This game is on a terrible state right now.

[Kaurhz]

Very true. “Fun” is overrated these days. What we need is a GOAL, right? Run 10,000 ARR dungeons for this particular trinket. Run 20,000 solo instances as WAR for an ugly mount that you’ll never use. Now that’s what I call content!

There’s a reason why FFXIV is the fourth most-played MMO right now despite being a clone and spiritual successor to two out of the other three. But FFXIV players are so above the concept of “fun”, right? Just give players an obscure cheevo from 2015, slap some numbers on that bad boy and they're all happy, right?

Is watching paint dry a form of content too?

I don't know but if people are willing to eat up that farming an umpteenth number of FATEs either for past relics or for Eureka-esque relics as 'content' and fun, then yes the exact same can be applied to achievements provided they offer a reward that the person deems worth working toward.

Hurray, got a relic just in time for 7.0 before it gets routinely plunged into irrelevancy by Level 95 to most likely never be used again.

Or is the cookie just not tasty enough for you?

[Padudu]

I don't know but if people are willing to eat up that farming an umpteenth number of FATEs either for past relics or for Eureka-esque relics as 'content' and fun, then yes the exact same can be applied to achievements provided they offer a reward that the person deems worth working toward.

Hurray, got a relic just in time for 7.0 before it gets routinely plunged into irrelevancy by Level 95 to most likely never be used again.

Or is the cookie just not tasty enough for you?

The cookie wasn't tasty enough for most people, apparently. That's why people bitched endlessly about ARR, HW relic grind lmao. SE listened and that's why the EW relic grind isn't really that much of a grind so far, is it?

Let's not pretend that making people grind endlessly for achievements, relics, or anything like that is oodles amount of content, or is what people really want to do. People bitched endlessly about BLU going nowhere too, and that's a grind to a dead end wall.

[Kaurhz]

The cookie wasn't tasty enough for most people, apparently. That's why people bitched endlessly about ARR, HW relic grind lmao. SE listened and that's why the EW relic grind isn't really that much of a grind so far, is it?

Let's not pretend that making people grind endlessly for achievements, relics, or anything like that is oodles amount of content, or is what people really want to do. People bitched endlessly about BLU going nowhere too, and that's a grind to a dead end wall.

That's attributed to several reasons, be it the method of obtaining them. People have endlessly complained of the method and the choice or lack thereof, and their response was to just tie it to tomestones, giving people the greatest degree of flexibility possible. Even relics back in the day of ShB for step-2 were churnable within a couple of hours if you so wished, and similarly could do many stages concurrently. I'd argue the grind was just as easy back then, frankly.

Good then you're of a fairly cohesive argument and we can quite as happily conclude that the product has always practically been in this state. It's absolutely nothing new in this regard, as much as people would like to parade otherwise.

Dungeons were always corridor simulators with very very little in the way of threatening design.
Relics were always garbage that recycled older content and gave a false illusion of bountiful content, under the guise that the cookie for once was tasty enough for you.
The content was a once-in-once-out-esque piecemeal. People were hardly on the edge of their seats getting excited over Doman Reconstruction aka the weekly piecemeal. Just as people weren't lining up in droves to experience the umpteenth failure of exploratory Diadem.

My point is, and as I have said at an earlier point in time, absolutely nothing is new with this respect and people are just looking at their older experiences with rose-tinted glasses, and could hardly see the fact that if they were to release an expansion the exact same as HW or SB right now, then absolutely nothing would change, if you were starved with EW, you'd be just as starved had they released any other expansion at this point in time. Well, minus the fact we'd be complaining about Pagos and/or poetics.

I enjoy the memes I make, it's another goal I have. I have an imaginary quota too.

Gotta keep goal driven, or you go crazy in this world you know?

Basically how the game has always been then. Farming 5000 Fieldcraft leves is no different whatsoever from farming 200 FATEs for an Atma or for your little luminous crystals. That's my point, and somehow people bent over the illusion that the latter consists of more content than the former is bizarre or is more content than the other for that matter.

My point also stands that some people just have a knack for those things and enjoy it, and that some people apparently feel personally attacked by this idea, e.g., yourself. At any rate have a good day talking to a brick wall /shrug.

[Padudu]

That's attributed to several reasons, be it the method of obtaining them. People have endlessly complained of the method and the choice or lack thereof, and their response was to just tie it to tomestones, giving people the greatest degree of flexibility possible. Even relics back in the day of ShB for step-2 were churnable within a couple of hours if you so wished, and similarly could do many stages concurrently. I'd argue the grind was just as easy back then, frankly.

