SCH - Faerie Galmour: Discuss!

[Renathras]

Interesting even back in ARR, people were saying this:

Despite all this I still get bitched at for not dpsing during dungeon runs. Well excuse me for not having a constant need to keep my abilities off cooldown. I'll update you guys once I want to actually play summoner.

Hint. I'm NOT a summoner with extra healing potency. So don't treat me like one.

Edit: No surprise on the downvotes. You guys need to understand one thing -- I play healer because I don't like DPS'ing, and this is coming from a previous Bard main. It's boring, it's stressful, and it's mindnumbing. I play healer because I like healing, and no part of its core job description does it say I need to DPS, that's secondary. The whole point of healer DPS is supplementing your groups core DPS, but if it's unnecessary then I don't want to do it. Unless it's Coil or I'm trying to break a speedrun record, I don't want to put in the extra trouble to shave a few minutes off a run. You guys don't pay my $15 a month subscription, don't tell me how I should enjoy the game. If the fact that I'm not shaving 2-3 minutes of a dungeon run is ruining your fun, then I'm sorry but you have other priorities you need to really consider. If you're so worried about time, then run with your static group wearing all BiS.

You can call me lazy, there's a shade of truth in there. I only DPS when I'm running with a static group, but for DF pugs (on dungeons no less), I don't feel like it. Stop telling me to DPS. You're not automatically entitled to 2 minutes of your life just because I'm a scholar. I do my core job, nothing else, and if you want healer DPS then find me in coil or party with one who's willing to go with you, otherwise sit your ass down and continue with your dungeon run because I can at least assure you that we won't wipe from any deaths

"He doesn't want to DPS, he must be a trash healer". I don't.... like I can't even understand the train of thought here. I'm not sure how my unwillingness to DPS in DF dungeons suddenly makes me a bad healer, but whatever helps you guys sleep at night. I'm not exactly striving to push 100% in anything outside of coil, but if you're going to judge me as a person for it, then I guess it speaks a lot about you as a person for getting upset and throwing personal insults over 2-3 minutes in a video game.

EDIT: As in, hyper on that side of things. Even I'm not that anti-damage, lol

[Sebazy]

Interesting even back in ARR, people were saying this:

That thread of discussion was everywhere back then. DPSing vs non DPSing healers was a huge topic pretty much from mid to late ARR until early SB when Cleric Stance getting neutered broke the back of the argument and effectively smushed the two sides together wether they liked it or not

It's actually pretty rare to see a healer in level cap content that's not throwing any DPS at all now. Back then it was fairly common.

[Semirhage]

That thread of discussion was everywhere back then. DPSing vs non DPSing healers was a huge topic pretty much from mid to late ARR until early SB when Cleric Stance getting neutered broke the back of the argument and effectively smushed the two sides together wether they liked it or not

It's actually pretty rare to see a healer in level cap content that's not throwing any DPS at all now. Back then it was fairly common.

This was always the strangest of bizarre takes to me. I've played multiple MMOs before this one. FF14 is the first game I've ever seen with I pLaY a HeALeR TO heAL, HeALeRS SHouLd HeAL ONLY advocacy group. I've never seen an RPG where anyone's argued this. It's the weirdest box to cage the healer role in, and it's so anti-reality that it hurts my brain.

[RyuDragnier]

This was always the strangest of bizarre takes to me. I've played multiple MMOs before this one. FF14 is the first game I've ever seen with I pLaY a HeALeR TO heAL, HeALeRS SHouLd HeAL ONLY advocacy group. I've never seen an RPG where anyone's argued this. It's the weirdest box to cage the healer role in, and it's so anti-reality that it hurts my brain.

Keep in mind in other MMOs healers mostly just supported with buffs and all that as well. Damage moves were there, but if you were using them literally you had nothing to do, which did not happen that often. One of the MMOs I played I was having to throw out buffs left and right when I wasn't healing, and I got to use a single damage move once every 30s-1m depending on where we were at and the group. I have a sneaking suspicion that was part of the mindset, the fact that healers in other MMOs were mostly just plain support, DPS was something you just didn't do that often.

