Dps jobs share at least 90% of their abilities

[TomsYoungerBro]

Is it to do with homogenisation or is it to do with people not liking how Bard plays? Even looking at TOP logs, Bard is the highest rDPS, so that isn't a factor which further cements the idea that it is how the job plays and not the homogeneity of the role.

The question shouldn't be "Is bard getting neglected because of homogenization?", but rather "why are classes still getting neglected regardless of homogenization?" which was the point I was trying to make. If homogenization was done to stop classes getting neglected, then why are classes still getting neglected? In 6.2 savage Machinists were getting kicked out of parties as another instance. Look at Summoner clears compared to red mage or black mage...Homogenization has done nothing except make the game less enjoyable lmao.

Now as to why Bard is getting neglected? Well because Machinist and Dancer can do the same things while being more flexible. Machinist is an Adps class so looking at just rdps numbers won't tell the whole story either. Buff cap on P3 is also a problem for bard due to buffs. Bard also hates any form of downtime while Dancer and Machinist are fine. At the end of the day, Homogenization has only hurt the game.

[Mikey_R]

The question shouldn't be "Is bard getting neglected because of homogenization?", but rather "why are classes still getting neglected regardless of homogenization?" which was the point I was trying to make. If homogenization was done to stop classes getting neglected, then why are classes still getting neglected? In 6.2 savage Machinists were getting kicked out of parties as another instance. Look at Summoner clears compared to red mage or black mage...Homogenization has done nothing except make the game less enjoyable lmao.

If there was an inherent issue in the PRanged role due to homogenisation, do you not think the jobs would be MORE evenly played? If they all have the same issues, then it doesn't matter what you play. However, this is not the case. There is an intrinsic difference between BRD, DNC and MCH to the point where people just do not bring BRD as much, which means, they are not homogenised. The obvious factors here are the playstyle of Bard, aka, do people actually enjoy playing it and unique rotation they bring to the table and how it interacts with the fight.

To start, Bard playstyle as a whole. Whilst I do not frequent Bard threads, I do know that one of the major complaints about Bard is the disconnect between DoTs and the rest of the kit, they just do not feel impactful anymore. This is despite the fact, functionally speaking, having the songs proc every 3 seconds is essentially the same (minus the chance of a double proc). I'm sure there are other factors that can be said but as I said, I do not know them, but the feel of a job is an important thing to consider.

As for the other point, how the kit interacts with the fight. You have already stated that, due to the buff limit in P3 and the fact Bard gains nothing from downtime, that really limits what the job is capable of. ie. it does not suit the encounter at all. if you want to solve this issue, you have to either give Bard some way to gain resources in downtime and/or make the buff limit not an issue.

Now, how has homogenisation caused the above issues when the issues themselves have nothing to do with homogenisation? Infact, the claim that Bards kit does NOT fit with TOP is a clear indication that the jobs are not homogenised and instead is an example of what would happen if they were all unique.

You also have the opposite case for casters, as you have touched upon, however, how is Summoner absolutely dominating in terms of usage compared to BLM and RDM? Is it because SMN just has the tools to deal with the fight better than BLM and RDM? However, if there is this massive discrepancy, how is that a case for homogenisation when SMN has clearly gone down a different path compared to BLM and RDM.

Even going to tanks, DRK dominates the usage and tanks are more homogenised than DPS are. But, between DRKs kit, the high damage and ease of use, it makes it a top pick. It is worth noting however that tanks are much closer in usage when you look at savage (which does apply to every role mentioned in this post). TOP, being an ultimate fight, people are more likely to bring what they want in order to give them the best chance of beating the fight. This again highlights the fact that, despite the differences being small, it is still enough that people will pick one job over another just because it suits the fight better.

[TomsYoungerBro]

snip

You said a lot to not get my point...again. I did not say "homogenization" caused these issues, I clearly stated, and have continued to state, that homogenization hasn't solved the issue which its supposed to solve, which is neglect of certain classes.

[Mikey_R]

You said a lot to not get my point...again. I did not say "homogenization" caused these issues, I clearly stated, and have continued to state, that homogenization hasn't solved the issue which its supposed to solve, which is neglect of certain classes.

