This game is on a terrible state right now.

[Padudu]

That's attributed to several reasons, be it the method of obtaining them. People have endlessly complained of the method and the choice or lack thereof, and their response was to just tie it to tomestones, giving people the greatest degree of flexibility possible. Even relics back in the day of ShB for step-2 were churnable within a couple of hours if you so wished, and similarly could do many stages concurrently. I'd argue the grind was just as easy back then, frankly.

Good then you're of a fairly cohesive argument and we can quite as happily conclude that the product has always practically been in this state. It's absolutely nothing new in this regard, as much as people would like to parade otherwise.

Sorry if it looks fucky, mobile is not playing nice with me

Who was arguing that it was new? People are saying that it just simply.. isn't considered content, or at the very least, content that people want to do.

[Kaurhz]

Sorry if it looks fucky, mobile is not playing nice with me

Who was arguing that it was new? People are saying that it just simply.. isn't considered content, or at the very least, content that people want to do.

It happens regularly on practically every single thread. HW/SB so great, amazing, gib more plz. Was able to do more in less time, hurray. etc.,

You'll find one on the first page of this thread #4 post in fact if you're devoid of references. (Also sorry, I'm known to go on tangents at times)

[Padudu]

It happens regularly on practically every single thread. HW/SB so great, amazing, gib more plz. Was able to do more in less time, hurray. etc.,

You'll find one on the first page of this thread #4 post in fact if you're devoid of references. (Also sorry, I'm known to go on tangents at times)

Ooo okay yeah they're smoking lol. I think relics just haven't hit a sweet spot tbh. The grind is either too much (AR, HW) or too little (EW). I think SHB had a good amount of grind, the only problem is that it's locked behind sorta dead content (well, dead if you try to solo it. Easier if you go through the Bozjan discords). I don't think I've ever found a person personally to enjoy ARR/HW grind LOL at all.

[Kaurhz]

Ooo okay yeah they're smoking lol. I think relics just haven't hit a sweet spot tbh. The grind is either too much (AR, HW) or too little (EW). I think SHB had a good amount of grind, the only problem is that it's locked behind sorta dead content (well, dead if you try to solo it. Easier if you go through the Bozjan discords). I don't think I've ever found a person personally to enjoy ARR/HW grind LOL at all.

It was OK, but it came at the expense of it being some of the worst-designed relic systems we've had, the Resistance relics were designed with not an ounce of longevity in mind with the underlying content, being relegated to effectively the same treatment as Bozja wherein you're almost encouraged to use Discord etc., to even have a remotely pleasurable experience with the relic. Was OK on patch, but it very quickly started to show its colours and I can say had I not gone through the process of getting them all in the same expansion as their release then I would not be hard pressed going for them, and this is someone who is actually enticed by achievement points.

ARR I have mixed feelings for. If I were to be told it's the worst relic I'd be inclined to agree with some measure, but if they were to say it had no potential then I'd disagree vehemently. in fact, the books were a great system, they just need(ed) to have a system like Wondrous Tales, aside from that it had people doing almost anything and everything so it was difficult. Relics should be like that rather than FATE-farming simulators exclusively, which arguably Eureka was.

It only seems like ShB/EW was just the same old if you naively compare the content 1-to-1. But they weren't 1-to-1. An HW/SB alliance raid was worth more than an EW alliance raid because you actually need to learn what's going on. Some mechanics, like disorientation, the rotating exaflare etc. were first introduced in alliance raids. By contrast an EW alliance raid felt samey even for the first time. Eureka Orthos is worth less than PotD, because PotD was fresh when it was introduced in HW. Orthos isn't new: people have literally done the same ol' already. If you compare PotD to Orthos 1:1 and you don't see the problem I don't know what else to tell you.