[Semirhage]

Keep in mind in other MMOs healers mostly just supported with buffs and all that as well. Damage moves were there, but if you were using them literally you had nothing to do, which did not happen that often. One of the MMOs I played I was having to throw out buffs left and right when I wasn't healing, and I got to use a single damage move once every 30s-1m depending on where we were at and the group. I have a sneaking suspicion that was part of the mindset, the fact that healers in other MMOs were mostly just plain support, DPS was something you just didn't do that often.

It's also partially just me; the first MMO I played, that was the expectation for healers. Buffing, healing, and /sit, with an occasional damage spell. Everyone could use a pet in that game, and the zeitgeist had healers use the standard Eos-style healing one (unless they had something rarer). I did that for like...five minutes, then noticed just how infrequently I *actually* had to heal the tank. Yeah, it was more hectic with a shorter GCD than FF14, so the typical casting profile looked something like

regen-> (3 GCDs) -> cure-> (1 GCD) -> regen-> (1 GCD) -> buff -> (1 GCD) -> cure -> (4 free GCDs)

so it was less obvious than the vast monotonous stretches of no damage that current FF14 has, granted. But I saw those gaps, realized how little of the heavy lifting the healing pet could take off there, and swapped it for a damage dealer. People may have found it odd when they saw me pull the damage pet out, but noticed they stayed alive just fine. Those gaps have always existed. And as long as games aren't designed to be white-knuckle always on point healing catastrophe scenarios, they always will. Community expectations are weird; they often refuse to understand what the concept of a skill ceiling means, and that you can't just...design it out of a class. It's going to be there. The design determines whether it's boring or not.

[Liam_Harper]

This was always the strangest of bizarre takes to me. I've played multiple MMOs before this one. FF14 is the first game I've ever seen with I pLaY a HeALeR TO heAL, HeALeRS SHouLd HeAL ONLY advocacy group. I've never seen an RPG where anyone's argued this. It's the weirdest box to cage the healer role in, and it's so anti-reality that it hurts my brain.

It's funny because in games like WoW you have a whole range of dps buttons with the option to talent into more ...and you heal non-stop. Sometimes you barely get the chance to press your dps buttons. FF14 is one of the few games that won't let you play healer to heal and the Sylphies will argue to the death about changing any of it.

Most healers in FF14 are simply terrible players. I mean, we have people who claim P5-8s is a big jump in healing when you heal less than in Normal modes in other games. It's still a joke of a tier in terms of healing.

Sylphies play healer to turn their brain off and be carried and "I play healer to HEAL" is a convenient excuse. Suggest making content much harder and the argument swings to "I play this game to have FUN and relax" and "think of the new players, they'd be stressed!".
FF14 players would be absolutely delighted with a healer that simply has a 400 potency DoT with infinite duration, pulses a passive HoT on the raid, one aoe heal with 1500 potency and that's it. It'd be the most played job by a mile. They honestly might as well do that and cater to their clearly intended audience instead of stringing their handful of remaining MMO players along on false hope. The majority of players who want to actually play a game quit for other MMO's or rolled dps long ago.

[Semirhage]

FF14 players would be absolutely delighted with a healer that simply has a 400 potency DoT with infinite duration, pulses a passive HoT on the raid, one aoe heal with 1500 potency and that's it. It'd be the most played job by a mile. They honestly might as well do that and cater to their clearly intended audience instead of stringing their handful of remaining MMO players along on false hope. The majority of players who want to actually play a game quit for other MMO's or rolled dps long ago.

This is what I want. It wouldn't end the arguments (because let's face it, nothing ends MMO players bickering over job design and balance), but it at least would settle the eternal Sylphie clamoring for what amounts to a green limited job. You want to feel skilled and accomplished with an APM of 6? Have at it. Be my guest. Watch your visual novel movie and pretend you're an accomplished video game player. Dance in Limsa with your legend title having pressed your heal spell 15 times in the whole instance. You go you.

[Deceptus]

This was always the strangest of bizarre takes to me. I've played multiple MMOs before this one. FF14 is the first game I've ever seen with I pLaY a HeALeR TO heAL, HeALeRS SHouLd HeAL ONLY advocacy group. I've never seen an RPG where anyone's argued this. It's the weirdest box to cage the healer role in, and it's so anti-reality that it hurts my brain.