Good then you're of a fairly cohesive argument and we can quite as happily conclude that the product has always practically been in this state. It's absolutely nothing new in this regard, as much as people would like to parade otherwise.

Sorry if it looks fucky, mobile is not playing nice with me

Who was arguing that it was new? People are saying that it just simply.. isn't considered content, or at the very least, content that people want to do.

[Kaurhz]

Sorry if it looks fucky, mobile is not playing nice with me

Who was arguing that it was new? People are saying that it just simply.. isn't considered content, or at the very least, content that people want to do.

It happens regularly on practically every single thread. HW/SB so great, amazing, gib more plz. Was able to do more in less time, hurray. etc.,

You'll find one on the first page of this thread #4 post in fact if you're devoid of references. (Also sorry, I'm known to go on tangents at times)

[Padudu]

It happens regularly on practically every single thread. HW/SB so great, amazing, gib more plz. Was able to do more in less time, hurray. etc.,

You'll find one on the first page of this thread #4 post in fact if you're devoid of references. (Also sorry, I'm known to go on tangents at times)

Ooo okay yeah they're smoking lol. I think relics just haven't hit a sweet spot tbh. The grind is either too much (AR, HW) or too little (EW). I think SHB had a good amount of grind, the only problem is that it's locked behind sorta dead content (well, dead if you try to solo it. Easier if you go through the Bozjan discords). I don't think I've ever found a person personally to enjoy ARR/HW grind LOL at all.

[Kaurhz]

Ooo okay yeah they're smoking lol. I think relics just haven't hit a sweet spot tbh. The grind is either too much (AR, HW) or too little (EW). I think SHB had a good amount of grind, the only problem is that it's locked behind sorta dead content (well, dead if you try to solo it. Easier if you go through the Bozjan discords). I don't think I've ever found a person personally to enjoy ARR/HW grind LOL at all.

It was OK, but it came at the expense of it being some of the worst-designed relic systems we've had, the Resistance relics were designed with not an ounce of longevity in mind with the underlying content, being relegated to effectively the same treatment as Bozja wherein you're almost encouraged to use Discord etc., to even have a remotely pleasurable experience with the relic. Was OK on patch, but it very quickly started to show its colours and I can say had I not gone through the process of getting them all in the same expansion as their release then I would not be hard pressed going for them, and this is someone who is actually enticed by achievement points.

ARR I have mixed feelings for. If I were to be told it's the worst relic I'd be inclined to agree with some measure, but if they were to say it had no potential then I'd disagree vehemently. in fact, the books were a great system, they just need(ed) to have a system like Wondrous Tales, aside from that it had people doing almost anything and everything so it was difficult. Relics should be like that rather than FATE-farming simulators exclusively, which arguably Eureka was.

It only seems like ShB/EW was just the same old if you naively compare the content 1-to-1. But they weren't 1-to-1. An HW/SB alliance raid was worth more than an EW alliance raid because you actually need to learn what's going on. Some mechanics, like disorientation, the rotating exaflare etc. were first introduced in alliance raids. By contrast an EW alliance raid felt samey even for the first time. Eureka Orthos is worth less than PotD, because PotD was fresh when it was introduced in HW. Orthos isn't new: people have literally done the same ol' already. If you compare PotD to Orthos 1:1 and you don't see the problem I don't know what else to tell you.

Beyond the copy-paste content we now get in EW, all classes and jobs have been dumbed down. This removes a huge chunk of playtime dedicated to mastering a class, both combat and DoH. It probably took me more time to learn HW MCH than to learn EW SMN, RDM, WAR, DRK, GNB, WHM, SCH, AST, SGE combined, and the latter was also more boring. Only EW BLM counts as real content these days.

People call the predictable content delivery stale but that's only because you can expect the same mechanics, same playstyle, and these days even the same storyline from each patch.

And yes, most of the side content they make is incredibly shallow. But Island Sanctuary has somehow managed to be even shallower than Eureka Anemos, and the only saving grace is the criterion/variant dungeons. You know, if they just stuck to their guns and kept pumping out more Eureka/Bozja style content and used it as a vehicle for making creative 48-man raids and unique job playstyles with actions they could've gone far. The reason they didn't is obviously because it's expensive to do so and "spare no expenses" is a lie.