Beyond the copy-paste content we now get in EW, all classes and jobs have been dumbed down. This removes a huge chunk of playtime dedicated to mastering a class, both combat and DoH. It probably took me more time to learn HW MCH than to learn EW SMN, RDM, WAR, DRK, GNB, WHM, SCH, AST, SGE combined, and the latter was also more boring. Only EW BLM counts as real content these days.

People call the predictable content delivery stale but that's only because you can expect the same mechanics, same playstyle, and these days even the same storyline from each patch.

And yes, most of the side content they make is incredibly shallow. But Island Sanctuary has somehow managed to be even shallower than Eureka Anemos, and the only saving grace is the criterion/variant dungeons. You know, if they just stuck to their guns and kept pumping out more Eureka/Bozja style content and used it as a vehicle for making creative 48-man raids and unique job playstyles with actions they could've gone far. The reason they didn't is obviously because it's expensive to do so and "spare no expenses" is a lie.

By the same extension with respect to PotD, the exact same argument could nearly enough be made in the case of Heaven of High, and not only this if you were to actually compare the Exploratory content of HW (Diadem) to that of Eureka Anemos and Pagos, you will largely find that if you were to have slapped HW relic weapons inside of Diadem then you would find an experience not too far from that Anemos or Pagos, so I don't really think you need to look too far from Stormblood to see the pivots made in the copy paste department when HoH didn't really evolve much in the area from PotD, we had, a dog with an AoE buff, and some magicites that were innovated upon. Outside of that, it was a copy-and-paste experience. The same again could be said if you were to look at the original Diadem and how well it maps to Eureka Anemos and Pagos, bar the leveling system behind it.

If I am being frank, I didn't really find much in the way of elaboration or difficulty with respect to the HW alliance raids, and similarly, the SB alliance raids just felt like sponges. I felt more like I was playing the game of 'how long before the lala falls asleep' (Given that was my char at the time) If you think HW crafting was a staple of any form of sophistication then I don't really know what to tell you.

Eureka Anemos is just as shallow as any other content we've had, and similarly is the case with Pagos, as per my earlier paragraph being a system that was introduced as early as HW in the most basic form, yet the only difference, was, what? Stripped of the aesthetic and remodeled with a leveling system included. The fact this was all they could do even with already having Diadem as the base structure (which included an emergency mission), only serves to show how disappointing Anemos and Pagos actually were, and far, far worse than Island Sanctuary, I would argue. With respect to Eureka/Bozjan-style content that should not be the requirement to introduce 48-man content, or content similar. Furthermore, they should not need to keep this rote formula, especially with your acknowledgment that they started crap and ended out fine. There's no reason they couldn't expand this self-same system to Criterion/Variant with the logos etc., Or have it separate from exploratory content entirely. Given you've stated Eureka and Bozja leads me to believe that the exploratory content itself didn't take your intrigue just the fact it had a large-scale raid included, and some nuance with the logos/essences system - Which I'll be frank with you, is a good system, but it is also a system that has come long past the date of being tied to a particular piece of content, and I would argue should be more applicable to the wider scope of content rather than should be part of x.

They should be looking at newer things, now granted, I don't think this should directly come at the expense of all content, e.g., I still think the expansion should have a 48-man raid. But I don't think every expansion should have x and y (e.g., a Bozja and Eureka) that's very quickly just running into a copy-and-paste job, this is why I was highly against deep dungeon, because I think they long, long hit their creativity with that, or are willing., but if they can at least cycle it without, again, necessarily coming at the expense of 48-man raids then that's a good state.

[Incinerator2]

t was OK, but it came at the expense of it being some of the worst-designed relic systems we've had, the Resistance relics were designed with not an ounce of longevity in mind with the underlying content, being relegated to effectively the same treatment as Bozja wherein you're almost encouraged to use Discord etc., to even have a remotely pleasurable experience with the relic. Was OK on patch, but it very quickly started to show its colours and I can say had I not gone through the process of getting them all in the same expansion as their release then I would not be hard pressed going for them, and this is someone who is actually enticed by achievement points.