It's because FFXIV is **extremely** casual from the get go, despite the game telling you in multiple instances that DPS as a healer is recommended. The bar for job competency is extremely low.

Most healers in FF14 are simply terrible players. I mean, we have people who claim P5-8s is a big jump in healing when you heal less than in Normal modes in other games. It's still a joke of a tier in terms of healing.

It's not just a healer thing. The general playerbase as a whole is pretty bad. I was in Tower of Zot yesterday and I, as a Sage, did more damage on trash packs AND bosses than both of the "DPS".

Yes I think one or both were new, and I completely understand that, but by level 80 you should at minimum know a basic ST rotation and AoE rotation. That's not asking for much.

Hell, I even joked at the beginning when they said they were new: "The goal is to do more damage than the healer". They failed that goal that day.

Just a setup to consolidate the fairies in 1 button to give that free hot bar a new ability for 7.0. A returning, improved ability? That’s what I’m assuming.

CBU3 and repackaging removed abilities and giving them back later. Name a better duo.

[Osmond]

…….all I can think of to add a new ability, that cost fairy gauge(they need tools to use that thing and not just a tether) is……lol. It’ll be funny if it does a AoE crit buff of 3% for 50 fairy gauge. May as well be the shield healer to have crit buffs as its identity. Let SGE have the high dmg DPS.

[Renathras]

This was always the strangest of bizarre takes to me. I've played multiple MMOs before this one. FF14 is the first game I've ever seen with I pLaY a HeALeR TO heAL, HeALeRS SHouLd HeAL ONLY advocacy group. I've never seen an RPG where anyone's argued this. It's the weirdest box to cage the healer role in, and it's so anti-reality that it hurts my brain.

Keep in mind in a lot of MMOs, it was expected that Healers only used their damaging abilities in solo content. In WoW for example, Vanilla, BC, ARGUABLY Wrath (arguably because Tanks could practically solo Heroics), and Cata moreso than most (I don't remember Mists, but think it was like BC or Wrath), Healers were expected to NOT use damage abilities unless they didn't cost MP, because MP management was actually a thing. This was most true in Cata, because they also hit like wet noodles, meaning you often had to devote GCDs (well, WoW's equivalent) to chain casting your weak, long cast, low healing but mana efficient cure so that you wouldn't get overwhelmed later. It was actually a big deal when Resto Druid Wrath became 0 mana cost, and Resto Shaman's Lightning Bolt actually helped them recover mana, because before then, they just didn't do much DPSing.

There wasn't an argument of "I play Healer to heal" because the community-wide position was "Healers should heal only". It was so strong, there WASN'T a "Healers should DPS!" advocacy group until Wrath (because content was often undertuned), which made Cata an even stronger wake-up call. I think the next place it popped up was around Warlords pre-patches with ONE exception, which was Mistweaver/Fistweaver Monk, because it was designed in such a way it could heal in melee by doing attacks, and Disc was reworked into a similar vein - Disc before Mists (or was it before Cata?) was just a somewhat weaker Holy Priest that used Power Word: Shield more. Now, this was never IRONCLAD - some Healers it was more and some less (Holy Priest, for example, had very mana INefficient attacks, like Smite, but PLD had some low mana costing attacks on short CDs that could be useful for the party, like Judgement of Light/Wisdom for the party/raid to generate health/mana by attacking the boss) - but it was generally given that unless you were using specific classes/specs, you did not do damage unless there was just no healing that needed doing, and then the damage you did was the stuff with no MP cost ("I'm going to WAND you to death!!") unless you just ALSO had a big surplus of MP and were probably in the party with the Shadow Priest mana battery.

The WoW community strongly held to the "healers should heal only" position because its own roots were players coming over from Everquest, where Healers typically DID only heal, often in turns with other Healers, with some sitting/meditating (IN BATTLE, mind you) for mana recovery when it wasn't their turn to be actively healing.

So no, FF14 is not the first game - unless you've never seen WoW in its heyday? - that had this attitude, nor is it "the weirdest box" for people to think "healer, the role that heals", nor "anti-reality".

