SCH - Faerie Galmour: Discuss!

[ForsakenRoe]

I actually would like to see the tether replace Embrace, not tied to the gauge, and receive the proper adjustments to stand in for your faerie's normal healing. The visual effect can be made less intense that way it's not too distracting for the person you're tethering to, but the faerie would follow them instead of you unless you place them somewhere. The main reason why I'd like this change is it would stop the faerie from constantly being in some type of casting loop and would make the command to use Whispering Dawn or Fey Blessing faster and more responsive. It would also make it easier to have more actions that stem from the faerie.

So... Rouse?

[ty_taurus]

So... Rouse?

No, the action directly replaces Embrace entirely. The faerie no longer has the ability to cast random heals on people and only has consistent healing through the tether, which lasts until the tether is broken or until you recast Aetherpact/target another player with it. Thus, the faerie moves around to follow the tethered ally, or stays in place and casts nothing while tethered until commanded to do so. This makes your pet more responsive to commands since she can't be halfway through a cast when commanded to use something like Fey Blessing.

In contrast to Kardia... Kardia would be faster since it's tied to GCD casts, but only DPS casts, and if you stop casting for whatever reason, you get no Kardia healing. Aetherpact would be slower since it's based on server tics, but will always trigger every 3 seconds regardless of what you're casting or whether you're casting or not.

[Renathras]

lol. I started FFXIV in post-ShB. It is my first MMO. What you say is literally not what I took away from Hall of the Novice. At no point did I walk away with the idea that I should keep the party at full health at all times. If anything I walked away with some notion in between "the only HP that matters is the last" and "keep everyone at 100%." The former feels scary and risky if you're a n00b. The latter is a fool's errand because the tank will almost always be under 100% unless you're heal spamming them -- which is just as boring as spamming Stone/Glare/Broil/etc. 24/7.

I'm more saying that's literally what it says.

People like to read into the game a lot of things it doesn't explicitly say. For example, people here love bringing up the CNJ quest as "Slyphie, the character that 'Just wants to heal' was bad and the game said she was bad and needed to use attack magic to try and subtly hint towards players they should be using attack spells!" when the game was clear her issue wasn't wanting to be a healer (she's hardly the only character in the game that aspires to heal instead of harm; take for example the girl in Crystarium in 5.5 talking about wanting to be a medic with potions rather than a fighter like her friends), it was that she was using her life force to do it, which would kill her just as it killed her mother. The text of the NPCs/quest was actually pretty explicit about THAT, in fact, yet people ignore what the lore/game ACTUALLY said because they WANT it to have said something else. And then you look at both the SCH quests (which existed at the same time) and the Hall of the Novice (which was added later, in HW maybe?), and see that they are also not saying "Good Healers should be DPSing all the time" or even "Good Healers should be DPSing as much as possible" or even just "Good Healers should balance healing with damage dealing" or even merely "Good Healers should be dealing damage when players are safe".

The closest it comes is "You MAY deal damage when it's safe to do so and your allies are uninjured".

Point being, whether or not it's good gameplay, the game itself never tells new Healers (or any Healers) that they should be doing damage other than, I suppose, SGE, and then only because of how Kardia actually works. I'll have to look up the SGE quests again, but I'm not sure it actually tells you "do damage" so much as the mechanics of the Job work that way and by level 70, anyone picking up a new Job knows to skim its tooltips and the brief intro tutorial the first time you put on the Job stone says something about it.

[ForsakenRoe]

Agreed on the Sylphie thing, it's a split in what the lore says and what people interpreted it as. I think though, an alternative way to explain why people might be using it in the 'derogatory' is not because of 'Sylphie was refusing to do damage spells', but 'Sylphie was refusing to listen to people who have been doing this shit for way longer than her, and know way more about it, so she should stop being so petulant and try listening to the advice before dismissing it out of hand'

MAY be time to weave in some offensive magics. IF your allies are UNINJURED. HEALING is your PRIMARY CONCERN.

Collectively, this is saying "Do damage only when all your allies are topped off at full health (uninjured) and only if it doesn't place you in harms way (in a telegraph) or prevent you from healing an ally who is not full health". It doesn't say "not in danger of dying" it says "if your allies are uninjured". That's the difference between "the only HP that matters is the last HP" and "if your allies are not at 100%, get them to 100%".