ARR I have mixed feelings for. If I were to be told it's the worst relic I'd be inclined to agree with some measure, but if they were to say it had no potential then I'd disagree vehemently. in fact, the books were a great system, they just need(ed) to have a system like Wondrous Tales, aside from that it had people doing almost anything and everything so it was difficult. Relics should be like that rather than FATE-farming simulators exclusively, which arguably Eureka was.



By the same extension with respect to PotD, the exact same argument could nearly enough be made in the case of Heaven of High, and not only this if you were to actually compare the Exploratory content of HW (Diadem) to that of Eureka Anemos and Pagos, you will largely find that if you were to have slapped HW relic weapons inside of Diadem then you would find an experience not too far from that Anemos or Pagos, so I don't really think you need to look too far from Stormblood to see the pivots made in the copy paste department when HoH didn't really evolve much in the area from PotD, we had, a dog with an AoE buff, and some magicites that were innovated upon. Outside of that, it was a copy-and-paste experience. The same again could be said if you were to look at the original Diadem and how well it maps to Eureka Anemos and Pagos, bar the leveling system behind it.

If I am being frank, I didn't really find much in the way of elaboration or difficulty with respect to the HW alliance raids, and similarly, the SB alliance raids just felt like sponges. I felt more like I was playing the game of 'how long before the lala falls asleep' (Given that was my char at the time) If you think HW crafting was a staple of any form of sophistication then I don't really know what to tell you.

Eureka Anemos is just as shallow as any other content we've had, and similarly is the case with Pagos, as per my earlier paragraph being a system that was introduced as early as HW in the most basic form, yet the only difference, was, what? Stripped of the aesthetic and remodeled with a leveling system included. The fact this was all they could do even with already having Diadem as the base structure (which included an emergency mission), only serves to show how disappointing Anemos and Pagos actually were, and far, far worse than Island Sanctuary, I would argue. With respect to Eureka/Bozjan-style content that should not be the requirement to introduce 48-man content, or content similar. Furthermore, they should not need to keep this rote formula, especially with your acknowledgment that they started crap and ended out fine. There's no reason they couldn't expand this self-same system to Criterion/Variant with the logos etc., Or have it separate from exploratory content entirely. Given you've stated Eureka and Bozja leads me to believe that the exploratory content itself didn't take your intrigue just the fact it had a large-scale raid included, and some nuance with the logos/essences system - Which I'll be frank with you, is a good system, but it is also a system that has come long past the date of being tied to a particular piece of content, and I would argue should be more applicable to the wider scope of content rather than should be part of x.

They should be looking at newer things, now granted, I don't think this should directly come at the expense of all content, e.g., I still think the expansion should have a 48-man raid. But I don't think every expansion should have x and y (e.g., a Bozja and Eureka) that's very quickly just running into a copy-and-paste job, this is why I was highly against deep dungeon, because I think they long, long hit their creativity with that, or are willing., but if they can at least cycle it without, again, necessarily coming at the expense of 48-man raids then that's a good state.

Of course HoH was a copy-paste job. It wasn't good. The contention isn't whether there have always been copy-pastes. It's that the copy-pasting has gotten worse in ShB/EW. This applies to every piece of content. Dungeons have become copy-paste since mid-HW. ARR dungeons were unironically the best dungeons this game has to offer. Simple things like Dzemael's Crystal Veil mechanic adds a lot of variety to ARR dungeons. No one needs a labyrinth and my fondness for ARR dungeons has never been due to its non-linearity. And in comparison HW and SB dungeons were all pretty stale. So no, no one is saying copy-pasting never existed. It's that it has gotten progressively worse. Same deal for jobs. HW introduced Whistle which you said added a degree of sophistication. It is obviously not some otherworldly mechanic but it's certainly more sophisticated than ShB/EW crafting. So again, the problem is that it has gotten worse instead of being built upon. Not that it was always some pinnacle of gameplay. And finally, with alliance raids, I certainly experienced way, way more wipes in Mhach and Dun Scaith and Ivalice than I ever did in ShB/EW. So even if it's easier for you the fact that things can go wrong makes it far more exciting for me.