It's not even that odd in FF14, since ARR and arguably HW for WHM's played this way as well for most content/most players. Partly because a lot of ARR players were either coming over from FF11 (where WHM also did the heal/buff only thing) or WoW (where many of its Healers, including the closest WHM parallel, Holy Priest, also did the heal/buff only thing for the most part). Note that while modern WoW healers are more offensive (even Holy Priest) like FF14, that WASN'T the case back in the day, nor how players approached it due to the Everquest roots.

Indeed, it's very much true that MMO healing originated with "healers should heal only". That is the original and default state of MMO healers.

Keep in mind in other MMOs healers mostly just supported with buffs and all that as well. Damage moves were there, but if you were using them literally you had nothing to do, which did not happen that often. One of the MMOs I played I was having to throw out buffs left and right when I wasn't healing, and I got to use a single damage move once every 30s-1m depending on where we were at and the group. I have a sneaking suspicion that was part of the mindset, the fact that healers in other MMOs were mostly just plain support, DPS was something you just didn't do that often.

Exactly this.

Just a setup to consolidate the fairies in 1 button to give that free hot bar a new ability for 7.0. A returning, improved ability? That’s what I’m assuming.

Hm, maybe so. I wonder what it'll be...

Though honestly, SCH could do with 1-2 less buttons...but meh.

It's funny because in games like WoW you have a whole range of dps buttons with the option to talent into more

NOW, yes. That wasn't always the case. In BC, Holy Paladin had just Judgement, I think. Excorcism specifically for Undead, and Holy Shock if you weren't using it for healing. Judgement and Holy Shock each had CDs, meaning you couldn't spam them (the CDs were relatively shortish, I think Judgement was 30 seconds at the time and Holy Shock may have been similar). Late BC and into Wrath, Judgement's CD was lowered to I think 6 seconds. That was your attack "rotation". Judgement of Light/Wisdom every 6 seconds. Oh, and you got to use Hammer of Wrath every 30 seconds or so when the enemy was in Execute (less than 20% HP) phase. Oh, and you only had two general use heals, Flash of Light (quick, fast, mana efficient, relatively weak) and Holy Light (slower, more mana costly, big heal)...and Holy Shock. Paladin didn't get their first AOE heal until the Cataclysm pre-patch, not counting that one Wrath glyph that made either FoL or HL do a light splash heal (maybe if used on the Beacon of Light, I forget). I think Consecration was still a Protection or Retribution talent until...Wrath, maybe?

I'm going to say Holy Priest had only Shadow Word: Pain, Smite, and the one with the CD (30 sec, later 12?) that did the fire from the sky and put a holy burning DoT on the target, and Smite was HORRIBLY mana inefficient for the damage done, so you couldn't chain cast it. I remember leveling it with only three abilities and using some Disc talents for Wand Mastery (autoattack - yes, seriously, this was the norm) until the Shadow tree got to Shadowform around level 40 or so. Then it was Mind Flay spam for Jesus until level cap. And that was in BC with a Blood Elf where I had a second DoT (I think) that...I think they later got rid of all the Race specific spells like that. I think they picked one or two to make baseline and dumped the rest. And then later, dumped those as well.

Also: Stop using "Sylphies" as a derogatory term. Actually, just stop using it at all. It's not ever going to help you. And if you have to accuse people who disagree with you of wanting to be carried, you need to reevaluate your (ad hominem fallacy) position. At best, it makes you seem a toxic person/jerk, and that's at best. Especially since most of those same players ask for the game to be made harder, but on the HEALING side of things. And I don't know what FF14 players you know, but I know of no one that would be "absolutely delighted" with a DoT + passive HoT pulses and a single AOE 1500 potency heal. I highly doubt that would, in fact, be "the most played job by a mile".

But hey, only one way to find out...

It's because FFXIV is **extremely** casual from the get go, despite the game telling you in multiple instances that DPS as a healer is recommended.

No, it really doesn't.

It's like I said, most people that picked up FFXIV originally came from games where the norm was that Healers did few or even no damage, and if they did, only did so during specific times and once they really knew an encounter and knew when it was safe to do so and that they'd have absolutely no mana issues doing so OR were playing a class specifically designed to do some damage to augment or facilitate...its healing.

And no, the CNJ questline isn't everything, and the SCH quest only talks about healing and shielding, not about DPSing. But we've had THAT conversation before here...