The problem here is you are trying to attribute more towards homogenisation than homogenisation was intended to fix.

All homogenisation done was allow each role to have a specific set of tools to ensure one is not picked over another. This is why, all the PRanged have a silence and a raid wide mitigation tool. They all also have another tool in Nature's Minne/Curing Waltz and Dismantle, all designed to help deal with mechanics.

At no point was homogenisation considered when making the jobs DPS rotation, except maybe putting everything into the 2 minute meta. Different DPS rotations are obviously going to have different effects when it comes to downtime, which ultimate tends to have a lot more of when compared to any other encounter. At this point, any job that fares better at utilising downtime is going to have a bigger advantage than a job that cannot. However, unless you want to make every job exactly the same, which noone wants, then you are never going to have homogenisation in this regard.

So, again, stop trying to claim homogenisation has failed to to what it was never meant to achieve.

[TomsYoungerBro]

The problem here is you are trying to attribute more towards homogenisation than homogenisation was intended to fix.

All homogenisation done was allow each role to have a specific set of tools to ensure one is not picked over another.

Red Mage - Magic Barrier, Rez
Summoner - ???, Rez
Black Mage - ???, ???

Dang weird how the tools don't line up like how you said they are supposed to so one job isn't picked over another. It's like we keep trying to find a reason for homogenization to exist, but there is always a hole. Its like i've been trying to state from the start that homogenization hasn't solved what it was meant to do . It's only made the game worse. We can keep going for more examples of this if you'd like?

[Mikey_R]

Red Mage - Magic Barrier, Rez
Summoner - ???, Rez
Black Mage - ???, ???

Dang weird how the tools don't line up like how you said they are supposed to so one job isn't picked over another. It's like we keep trying to find a reason for homogenization to exist, but there is always a hole. Its like i've been trying to state from the start that homogenization hasn't solved what it was meant to do . It's only made the game worse. We can keep going for more examples of this if you'd like?

Weirdly enough, casters are the outlier in this. However, a res on BLM would be too strong due to infinite mana and SMN and BLM do both still have personal defensives, which Magick Barrier can also be used for, so it isn't as one sided as you make it out to be. Infact, with Summoner's being on a 60 second cooldown and having 2 charges, it makes it a very very useful and flexible tool that the other casters do not have, couple that with an easy job to play and you can see why SMN dominates the caster spot in TOP. This is the unique attributes of the job showing that it is much more favoured than the other 2 casters, which is, again, showing that having something more unique in the utility toolkit, as well as rotational differences, can make a job absolutely stand out as the clear favourite for a specific fight.

However, back to Bard, you still have not shown why homogenisation has meant that Bard doesn't get picked for TOP. Nothing you have stated shows this at all and infact, as I have stated multiple times now, every example you try and show proves the exact opposite. So again, stop trying to use homogenisation to talk about things it was never meant to fix.

[Absurdity]

However, a res on BLM would be too strong due to infinite mana

Would it really though? You already rarely run into the situation where MP is the limiting factor for chaining multiple raises. And in savage especially you're more likely to die to body-check mechanics before you ever run into MP issues from casting raise too much.

[TomsYoungerBro]

Weirdly enough, casters are the outlier in this. However, a res on BLM would be too strong due to infinite mana and SMN and BLM do both still have personal defensives, which Magick Barrier can also be used for, so it isn't as one sided as you make it out to be. Infact, with Summoner's being on a 60 second cooldown and having 2 charges, it makes it a very very useful and flexible tool that the other casters do not have, couple that with an easy job to play and you can see why SMN dominates the caster spot in TOP.

Summoner is the most played caster in TOP because of the massive amount of movement requirements, especially in P1, P4, and P6. It is not brought at all because of its tools. Tell me you don't do high-end content without telling me you don't do high-end content.

Magick Barrier is a raid-wide mit that should be seldom used as a "personal" mitigation...

However, back to Bard, you still have not shown why homogenisation has meant that Bard doesn't get picked for TOP.

I've never once argued this. You really need to go back to the original person I quoted and actually use your eyes.