Eureka started off poorly. But there is a place for open-world exploratory content. It builds in-game community, something that basically is relegated to Discord now. There just needs to be something more than FATEs.

[Kaurhz]

Of course HoH was a copy-paste job. It wasn't good. The contention isn't whether there have always been copy-pastes. It's that the copy-pasting has gotten worse in ShB/EW. This applies to every piece of content. Dungeons have become copy-paste since mid-HW. ARR dungeons were unironically the best dungeons this game has to offer. Simple things like Dzemael's Crystal Veil mechanic adds a lot of variety to ARR dungeons. And in comparison HW and SB dungeons were all pretty stale. So no, no one is saying copy-pasting never existed. It's that it has gotten progressively worse. Same deal for jobs. HW introduced Whistle which you said added a degree of sophistication. It is obviously not some otherworldly mechanic but it's certainly more sophisticated than ShB/EW crafting. So again, the problem is that it has gotten worse instead of being built upon. Not that it was always some pinnacle of gameplay. And finally, with alliance raids, I certainly experienced way, way more wipes in Mhach and Dun Scaith and Ivalice than I ever did in ShB/EW. So even if it's easier for you the fact that things can go wrong makes it far more exciting for me.

Eureka started off poorly. But there is a place for open-world exploratory content. It builds in-game community, something that basically is relegated to Discord now. There just needs to be something more than FATEs.

Whistle was a degree of sophistication, it was a degree of sophistication which they in many cases failed to actually capitalize on or provide a good enough set of recipes to use. It was used for gear leapfrogging, however, unfortunately, the actual uses of this would not really become apparent until later parts of Stormblood, which was still several years after the release, and even this was fairly nuanced in and of itself since you also had the first universal set of scrip gear in the form of Handking.

Further, I wouldn't necessarily view the overall system for crafting as complex just because it included Whistle, if you were to look at the fundamental system of crafting and arguably in general it was, for the most part lacking complexity and engagement. E.g., you weren't manually crafting because the system was complex, you were manually crafting simply because the underlying touches were Hasty Touch, and something that you wanted to eliminate as much as possible by converting excess CP (Be it via Melds or ToT) into Basic Touch or Precise Touch. The actual logic you had composing of macros were no more, nor less sophisticated than the manual crafting that 99% of people were doing.

This was entirely the problem, where there was nuance with crafting there were absolutely only a few niche use cases for it, and unless it's something that could be much more widely adopted was just a wasted system. It was also a horrifically unbalanced system wherein if you learned even the fundamentals - You could pull very inane stunts such as the one below, this is something that never, ever should have been doable, as fun as it was. Contrary to my post in that thread, I do think Whistle would have been more harm than good if introduced with current experts - It's a system that downright needed redesigning more than anything.


Job complexity aside or lack thereof, the player base is largely just better now than it was. To put it into perspective, do you think people would be wiping in droves like they once were had Weeping City and Dun Scaith been introduced now instead of in HW? The only wipes I've experienced have been from some unfortunate sprout getting the meteor markers in Ozma and thus wiping their party. otherwise it goes down just as all the others do.

I'm going to half-agree with you here in that there is a place for exploratory content, but it is a place that should exist natively in the general overworld zones. e.g., Ahm Araeng, Tempest. The fact that players would need to do this content and that it is not experienced naturally in the standard zones is a big problem. It shouldn't exist as side-content it should be naturally embedded in every single zone in the game.

Edit: That I got that tangent off my mind; I think the copy and pasting job has been in varying amounts and to a varying degree. For the most part with many games, you'll inevitably find yourself going down this route. e.g., SE didn't think people liked deep dungeon, so didn't inc. in ShB - People complained, so they reintroduced it. The same would apply to exploratory content sooner than later when they've exhausted their creativity with it. E.g., Logos were just copied and pasted into Essences. BA was just copied and pasted from EM in that function, I would like to say (to some degree), just as CLL and Zadnor were copied and pasted features from BA.