OK, so I'm in P6S. The raidwide hits us all down to 20%. I press PI, Rapture twice, everyone is full health. The next raidwide damage is like 30 or something seconds away (idk I've not been in there in a couple months at this point). How is this not 'do damage when allies are safe' category, and therefore an issue that needs to be addressed? I'm healing everyone to full before doing the damage (rather than 'enough to just barely survive the next raidwide'), as per what you say the HOTN is trying to teach. The fact I'm solving the 'healing to be done' with 2 GCDs, and then going back to doing damage for about 15, is the problem. Less time between raidwides (but making them a little weaker comparatively) ala Barb would help, but you've said several times that Barb was 'hell in week 1' (it wasn't that bad), so that method of solving the problem seems to be out. Increasing how hard the raidwide hits for is just going to put even more dependence on Mit (and specifically non-healer mit) which already caused problems this tier, so that's out. So what other method can we solve this downtime issue that we haven't ruled out yet? Oh right.

And even if the lesson were 100% direct in saying 'DPS only when its safe to, your main focus is on keeping allies alive', the sheer lack of healing required compared to how much we can pump out at a moment's notice means that the previous parameters and 'DPS quite a lot and heal only enough to keep the team barely alive' are synonymous. When it's by design that its possible for two BIS healers working together to get their combined GCD heal casts into the low single digits, I don't think it's really possible to 'go back' to a time where the healing was more GCD focused. It'd be like when WOW put all their damage buff CDs onto the GCD to stop 'Swifty Macros', people lost their shit, this would likely be no different

[Renathras]

Agreed on the Sylphie thing, it's a split in what the lore says and what people interpreted it as. I think though, an alternative way to explain why people might be using it in the 'derogatory' is not because of 'Sylphie was refusing to do damage spells', but 'Sylphie was refusing to listen to people who have been doing this shit for way longer than her, and know way more about it, so she should stop being so petulant and try listening to the advice before dismissing it out of hand'

The problem with that argument is a lot of accused "Sylphies" have been doing this as long or longer (not to mention appeal to experience isn't always valid), so that doesn't work, either.

How is this not 'do damage when allies are safe' category, and therefore an issue that needs to be addressed?

Because the game doesn't say "when allies are safe" in the training that you're appealing to.

Note here I'm not saying what you're doing isn't optimal. I'm contesting the argument that the game TELLS PEOPLE to play that way. Consider that the game does not, at ANY point, even mention the difference between a GCD and oGCD, much less tell players how to heal primarily using the latter nor what weaving is.

Less time between raidwides (but making them a little weaker comparatively) ala Barb would help, but you've said several times that Barb was 'hell in week 1'

Because of the movement. If the fight had less required movement, then it would have been tuned about right. I've said several times that the design of weaker but more frequent IS the way to go, with the caveat that it needs to allow healers to stand still for GCD AOE casts. BarbEx didn't do that, and that was the reason it was "hell in week 1" (it WAS that bad, actually). The damage profile itself wasn't a problem. So that method of solving the problem is actually the ideal here.

In other words, weaker but more frequent healing requirements NEEDS to be where it can be solved by more frequent GCD heal use. When the fight is designed for high movement that precludes GCD heal use (aside from instant cast GCD heals, which are the minority), that's the problem here, not the more frequent but smaller damage hits.

Increasing how hard the raidwide hits for is just going to put even more dependence on Mit (and specifically non-healer mit) which already caused problems this tier, so that's out.

Disagree on this as well. The resounding response from Healers to P5-8S was not really that the healing part was bad, it's that Healers had to rely on DPS (and to a lesser extent, Tanks). The result here is that this method could ALSO work if mitigations are shunted to the Healer kits, not sprinkled around the other Roles instead of Healers.

So what other method can we solve this downtime issue that we haven't ruled out yet? Oh right.

Why do we need an "other method" when either or both of the above can work just fine?

When it's by design that its possible for two BIS healers working together to get their combined GCD heal casts into the low single digits, I don't think it's really possible to 'go back' to a time where the healing was more GCD focused. It'd be like when WOW put all their damage buff CDs onto the GCD to stop 'Swifty Macros', people lost their shit, this would likely be no different

Except, as you noted, they did this with BarbEx. Moreover, all they'd really have to do is prune some of the oGCDs or convert some of them into GCDs in an Expansion patch and gg.

Besides, your solution is for Healers to have more involved damage rotations where there's a noticeable gap between skill floor and skill ceiling Healer players. You don't think people would "lose their shit" over that? Really?

