk, are just a couple of things that can change, however, as a concept, the jobs themselves do play differently.

I guess it's a matter of perspective whether these examples play differently enough. If you take a step back and take into consideration every other kind of rotation in the game (example BRD, RDM, BLM) and the possibilities of rotations that could exist and do exist in other MMOs, it's not hard to see that in this game all the melee, tanks, and machinist have the same scheme with differing accents - the accents being the things you listed. Like yea there are significant differences but a zebra is a horse with stripes. I'm not saying that this scheme they all have is bad, I would just like some variety and creativity in new jobs that they introduce. Reaper and sage were extremely safe and familiar.

[Mikey_R]

I guess it's a matter of perspective whether these examples play differently enough. If you take a step back and take into consideration every other kind of rotation in the game (example BRD, RDM, BLM) and the possibilities of rotations that could exist and do exist in other MMOs, it's not hard to see that in this game all the melee, tanks, and machinist have the same scheme with differing accents - the accents being the things you listed. Like yea there are significant differences but a zebra is a horse with stripes. I'm not saying that this scheme they all have is bad, I would just like some variety and creativity in new jobs that they introduce. Reaper and sage were extremely safe and familiar.

The thing is, at what perspective do you look from? I am looking at rotations as a whole and comparing them, whilst you seem to want to strip away various things until you get to something that you can claim looks the same and then use that to say all jobs play the same. Take it to the extreme and you can claim that, since all jobs use the GCD and oGCDs, they all play the same. Obviously, this is an absurd simplification which noone should take seriously, but it should highlight the fact that, if you ignore too much of something, everything is going to look the same.

[Frodnoxx]

The thing is, at what perspective do you look from? I am looking at rotations as a whole and comparing them, whilst you seem to want to strip away various things until you get to something that you can claim looks the same and then use that to say all jobs play the same. Take it to the extreme and you can claim that, since all jobs use the GCD and oGCDs, they all play the same. Obviously, this is an absurd simplification which noone should take seriously, but it should highlight the fact that, if you ignore too much of something, everything is going to look the same.

One could take the opposite extreme and say that if you nitpick too much of something, everything is going to look different. That would be equally as absurd.

My perspective is looking at the rotations in comparison to other rotations in this game and in other similar tab targeting MMOs. I'm not stripping away or ignoring elements of melee's designs. I have acknowledged that there are differences and even said they were significant, but I am also saying that those differences fall short when looking at how rotations can be crafted at a foundational level.

We can analyze a rotation by breaking it down to its rotation design mechanics. Some examples of mechanics are: ogcds, cooldowns, debuff/buff maintenance, gauges, damage windows, procs/other rng.

In this game, a very, very prevelant mechanic is the static, linear sequence of actions. This includes combos in all of its forms, shapes, and sizes and also includes samurai sens, mudras, perfect balance, paladin magic, reaper shroud, machinist heat, dancer steps, red mage resolution, etc. You have a goal and to achieve that goal you execute an ordered sequence of actions. This is a great mechanic and I have no complaints about it. The issue is that it is sorely overused. This one mechanic - this one avenue of skill expression predominates all of the melee, tanks, and machinist rotations. While the other mechanics listed above are in these rotations as well, they are at their most rudimentary and exist just as add-ons to the rotations - artificial difficulty padding.