By the same extension with respect to PotD, the exact same argument could nearly enough be made in the case of Heaven of High, and not only this if you were to actually compare the Exploratory content of HW (Diadem) to that of Eureka Anemos and Pagos, you will largely find that if you were to have slapped HW relic weapons inside of Diadem then you would find an experience not too far from that Anemos or Pagos, so I don't really think you need to look too far from Stormblood to see the pivots made in the copy paste department when HoH didn't really evolve much in the area from PotD, we had, a dog with an AoE buff, and some magicites that were innovated upon. Outside of that, it was a copy-and-paste experience. The same again could be said if you were to look at the original Diadem and how well it maps to Eureka Anemos and Pagos, bar the leveling system behind it.

If I am being frank, I didn't really find much in the way of elaboration or difficulty with respect to the HW alliance raids, and similarly, the SB alliance raids just felt like sponges. I felt more like I was playing the game of 'how long before the lala falls asleep' (Given that was my char at the time) If you think HW crafting was a staple of any form of sophistication then I don't really know what to tell you.

Eureka Anemos is just as shallow as any other content we've had, and similarly is the case with Pagos, as per my earlier paragraph being a system that was introduced as early as HW in the most basic form, yet the only difference, was, what? Stripped of the aesthetic and remodeled with a leveling system included. The fact this was all they could do even with already having Diadem as the base structure (which included an emergency mission), only serves to show how disappointing Anemos and Pagos actually were, and far, far worse than Island Sanctuary, I would argue. With respect to Eureka/Bozjan-style content that should not be the requirement to introduce 48-man content, or content similar. Furthermore, they should not need to keep this rote formula, especially with your acknowledgment that they started crap and ended out fine. There's no reason they couldn't expand this self-same system to Criterion/Variant with the logos etc., Or have it separate from exploratory content entirely. Given you've stated Eureka and Bozja leads me to believe that the exploratory content itself didn't take your intrigue just the fact it had a large-scale raid included, and some nuance with the logos/essences system - Which I'll be frank with you, is a good system, but it is also a system that has come long past the date of being tied to a particular piece of content, and I would argue should be more applicable to the wider scope of content rather than should be part of x.

They should be looking at newer things, now granted, I don't think this should directly come at the expense of all content, e.g., I still think the expansion should have a 48-man raid. But I don't think every expansion should have x and y (e.g., a Bozja and Eureka) that's very quickly just running into a copy-and-paste job, this is why I was highly against deep dungeon, because I think they long, long hit their creativity with that, or are willing., but if they can at least cycle it without, again, necessarily coming at the expense of 48-man raids then that's a good state.

[Incinerator2]

It happens regularly on practically every single thread. HW/SB so great, amazing, gib more plz. Was able to do more in less time, hurray. etc.,

It only seems like ShB/EW was just the same old if you naively compare the content 1-to-1. But they weren't 1-to-1. An HW/SB alliance raid was worth more than an EW alliance raid because you actually need to learn what's going on. Some mechanics, like disorientation, the rotating exaflare etc. were first introduced in alliance raids. By contrast an EW alliance raid felt samey even for the first time. Eureka Orthos is worth less than PotD, because PotD was fresh when it was introduced in HW. Orthos isn't new: people have literally done the same ol' already. If you compare PotD to Orthos 1:1 and you don't see the problem I don't know what else to tell you.

Beyond the copy-paste content we now get in EW, all classes and jobs have been dumbed down. This removes a huge chunk of playtime dedicated to mastering a class, both combat and DoH. It probably took me more time to learn HW MCH than to learn EW SMN, RDM, WAR, DRK, GNB, WHM, SCH, AST, SGE combined, and the latter was also more boring. Only EW BLM counts as real content these days.

People call the predictable content delivery stale but that's only because you can expect the same mechanics, same playstyle, and these days even the same storyline from each patch.

And yes, most of the side content they make is incredibly shallow. But Island Sanctuary has somehow managed to be even shallower than Eureka Anemos, and the only saving grace is the criterion/variant dungeons. You know, if they just stuck to their guns and kept pumping out more Eureka/Bozja style content and used it as a vehicle for making creative 48-man raids and unique job playstyles with actions they could've gone far. The reason they didn't is obviously because it's expensive to do so and "spare no expenses" is a lie. Eureka and Bozja started out crap and ended fine and ready to be built on in the next expansion.