Further replies I'll likely attach to this post or subsequent ones provided the discussion is worthwhile (Probably nearing cap on my post-count for the day)

[Incinerator2]

Whistle was a degree of sophistication...

Yes, Whistle would be harmful with current experts because it starts with a MaMa spam and goes on forever, with or without delineations. But why is the solution to just REMOVE the system? Why not balance it and add to it to make it better? The core gameplay of Whistle if you forgo the infinite loop to me is to simultaneously balance multiple stacks - Comfort Zone, Manipulation II, the Whistle stacks, SH stacks, Ingen stacks, Innovation stacks, the IQ stacks, etc. all at once, and the decision on what to do is not always clear at all. This is also subject to RNG. If they expanded on this and made it interact with expert recipe conditions they could've made a far more interesting system. Having even 100 or 200 steps is honestly not a big deal if the rewards were commensurate. The key issue they would need to solve is to make it so that you can't go on infinitely long or that it is not a good idea to do so (for example by scaling rewards inversely with the number of steps taken).

People shit on games like Destiny II for removing content, but FF14 has removed so many promising systems over the years.

do you think people would be wiping in droves like they once were had Weeping City and Dun Scaith been introduced now instead of in HW?

Of course not, but shouldn't the gameplay scale with the average skill level of the playerbase? Even if it's not a 1:1 scaling so that new player can catch up? As of right now I don't even think it's a flatline, I seriously think alliance raid and dungeon difficulty have gone down while average skill level has gone up, which makes literally no sense.

but it is a place that should exist natively in the general overworld zones

Yes, though I doubt they have the tech.

copy and pasting job has been in varying amounts and to a varying degree

You obviously can't prevent every sort of copy-pasting (every innovation is a combination of previous innovations after all), but PotD -> HoH -> Orthos is seriously beyond the pale. The key hope is that they copy-paste less, not that they never make a dungeon again since it'll have trash and bosses like previous dungeons.

[Incinerator2]

It happens regularly on practically every single thread. HW/SB so great, amazing, gib more plz. Was able to do more in less time, hurray. etc.,

It only seems like ShB/EW was just the same old if you naively compare the content 1-to-1. But they weren't 1-to-1. An HW/SB alliance raid was worth more than an EW alliance raid because you actually need to learn what's going on. Some mechanics, like disorientation, the rotating exaflare etc. were first introduced in alliance raids. By contrast an EW alliance raid felt samey even for the first time. Eureka Orthos is worth less than PotD, because PotD was fresh when it was introduced in HW. Orthos isn't new: people have literally done the same ol' already. If you compare PotD to Orthos 1:1 and you don't see the problem I don't know what else to tell you.

Beyond the copy-paste content we now get in EW, all classes and jobs have been dumbed down. This removes a huge chunk of playtime dedicated to mastering a class, both combat and DoH. It probably took me more time to learn HW MCH than to learn EW SMN, RDM, WAR, DRK, GNB, WHM, SCH, AST, SGE combined, and the latter was also more boring. Only EW BLM counts as real content these days.

People call the predictable content delivery stale but that's only because you can expect the same mechanics, same playstyle, and these days even the same storyline from each patch.

And yes, most of the side content they make is incredibly shallow. But Island Sanctuary has somehow managed to be even shallower than Eureka Anemos, and the only saving grace is the criterion/variant dungeons. You know, if they just stuck to their guns and kept pumping out more Eureka/Bozja style content and used it as a vehicle for making creative 48-man raids and unique job playstyles with actions they could've gone far. The reason they didn't is obviously because it's expensive to do so and "spare no expenses" is a lie. Eureka and Bozja started out crap and ended fine and ready to be built on in the next expansion.