People "lost their shit" over a damage gap to the point PLD underwent a major rework and MCH was given potency buffs AND a new party utility tool because of the gap between them. Do you think in a game where people obsess over a 0.7% DPS gap that this would go over well? Like...reallllly? "But good players wouldn't have that gap!" which leads to the exact thing Yoshi P is trying to avoid - a bunch of people quitting Healing because the damage part can't be kept up with.

[fulminating]

You cannot beat current enrage checks without healers contributing, thus healers need to glare more /beesknees less. Yoship is also entirely wrong on healers more often than not - see basically anything he’s claimed and the reality of the situation.

As has been pointed out numerous times, the penalty in normal content for being unable to keep up with increased healing requirements is death and unable to keep up with damage is a slower clear. One of these is significantly more likely to inspire conflict than the other.

[Sebazy]

Besides, your solution is for Healers to have more involved damage rotations where there's a noticeable gap between skill floor and skill ceiling Healer players. You don't think people would "lose their shit" over that? Really?

Still with this point....


Again I ask, what's the actual problem with it?

Have you actually looked at the logs for a typical 24 man? People fail HARD in casual content just fine already. It's going to make absolutely no difference if they fail hard smashing one button, or playing tick tack toe with 4.

It's not going to make a difference in Dungeons, Alliance Raids or Extremes. It *may* make a difference in the later floors of a Savage tier or Ultimate but again. If someone can't handle a basic DPS rotation, proc system or additional dots, I'm wondering what they are doing in that content anyway.

Meanwhile if we bump up healing requirements in casual content high enough to the point where someone like me would actually notice and enjoy it? That's going to crush casual 24 man enjoyers. I find it genuinely strange that you firmly believe that any extra damage complexity will blow apart the game, yet don't seem to be capable of understanding that there are a concerning amount of healers who struggle to keep up with the minimal healing demands we have currently.

[Allegor]

SCH is the healer I play the least, but I did like Selene over Eos, and since my main gametime is spent on roulettes, it's not like I needed the extra healing anyways. The interrupt was horrendeously slow, but I liked to give out the haste buff, it went with the aesthetic of being a support rather than straight up healer like WHM, and the mass Esuna - as niche as it was - came in handy in situations like Dun Scaith.

Imo Selene could've easily been reworked to be SCH's "cleric stance" but oh well. If we get a Feo Ul glamour, I'd probably play it more often

[AmiableApkallu]

Have you actually looked at the logs for a typical 24 man? People fail HARD in casual content just fine already. It's going to make absolutely no difference if they fail hard smashing one button, or playing tick tack toe with 4.

It's not going to make a difference in Dungeons, Alliance Raids or Extremes. It *may* make a difference in the later floors of a Savage tier or Ultimate but again. If someone can't handle a basic DPS rotation, proc system or additional dots, I'm wondering what they are doing in that content anyway.

Meanwhile if we bump up healing requirements in casual content high enough to the point where someone like me would actually notice and enjoy it? That's going to crush casual 24 man enjoyers. I find it genuinely strange that you firmly believe that any extra damage complexity will blow apart the game, yet don't seem to be capable of understanding that there are a concerning amount of healers who struggle to keep up with the minimal healing demands we have currently.

Tuning healing requirements high enough to make healers necessary means the healers in the party are no longer allowed to make mistakes, because if they hit the floor, that's a wipe. I can't see that working in "casual" content unless everyone in the party also gets, say, a charge or two of a Duty Action called "Phoenix Down."

On the other hand, non-optimal DPS rotations just means encounters drag on for longer, which is indistinguishable from non-optimal DPS from people making mistakes, hitting the floor, and getting raised.

[ty_taurus]

Tuning healing requirements high enough to make healers necessary means the healers in the party are no longer allowed to make mistakes, because if they hit the floor, that's a wipe. I can't see that working in "casual" content unless everyone in the party also gets, say, a charge or two of a Duty Action called "Phoenix Down."

On the other hand, non-optimal DPS rotations just means encounters drag on for longer, which is indistinguishable from non-optimal DPS from people making mistakes, hitting the floor, and getting raised.

I’d just remove the 1-only limitation on phoenix downs, unrestricted their use from combat, give them a 5 minute cooldown but are instant, and award them to players for clearing roulettes. High-End Duties then restrict the use of phoenix downs in combat, and “disable phoenix downs” becomes a DF option like minimum item level or silence echo. It seems silly to me how the most iconic item next to the standard potion is unusable in 95% of circumstances.